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Post by apphd on Apr 10, 2011 15:13:35 GMT -5
Hi I dont' do much posting, but I'm looking for some thoughts. I'm looking to improve my 2 ch SQ. first off, I run a Yamaha 663 (no TT input) LPA 1, Genesis Physics 320's, Genesis Physics II's, eD A2-300. I'm wanting to bring my Dual CS-5000 back into use and improve my 2 ch. sound a little. The Yamaha is fine for HT, but I am missing the sound I had with an older Denon. I've been looking at USP 1, and the Parasound 2100. I like a warmer sound so I'm not sure if no tone controles is the way to go for me. Also not sure if I like the fixed 80hz xo of the 2100. Should I be considering just adding a TT pre? Would the USP-1 be a major improvement in my 2 ch. SQ over the Yamaha? Any thoughts/comments are appreciated.
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Post by roadrunner on Apr 10, 2011 19:26:42 GMT -5
apphd, Yes, the USP-1 would be a major step UP in the sound quality from your current gear. I have been using my USP-1 since the first week they were released and I can attest to the fact this is the best sounding analog system improvement I have experienced from adding any single piece of gear. I love what it has done for my analog listening pleasure. Just read the review that Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity did. They also selected the USP-1 in their annual Best Product... accolades. A link to the review is shown below. www.hometheaterhifi.com/preamplifiers/689-emotiva-usp-1-stereo-preamplifier.html |
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Post by apphd on Apr 11, 2011 4:40:09 GMT -5
Thanks rr, that has been my thought until I started to second guess my decision. Kind of like premature buyer's remorse.  I have read the review in Secrets and other user reviews which has led me to the USP on the short list. I know no one can tell me what I will think the USP sounds like in my rig, but the lack of tone controls worries me, even though I know it is more "pure". But I have always felt it was more important to sound good to my ears than what others might think is better. rr or anyone have thoughts on brightness of the USP compared to the Yamaha (which I do not think is overly bright, just not as warm as I prefer). |
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Post by hobbs on Apr 11, 2011 7:26:12 GMT -5
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Post by jackfish on Apr 11, 2011 8:14:35 GMT -5
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Post by regulator on Apr 11, 2011 9:14:32 GMT -5
I think you will be very happy with the USP-1. I have one and my vinyl has never sounded better. Get a good vinyl cleaner too, it makes a huge difference in SQ.
I never thought my USP sounded too bright, but I dont know much about tube pre-amps. The only one I have experience with is the Bellari VP129 and that was a nice little pre-amp, but the USP was a huge upgrade above that one.
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 11, 2011 9:19:04 GMT -5
Shameless plug - if anyone is interested in the Yaqin tube buffer referred to in the first link above (Pacific Valve), I have mine for sale that was purchased from them - see the Emporium.  |
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Post by roadrunner on Apr 11, 2011 14:56:34 GMT -5
Thanks rr, that has been my thought until I started to second guess my decision. Kind of like premature buyer's remorse. I have read the review in Secrets and other user reviews which has led me to the USP on the short list. I know no one can tell me what I will think the USP sounds like in my rig, but the lack of tone controls worries me, even though I know it is more "pure". But I have always felt it was more important to sound good to my ears than what others might think is better. rr or anyone have thoughts on brightness of the USP compared to the Yamaha (which I do not think is overly bright, just not as warm as I prefer). Lots of Lounge members have had the same concerns about there being no tone controls on the USP-1. Quite a few people who purchased the USP-1 posted that they were very pleased with the sound of the unit even though they had previously been concerned about the lack of tone control. Just this past week someone posted about this very topic and state that they do not miss the tone controls at all. A few people who wanted more of the "tube warmth" used the Yaqin tube buffer with the USP-1 and were pleased with the sound quality. This is not the type of warmth you would experience with solid state receivers/pre/pros. The USP-1 is not particularly bright nor particularly warm -- it is very neutral and extremely quiet. The USP's noise floor is world class and has a frequency response that is ruler flat beyond 100KHz. Keep in mind that Emotiva has a 30-day trial period on all of their gear. You can bring it in for a trial and listen to your heart's content to see if the USP-1 meets your requirements. If for any reason you are not completely happy, simply return it to Emotiva for a "no questions asked" refund. No risk involved. It is extremely rare for anyone to return the USP-1 -- it is too good to return. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 11, 2011 16:00:53 GMT -5
Well said Ronnie...I think the USP-1 is quite neutral and quite low noise. I absolutely love mine. Where was it when I spent ~$800 on a preamp back in the early 90's?
Mark
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Post by muzicianx on Apr 11, 2011 16:58:12 GMT -5
Just to clarify apphd... it is the USP-1 with the fixed crossover using the HT Bypass if that's what you're referring too on your initial concerns. The 2100 passes full-range on it's outputs with HT Bypass engaged. That was the deal-breaker for buying the USP-1, no full-range outputs with HT Bypass. BTW, when I had the 2100 in my system, I never used the tone controls - I think that's where a good amplifier will really shine.
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Post by apphd on Apr 11, 2011 21:14:43 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for all the replies. muzicianx, now I am confused and need to go back and read again. But what I thought I have read was the USP-1 full range is not available in bypass, and the filtered high pass output (only thing available in bypass) is an adjustable 50 Hz to 250Hz. Which would be great. The 2100 as I understood has full range, or a high pass out, fixed at 80 Hz. I missed the spring sale so I guess I can slow down a little. The wife is out of town and I figured forgiveness would be easier than permission.  Just to clarify apphd... it is the USP-1 with the fixed crossover using the HT Bypass if that's what you're referring too on your initial concerns. The 2100 passes full-range on it's outputs with HT Bypass engaged. That was the deal-breaker for buying the USP-1, no full-range outputs with HT Bypass. BTW, when I had the 2100 in my system, I never used the tone controls - I think that's where a good amplifier will really shine. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 11, 2011 22:12:22 GMT -5
apphd...you are right on the USP-1's filtering in bypass mode. You cannot run your fronts full range in bypass mode...it can only go in the range you list. If you hook up the USP-1 w/o bypass, then you can send the full range to your fronts.
I cannot speak to the 2100...never looked at it.
That said, even w/my speakers, the 50 hz cutoff is no issue at all. It seems like many mains only go to ~40 or 50 hz these days. So, I figure - who cares it they cut off at 50 hz...the sub will handle the rest.
But...if I were looking at pre-amp options that only cut off at 80 hz...I might choose different fronts or a different preamp!
Mark
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flyhigh
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Post by flyhigh on Apr 11, 2011 22:52:56 GMT -5
There really needs to be some official clarification of this matter.
"Roadrunner" posted a flow diagram of the USP-1 signal routing, and the HT Input signal is applied DIRECTLY to the HP/LP outputs. The filters are not even in circuit...thus if the flow diagram is to be believed, there is NO "fiiltering" of anything taking place on those outputs.
What gozinta HT....comzoutta HT.
Sadly for some, the HT Input is not sent to the "full range" outputs but this perhaps should not be interpreted as meaning that you do not get a full range output from either the HP or LP outputs.
Look at the flow diagram (displayed in the "reviews" section). What do you see? Everything is bypassed except the connections. There are no filters. There is no volume control. There is nothing by a few inches of wire. ie: Bypass.
It doesn't matter to me....but this issue needs to be put to bed. It seems like there's lots of confusion out there, and perhaps needlessly so.
I can see where it would be a PITA to have to swap connections, but is it impossible to use an AUX input? No issues there.
Whew....glad I'm an avid eschewer of TV.
On the other hand...if you're looking for a nice upgrade to your sound, the USP-1 is about as easy as it gets. Amazingly good. Not just "for the money"...but amazingly good period.
If you don't like it.....send it back. That's just too easy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2011 0:20:57 GMT -5
apphd, I don't know much because I'm just a nut. However, for my two cents, I would be looking much closer at your speakers versus looking at the preamp, amp, etc. for the initial source of any possible warm or not-warm sound. Look next to Emo preamps, pre-pros and amps for a very audible/quality improvement over all functions of the 663.
As long as you have a component preamp in the class of the Emotiva UPS-1 you are going to get absolutely flat ultra clean and natural sound from that component. Whether that is what you describe as "warm" is another discussion. Some folks by "warm" mean flat since they have been listening to speakers with an elevated or edgy sounding mid to high range. This could be a dynamic speaker with an overly bright high end or a horn speaker with an irritatingly bright sound. Consequently they think they want "warm" when they really want flat and natural. The other person is the one who tends to like a rolled off high end or a slightly emphasized lower midrange which gives to some folks that "warm" sound versus flat.
I am in no way being negative about your Genesis speakers as it has been years since I have heard them. However, in my distant memory it seems to me that if anything they tended to have what I would call that East Coast sound that might have slightly exaggerated the high frequency to result in that subtle tendency toward the steely and ever so slightly bright sound. Do they tend to become slightly irritating or fatiguing after extended listening? If you could compare them to a current speaker that has a very natural sounding mid and high end like the Emo speakers with tri-fiber (Kevlar like) mid/bass drivers and high quality silk dome tweeters you might see what I mean like the Emo 6.2 (before I get the Emo fan-boy attacks, this is in fact an Emo forum and they are the first speakers I thought of since they have that ultra natural flat sound IMO while still maintaining excellent dispersion).
My whole point here is in no way to be negative about your Genesis, but to make sure the lack of "warmth" is not mainly due to your speakers. That is always the first place I would look.
That said, I do believe an EQ, Parametric EQ or expansive tone control of some type can be helpful only after you have discovered that your speakers, which tend to be flat in most folk's rooms are actually not flat due to your room issues. Nothing wrong in this case with using some form of after market high quality EQ to flatten out the frequency response.
If you really want excellent 2 channel SQ in your system I would consider not only upgrading to a preamp like the USP-1. I think you will be impressed with the improvement that you are not expecting that you would get from upgrading from the 663 to separates, like the UMC-1 plus Emo amp for both two channel and HT sound. The USP-1 would be a nice boost in SQ to the 2ch analog (it has a very nice photo section).
Last but not least, do a careful frequency response test in your room to see if your Genesis exhibit an emphasis in the upper mid/high frequencies and go from there.
;D
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Post by roadrunner on Apr 12, 2011 1:16:32 GMT -5
There really needs to be some official clarification of this matter. "Roadrunner" posted a flow diagram of the USP-1 signal routing, and the HT Input signal is applied DIRECTLY to the HP/LP outputs. The filters are not even in circuit...thus if the flow diagram is to be believed, there is NO "fiiltering" of anything taking place on those outputs. What gozinta HT....comzoutta HT. Sadly for some, the HT Input is not sent to the "full range" outputs but this perhaps should not be interpreted as meaning that you do not get a full range output from either the HP or LP outputs. Look at the flow diagram (displayed in the "reviews" section). What do you see? Everything is bypassed except the connections. There are no filters. There is no volume control. There is nothing by a few inches of wire. ie: Bypass. It doesn't matter to me....but this issue needs to be put to bed. It seems like there's lots of confusion out there, and perhaps needlessly so. I can see where it would be a PITA to have to swap connections, but is it impossible to use an AUX input? No issues there. Whew....glad I'm an avid eschewer of TV. On the other hand...if you're looking for a nice upgrade to your sound, the USP-1 is about as easy as it gets. Amazingly good. Not just "for the money"...but amazingly good period. If you don't like it.....send it back. That's just too easy. I am not sure what diagram you are referring to, but I don't think I have ever posted one that shows what you contend I was showing. You said, "posted a flow diagram of the USP-1 signal routing, and the HT Input signal is applied DIRECTLY to the HP/LP outputs." That would not make any sense. I have owned the USP-1 since the first day it was released; and, I am very familiar with the signal path within the USP-1. Ever since Sticksnstones created the nice connection diagrams, linked below, I frequently point people to one of these two connection diagrams. I fully agree with you that the USP-1 is nothing but a "straight wire" connection from the pre/pro once the HT ByPass button has been pushed. I have emphasized this point dozens of times in the past two years. Now to the nice pictorials showing how to hookup the USP-1. I hope this helps with any confusion that may exist. emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=prepro&thread=6678&page=2#161005emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=prepro&thread=6678&page=1#97198This should make it easy for anyone to see how to insert the USP-1 into your system. |
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flyhigh
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Post by flyhigh on Apr 12, 2011 6:18:03 GMT -5
Sorry RR....It was another poster entirely. My humble apologies. |
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Post by apphd on Apr 12, 2011 19:57:58 GMT -5
Ok, that's what I thought, thanks for the clarification. The 50 Hz is probably just right for me. My mains start rolling off around 35 Hz so th BM is not an issue. The fixed 80 would also not be an issue as I could use the full range and let the AVR filter the R&L in bypass mode. apphd...you are right on the USP-1's filtering in bypass mode. You cannot run your fronts full range in bypass mode...it can only go in the range you list. If you hook up the USP-1 w/o bypass, then you can send the full range to your fronts. I cannot speak to the 2100...never looked at it. That said, even w/my speakers, the 50 hz cutoff is no issue at all. It seems like many mains only go to ~40 or 50 hz these days. So, I figure - who cares it they cut off at 50 hz...the sub will handle the rest. But...if I were looking at pre-amp options that only cut off at 80 hz...I might choose different fronts or a different preamp! Mark |
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Post by apphd on Apr 12, 2011 20:25:32 GMT -5
chuckienut I guess I'm the type that likes the high end rolled off a bit and more pronounced lower mids. You are correct the Genesis have the East Coast sound. I never considered them bright though, (goes to show one man's warm is anothers bright) and was very happy with them paired with a Denon AVR of the same time period. That's why I have kept them around and refoamed all 6 drivers. Got rid of the Denon to move from Pro-Logic to 7.1 DD. and the Yamaha just is not as "warm" as the Denon even in the pure direct mode. I need a TT pre and keep reading about the TT stage of the USP-1 and I'm thinking maybe by going with a HT bypass pre I can push my rig back towards a warmer sound while getting my TT back in the mix. Kind of like a 2 for one sale. ;D From yours, and others comments it sounds like the USP-1 is not as bright as some others have commented. Just another one of those synergy things that, as others have said, is what the 30 days is for. Again I want to thank you and all others for the help it has removed most of my concerns. I have had the LPA 1 B-stock for a couple years now and have been more than pleased with it. apphd, I don't know much because I'm just a nut. However, for my two cents, I would be looking much closer at your speakers versus looking at the preamp, amp, etc. for the initial source of any possible warm or not-warm sound. Look next to Emo preamps, pre-pros and amps for a very audible/quality improvement over all functions of the 663. As long as you have a component preamp in the class of the Emotiva UPS-1 you are going to get absolutely flat ultra clean and natural sound from that component. Whether that is what you describe as "warm" is another discussion. Some folks by "warm" mean flat since they have been listening to speakers with an elevated or edgy sounding mid to high range. This could be a dynamic speaker with an overly bright high end or a horn speaker with an irritatingly bright sound. Consequently they think they want "warm" when they really want flat and natural. The other person is the one who tends to like a rolled off high end or a slightly emphasized lower midrange which gives to some folks that "warm" sound versus flat. I am in no way being negative about your Genesis speakers as it has been years since I have heard them. However, in my distant memory it seems to me that if anything they tended to have what I would call that East Coast sound that might have slightly exaggerated the high frequency to result in that subtle tendency toward the steely and ever so slightly bright sound. Do they tend to become slightly irritating or fatiguing after extended listening? If you could compare them to a current speaker that has a very natural sounding mid and high end like the Emo speakers with tri-fiber (Kevlar like) mid/bass drivers and high quality silk dome tweeters you might see what I mean like the Emo 6.2 (before I get the Emo fan-boy attacks, this is in fact an Emo forum and they are the first speakers I thought of since they have that ultra natural flat sound IMO while still maintaining excellent dispersion). My whole point here is in no way to be negative about your Genesis, but to make sure the lack of "warmth" is not mainly due to your speakers. That is always the first place I would look. That said, I do believe an EQ, Parametric EQ or expansive tone control of some type can be helpful only after you have discovered that your speakers, which tend to be flat in most folk's rooms are actually not flat due to your room issues. Nothing wrong in this case with using some form of after market high quality EQ to flatten out the frequency response. If you really want excellent 2 channel SQ in your system I would consider not only upgrading to a preamp like the USP-1. I think you will be impressed with the improvement that you are not expecting that you would get from upgrading from the 663 to separates, like the UMC-1 plus Emo amp for both two channel and HT sound. The USP-1 would be a nice boost in SQ to the 2ch analog (it has a very nice photo section). Last but not least, do a careful frequency response test in your room to see if your Genesis exhibit an emphasis in the upper mid/high frequencies and go from there. ;D |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2011 0:41:46 GMT -5
My follow up comment is that I feel you will find little if any difference in brightness/warmness among high quality solid state preamps in the class of the Emo UPS-1. They all should be ruler flat and have very little if any effect on perceived brightness. If you want warm sound the speakers, their specific placement in your room, your source material, room acoustics will all have much more influence on possible warmness or lack of warmness than the preamps you are considering.
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I have read the review in Secrets and other user reviews which has led me to the USP on the short list. I know no one can tell me what I will think the USP sounds like in my rig, but the lack of tone controls worries me, even though I know it is more "pure". But I have always felt it was more important to sound good to my ears than what others might think is better. rr or anyone have thoughts on brightness of the USP compared to the Yamaha (which I do not think is overly bright, just not as warm as I prefer).
