jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jul 9, 2011 10:46:19 GMT -5
Sounds like the caption for a law suit, doesn't it? This could result in a law suit. Let's see: I have been an audio hobbyist since the late 70s (high school). I became serious about this hobby in the early 80's with the introduction of the compact disc and home theater. My first serious speakers were a set of Cerwin Vega 3-way towers with 15" woofers. While I have not seriously auditioned as many (quality) towers as some on this forum, I believe that I have found a better alternative: "Well made bookshelf and subwoofer combo" My description of a well made bookshelf speaker is that among other things, it should be able to play flat down near the middle of the 2nd octave (60Hz-70hz). The subwoofer should have -3dB points at or below 20Hz and above 120Hz. The combo should X/O between 65Hz-80Hz. I also believe that the combo gives me the benefit of superior placements of the bookshelves and the sub(s) for optimum playback. My lunch buddy seriously disagree, and contends that he gets a more cohesive presentation and hence, superior sound from his towers (B&W) than could be derived from any bookshelf combo. I know that there are many speaker afficianados on this forum. I'd like to hear your honest opinions and rational support. ;D
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 9, 2011 10:58:09 GMT -5
This is sure to turn into a lively debate. ;D This topic, is one that I am interested in as well. I am always debating what really is the better option. A well integrated sat/sub system, or say Magnepan MMGs paired with a couple of Rythmik subs (I would REALLY love to hear this combo set up well, especially if the MMGs were "gunned") vs. some nice towers. Perhaps, it is just me (or my room, or lack of knowledge/experience/proper equipment), but I have not been 100% successful in getting my subs tuned in so that the bass doesn't feel hyped or wildly inaccurate for music. This makes me lean toward the idea of getting some good towers with deep bass extension. The problem is, when you stat looking at true full range towers, you get into speakers that cost as much as a new car.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jul 9, 2011 11:06:19 GMT -5
I'm using 2 Emo U-12 subs as you are mated with bookshelves. But I also calibrate my subs to the room with the AntiMode 8033S. I don't think that I have heard better performance from any affordable towers from any manufacturer. Then again, my tower auditions have been very limited. I highly recommend that you get yourself the 8033S.
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 9, 2011 11:09:53 GMT -5
Pardon my ignorance Jamrock, but what is the AntiMode 8033S? What does it do? Is it easy to set up and use with great results? Is this similar to using a Behringer feedback destroyer and Room EQ Wizard? I have looked that doing that, and for me it just seems way too intimidating to use. Perhaps it isn't once you dive in, but from the on-set, it looks rather difficult to set up, run, and tweak. Maybe it's just me...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2011 11:12:49 GMT -5
The Emo 8.3s are almost full range towers and with Linkwitz Transform equalization I'm certain they would probably go down to 30Hz at a moderate volume. I don't know why some have so much more trouble than me with integrating a sub. Since a sub(s) can be relocated independently of the main speakers it should be possible to integrate them even better than a full range. Or even locate them under the L/R just as if they are "full range" speakers. The flexibility is enormous.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jul 9, 2011 11:24:45 GMT -5
Pardon my ignorance Jamrock, but what is the AntiMode 8033S? What does it do? Is it easy to set up and use with great results? Stop it. You know far more about audio/products than I do! ;D The DSPeaker antimode 8033s is a great little subwoofer auto calibration device. Because I intend to use 4 subs eventually, I find that the 85033S model gives me the easiest calibration options for 4 subs. It takes about 7 minutes to complete the set up. Enough time to get it going, grab a beer, gulp it down, return to the room to a vastly improved presentation. Here: www.dspeaker.com/Enjoy!
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 9, 2011 11:26:08 GMT -5
Thank you for the link. I will check it out! ;D
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jul 9, 2011 11:29:53 GMT -5
I'm waiting for Billbauman's report on his review of the Aperion Verus bookshelves and to see how the Emo new line performs in order make my change. The Aperions seem extremely attractive at $598.00 per pair. I would prefer to support Emo, but they'd better make it very competitive.
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Post by Wideawake on Jul 9, 2011 11:47:26 GMT -5
My ideal setup would be such that my mains play down to at least 35 Hz. The processor should allow me to cross over my mains to the sub at 35 Hz in stereo, while allowing the LFE channel to be entirely routed to the sub all the way to the prescribed 120 Hz. However, I agree that good quality full range mains will set you back a good penny.
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jul 9, 2011 12:13:40 GMT -5
A true "sub-woofer" by traditional definition should only play below 50Hz or lower. In the "sub" bass range
The range between 120-50 is really handled by a "woofer" like the ones usually found in towers.
Now, that is not to say that you can't find a bass box that can play from 20-120, but in doing so you are bound to be sacrificing something. (ultimate output, flat smooth response, low end extension, etc)
So I would say that in the "traditional" sense, your friend is right.
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jul 9, 2011 12:15:19 GMT -5
However, I agree that good quality full range mains will set you back a good penny. So would a good quality sub that has a flat response with high enough output from 20-120Hz.
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Post by Wideawake on Jul 9, 2011 13:13:20 GMT -5
However, I agree that good quality full range mains will set you back a good penny. So would a good quality sub that has a flat response with high enough output from 20-120Hz. Very true.
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Jul 9, 2011 13:28:27 GMT -5
For most Music in a Stereo setup, Full Range speakers are just fine. If you're into Organ music and synthesizer music, a Sub with a gentle slope (6dB/octave), crossed at 67.5 Hz or so, phase accurate and corrected with Passive x-over, and with a driver or multiple drivers between 8" and 12", I believe, is good. For Movies, lots of big subs of course!
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jul 9, 2011 14:36:17 GMT -5
A true "sub-woofer" by traditional definition should only play below 50Hz or lower. In the "sub" bass range The range between 120-50 is really handled by a "woofer" like the ones usually found in towers. Now, that is not to say that you can't find a bass box that can play from 20-120, but in doing so you are bound to be sacrificing something. (ultimate output, flat smooth response, low end extension, etc) So I would say that in the "traditional" sense, your friend is right. I totally don't understand your post. I have never heard any 'audio expert' postulate your position as to what a subwoofer should be able to accomplish. There are myriads of subs that would easily surpass your suggestion without sacrificing anything in outputting 20Hz-120Hz at ear-bleeding levels. In the arguement regarding the frequency range for subs, 'most folks' agree with THX that X/O between sub(s) and mains at 80Hz is just fine. If I'm able to place my subs anywhere in the room where they give the best response, separate apart from the placement of the mids and highs, why would a 1 box solution better? I would also say that any size subwoofer will outperform the same sized woofer in a tower speaker. Take any full range speaker with a 12" woofer for bass and compare it's out put to a 12" subwoofer of equal quality and you get my point. With less power required to drive the bookshelf/powered sub configuration (it's like having a more powerful power amp) makes the 1 box solution far less attractive. Once you add bass calibration and room correction, the idea that the 1 box solution gives a more cohesive response is out the window. I'm just saying!
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Jul 9, 2011 15:20:47 GMT -5
Let me jump in for just a moment and ask "what is the genre being listened to"? I have orchestral CDs that have information sub-80 Hz but would sound absolutely horrible to have it amplified beyond it's natural "place" in the recording. A good set of monitors or towers would be able to reproduce these sounds just fine. I believe that certain recordings of Mahler's 8th would need a sub to capture the organ pedal tones but the sub would be a supporting player not an active participant.
On the other side of the spectrum we have electronic/pop music with artificial sounds and unnaturally boosted ranges that make having a sub woofer of some sort almost necessary to realize the intention of the artist (or their recording engineer). A powered sub woofer can not only reproduce the boosted low end but also artificially boost it even further than what is on the recording at the owners discretion.
A 12" cone of the same build quality reproduces the same sound regardless of whether it is in a tower or a sub assuming that there is no other differences in its enclosure. The difference is the signal that it's given. Often the "12 inch cone" is asked to do different things in different applications (tower vs amplified sub enclosure). The major difference between a "12 inch cone" in a sub and one in a tower is that the one in the tower is asked to do more (larger range of frequencies) than the sub. Likewise, in an amplified sub woofer the signal the cone is given to process is (duh) amplified giving an artificial sound to those frequencies that either are not in the recording at those levels or boosted to where many persons feeble hearing can discern it. To fully understand what I'm trying to say simply build a cross over to take a full range signal from your pre/pro or amp and send it to your sub's cone... not it's amplifier.
Induction Dynamics makes speakers that will do this. You can purchase their amplifier or get one on your own for their subs that are in their towers. For 2-channel listening you simply select full range and the "subs" are still crossed as subs but the signal is not artificially boosted as it is only split off from the incoming signal. For HT or for those that like the boosted bass sound flip the switch and activate the amp to get amplified bass from their dual 18" cones per tower.
I hope this makes sense and that I'm not all wet.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Jul 9, 2011 15:52:15 GMT -5
A subwoofer can play at any level you want. And I noticed the deliberate use of the words 'artificial and unnatural' when you reference the sub sound/output. Not necessary. A properly calibrated sub/bookshelf combo sound no different from a full range tower. It is only that either the bookshelf section or the sub section can each output more decibels and sometimes cleaner & clearer than the 1 box solution because each section is individually optimized. You are not able to accomplish that in a 1 box wonder. In the BS/SW-C, each section can move that much more air.
Secondly, there is no music genre that is better played back with a BS/SW combo or tower. The simple fact is that you have more flexibility with the BS/SW-C of tuning it on the fly to your taste. Hopefully, I'm understanding your post fully.
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Jul 9, 2011 16:47:06 GMT -5
I usually prefer a nice 2.1 or 2.2 sat/sub system. Mainly because the good ones that I've heard have usually imaged better, and had better bass from sealed subs like the Rythmik F12. But I like a good set of towers in a 2.0 system just as much, as long as they can match the bass quality of a good sub, but that is pretty rare and usually pretty expensive IMO. Some will disagree I'm sure, but I rarely hear towers that can match the bass output, and overall SQ of good subs.
I think most tower fans tend to feel that bookshelf speakers lack the "big sound" of large towers, and I can definitely see where they're coming from. But I think that has a lot to do with how a sat/sub system is set up. I've heard some bookshelf speakers that sound just as "big" as most towers, but those systems had been very carefully set up(in a not so large room), with two properly tuned sealed subs with great output and SQ.
There are certainly benefits to both types of speakers, and of course, like anything else in audio, it all comes down to personal preference and what works in your room. Overall I'd say I'm a middle of the road kind of guy. I say I usually prefer a sat/sub system, but I currently use towers in a 2.0 system and have no problems at all. But I won't argue that towers can greatly benefit from adding a sub or two.
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Post by paintedklown on Jul 9, 2011 17:12:44 GMT -5
A properly calibrated sub/bookshelf combo sound no different from a full range tower. Theoretically, yes, this is true. The problem is getting them tuned properly. Thanks for the link for the DSP Antimode eq. It seems like a great product, but it fails to cover one important (and difficult for me to get correct) setting. That is how loud the subwoofer is supposed to be. As I said before, I just cannot seem to get it right, and when I use YPAO (auto setup on my receiver) the bass seems to be too hot for music, and not loud enough for movies. Maybe I need to start a new thread here about subwoofwer tuning...not trying to thread jack you jamrock. I would LOVE to be able to perfect the "science" of properly tuning, calibrating, level setting, etc. of a sat/sub system as I believe you could ultimately get a much better sound for your money spent, IF everything was done properly.
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jul 9, 2011 18:05:41 GMT -5
When you set a sub's x-over freq too high, you run the risk of bass localization problems if the sub is not up front with your main speakers.
This tends to happen (localization) with freqs >50Hz.
So if you have everything up front, it is easier to blend everything in. If the best sub placement in your room is say behind you for smooth 50-20Hz sub-base and you have it cross high around 100Hz, it will be very hard to balance that system out vs a tower system crossed over at 50-60Hz with similar sub placement.
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Jul 9, 2011 18:16:23 GMT -5
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