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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 18, 2011 11:17:10 GMT -5
While there are lots of porducts that color the sound, that isn't IMO what makes a good sound. In fact I aim for as neutral a sound as possible. It may not seem that way since I just bought a tube DAC, but it is really just for fun.
Even with neutral sound there is better sound. For me, having only the Chord to reference as an expensive DAC, it offered a more spacious sound. That is, there was more separation between instruments, and the sound stage was bigger. But how much is this worth?
I also wrote a review that is posted on here re: my experience with the USP-1 vs. Chord CPA-2500 preamp. I don't like to spend money where I don't have to, but at the same time I won't pretend that EMO or other budget brands are equivilent to the more expensive brands. They are great, and perform very well, but you can get better. Everyone has to decide for themselves if it is worth it.
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Post by rclark on Mar 18, 2011 15:59:22 GMT -5
What exactly is it that makes these things so expensive anyway? The components are inexpensive plastics and metals, and circuits are, well, made by robots. What makes a $6000 unit .... Worth it? Design? And even then, why?
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 18, 2011 16:22:44 GMT -5
What exactly is it that makes these things so expensive anyway? The components are inexpensive plastics and metals, and circuits are, well, made by robots. What makes a $6000 unit .... Worth it? Design? And even then, why? Intangibles. |
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Post by geebo on Mar 18, 2011 16:37:19 GMT -5
So I've got mine, and I love it, but I'm curious about it. There are no professional reviews. There are some forum people who have commented on it, but I was kind of hoping to have a better idea of where it sits in the DAC food chain compared to other DAC's. Emotiva touts it as punching above its weight or competing against DAC's that cost more, but it would be nice to know more about that, to see more comparisons, or any, even just one, professionally. Where does it stand? I have one standing next to my desk at work that was just delivered today. ;D |
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Post by stuofsci02 on Mar 18, 2011 16:43:39 GMT -5
What exactly is it that makes these things so expensive anyway? The components are inexpensive plastics and metals, and circuits are, well, made by robots. What makes a $6000 unit .... Worth it? Design? And even then, why? A lot of it works out to volume. Lets take the XDA-1 and assume they can bring it to a customer for $200 cost, and they expect to sell 10,000 unit. They sell it for $300 and they have $1,000,000 to cover the overhead costs for design etc. and make a profit for that product. Now assume company X makes a DAC that is better then the XDA-1 but it costs them $800 per unit to bring it to the customer. With the higher price tag they may only be able to sell 1,000 units since fewer people are interested in more expensive DACs. So then it is necessary to price the unit at $1800 to have the same money to cover overhead etc for the product. |
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Post by rclark on Mar 18, 2011 17:18:42 GMT -5
So I've got mine, and I love it, but I'm curious about it. There are no professional reviews. There are some forum people who have commented on it, but I was kind of hoping to have a better idea of where it sits in the DAC food chain compared to other DAC's. Emotiva touts it as punching above its weight or competing against DAC's that cost more, but it would be nice to know more about that, to see more comparisons, or any, even just one, professionally. Where does it stand? I have one standing next to my desk at work that was just delivered today. ;D You're going to love it |
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Post by tjhenry on Mar 18, 2011 17:42:07 GMT -5
Hi,
I thought I'd add my experience to the discussion. I posted a comparison in the Emo forum of the DACMagic versus the XDA-1. I level matched the 2 DACs using my 840A integrated amp inputs. In summary, I preferred the XDA-1. The differences weren't huge but they were noticeable. The biggest improvement (in my system) made by the XDA-1 was the increased detail compared to the DACMagic. For example, a Harry Belafonte song had background orchestration that was more easily heard and audience noise such as coughing was also more easily heard. Microdynamics were better with the XDA-1. For example, emphasis on guitar strums was more easily heard.
My only complaint with the XDA-1 was what I felt to be less defined low bass notes. For example, a bass line on an upright bass was great until the notes being played dropped into the lower registers. You could hear the well defined bass notes in the middle registers, but they became indistinct and boomy when the notes went lower.
Long story short, I felt the performance of the XDA-1 was better than the DACMagic in almost all areas. I sold the DACMagic soon after receiving the XDA-1.
I also just bought a Benchmark DAC1 on Audiogon and will be comparing it with the XDA-1. My curiosity to hear something with repeated outstanding reviews made me buy it so I could know if or how much of the high end I might be missing. When I've finished with the XDA-1/DAC1 comparison, I'll post my thoughts here.
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Post by rclark on Mar 18, 2011 18:21:48 GMT -5
thank you for that. How much is the DacMagic you used and who makes it?
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Post by tjhenry on Mar 18, 2011 20:24:17 GMT -5
rclark,
The DACMagic is made by Cambridge Audio. It currently retails for $ 479. It has received lots of good reviews with the common theme in the reviews being great sound for the dollar.
As an example, the DACMagic was included in a Stereophile review of the YBA WD202 as well as the Benchmark DAC1. The reviewer ultimately preferred the DAC1 ($995) by a slight margin over the YBA ($ 879), which he felt was in turn better than the DACMagic ($ 479).
Hope that helps.
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Post by GMan on Mar 18, 2011 23:56:57 GMT -5
What exactly is it that makes these things so expensive anyway? The components are inexpensive plastics and metals, and circuits are, well, made by robots. What makes a $6000 unit .... Worth it? Design? And even then, why? Don't know about all manufacturers but some (i.e. Bryston) hand assemble all of their products using local labor. It can take up to a week to build and benchtest one unit. |
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Post by rclark on Mar 19, 2011 2:28:46 GMT -5
I'm talking about the circuits and the electronics involved, not the act of soldering.
I'm sure they are nice pieces though
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Post by vishal on Mar 26, 2011 16:26:03 GMT -5
In my tests the XDA did not match up to the Benchmark DAC-1. It lost in all areas incl soundstage width, separation, depth, definition of bass.
That said it is phenomenal for the price. If I didn't have the amp/speakers that I do have I would have been hard pressed to tell the difference.
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Post by tjhenry on Mar 29, 2011 12:39:40 GMT -5
Vishal,
Did you have the Magnepan 1.7s for your comparison between the XDA-1 and DAC1? Any thoughts on an overall rating for the XDA-1 compared to the DAC1? I know it's hard to assign a number, but for example, in your opinion did the XDA-1 provide 80 % of the performance of the DAC1? Obviously, the assessment is very subjective.
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Post by vishal on Mar 30, 2011 15:09:49 GMT -5
Did you have the Magnepan 1.7s for your comparison between the XDA-1 and DAC1? Yes Any thoughts on an overall rating for the XDA-1 compared to the DAC1? ... in your opinion did the XDA-1 provide 80 % of the performance of the DAC1? Hate to put a rating on it. Suffice it to say this... A 3-way (A/B/C) DAC shootout was done by feeding the same optical audio signal in turn to - Integra pre/pro (mine) - XDA-1 (mine) - DAC-1 (friend's) Rest of the system was same - see sig below. While it was very very hard to tell the difference between the Integra and the XDA-1, the DAC-1 just stood out. I mean one did not have to "try" to hear the difference. It was obvious from the get go. Specially in the area of soundstage width and bass amount, accuracy, and tightness. Clarity of mid to high was noticeably better on the DAC-1 but the other two are no slouches either. The improvement/differences in the other areas of SQ were not as obvious. All three of them are on the drier or analytical side. I like it like that. Noise levels (or lack thereof) and depth were mostly at par, with the DAC-1 having a slight edge over the other two. So you can see that at 1/3rd the price, the XDA-1 is a killer DAC deal. But since I already have the Integra it does not make sense for me to keep it. Besides I need to aquire an analog pre-amp with HT bypass before I can use an external DAC "properly" anyway. So eventually the upgraditis will bite again and I will get a DAC and preamp for 2-ch. Till then I am plenty content. I love the sound I have right now. |
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Post by tjhenry on Apr 18, 2011 12:31:03 GMT -5
Hi,
I thought I would add my thoughts on the XDA-1 versus the Benchmark DAC1. I've had a chance to compare them and had an audio buddy over yesterday to have him listen to them.
Overall, the DAC1 is better, just as vishal said. My opinions match that of vishal: the DAC1 was better in almost all areas. That being said, I felt the XDA-1 was pretty close in all areas. I interpret Vishal's statements to mean that it was very easy to distinguish between the XDA-1 and DAC1. While the differences were apparent in my listening, I felt that the differences were not as large as those indicated by vishal. However, it's entirely possible (and completely likely) that my system does not have the resolution of vishal's and therefore the differences were not as great in my system. There was better resolution of detail, improved recording ambience, better leading edge definition of notes and tighter bass. The largest difference in comparison in my system was soundstage width and depth. Switching from the DAC1 to the XDA-1 caused a noticeable reduction in the size of the soundstage, more so than the other differences I noted above.
It's hard to put a number on it, but I would estimate that using the XDA-1 gets you maybe 85 % of the performance of the DAC1 (again, based on what I heard in my system--vishal may disagree and think that the difference may be larger). The purpose of comparing both for me was to determine how much I might be missing in using the XDA-1 as compared to a reference quality DAC. For me, the XDA-1 is definitely acceptable and when you also consider the price difference between the XDA-1 and DAC1, I agree with vishal that the XDA-1 is "a killer DAC deal".
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Post by preproman on Apr 18, 2011 17:00:58 GMT -5
I would like to know what input was used for the shootout? Was the USB port on the DAC's used at all? Was a USB converted used? Did you go straight into the S/PDIF coax/toslink port - or was the balanced input used?
Thanks.
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Post by tjhenry on Apr 18, 2011 18:13:31 GMT -5
preproman,
For my listening tests, I used the coaxial and optical outs on my Pioneer BDP-51FD to feed either the coax or optical inputs of the XDA-1 or DAC1. I started with the coax into the DAC1 and optical into the XDA-1. After a few songs, I switched the coax and optical outputs into the opposite DAC to minimize possible sound quality differences in coax versus optical. I did not use USB at all during the tests.
The volume control on the XDA-1 was set to max (80) and the DAC1 was set to calibrated (no volume control in the path), so both pieces were working just as DACs.
I used unbalanced connections (identical pairs of interconnects) for both DACs. Levels were matched using the input trim function on my integrated amp (using headphones as monitors to get the levels as close as possible--the DAC1 output was 3 dB higher than the XDA-1).
I should make sure to state that my buddy came to the same conclusions as I did on the comparison. I made sure NOT to tell him which DAC was currently playing and changed inputs on my integrated amp (to select the other DAC) several times during songs for comparison. Not exactly a blind switch since my integrated makes an audible click when inputs are changed. However, he was blinded to the identity of the DAC playing.
We used the 2009 stereo remaster of Abbey Road as the album for comparison since he is very familiar with this album.
Hope that all helps.
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Post by preproman on Apr 18, 2011 23:03:34 GMT -5
preproman, For my listening tests, I used the coaxial and optical outs on my Pioneer BDP-51FD to feed either the coax or optical inputs of the XDA-1 or DAC1. I started with the coax into the DAC1 and optical into the XDA-1. After a few songs, I switched the coax and optical outputs into the opposite DAC to minimize possible sound quality differences in coax versus optical. I did not use USB at all during the tests. The volume control on the XDA-1 was set to max (80) and the DAC1 was set to calibrated (no volume control in the path), so both pieces were working just as DACs. I used unbalanced connections (identical pairs of interconnects) for both DACs. Levels were matched using the input trim function on my integrated amp (using headphones as monitors to get the levels as close as possible--the DAC1 output was 3 dB higher than the XDA-1). I should make sure to state that my buddy came to the same conclusions as I did on the comparison. I made sure NOT to tell him which DAC was currently playing and changed inputs on my integrated amp (to select the other DAC) several times during songs for comparison. Not exactly a blind switch since my integrated makes an audible click when inputs are changed. However, he was blinded to the identity of the DAC playing. We used the 2009 stereo remaster of Abbey Road as the album for comparison since he is very familiar with this album. Hope that all helps. tjhenry, Thanks for the details. That helped a lot. |
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Post by corgidog59 on Apr 19, 2011 11:01:46 GMT -5
Accepting the opinion that the DAC1 performs better than the XDA-1, what from an electronic standpoint makes it so? If we were to rip open both units what are the key differences in how they are built that leads to the one sounding better than the other? Is it the 1955 DAC that is the weak link in the XDA-1 or is it the filters? I am contemplating selling my XDA-1 and buying the new ERC-2 but that uses the same DACs has the ERC-1 and XDA-1. I have written here on other threads that I could not hear or tell the difference between the XDA-1 and my DVD player (Pioneer DV-43) which was a bit frustrating.
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Post by GMan on Apr 19, 2011 18:14:16 GMT -5
Levels were matched using the input trim function on my integrated amp (using headphones as monitors to get the levels as close as possible--the DAC1 output was 3 dB higher than the XDA-1). That right there might explain the differences you heard. Get yourself a voltmeter and calibrate so that the output voltage of both DACs are the same. |
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