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Post by hydrocat on Oct 29, 2011 8:04:16 GMT -5
I am currently looking at subs for two channel music in large rm. Just wondering what the well informed thought about what makes a good musical sub. Some sugestions on which subs have those qualities would be very welcome.
HAPPY HOLLOWEEN EVERYONE!
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Post by Porscheguy on Oct 29, 2011 9:14:38 GMT -5
I think when people talk about musical subs they mean subs that can handle fast transients and don't miss things like quick multiple drum beats or many notes from a bass guitar or similar. It is generally thought that sealed subs (no port) do a better job at this as they achieve a tighter, faster response and less over hang than ported ones - but that usually comes at the expense of output. Subs using servo controls are also thought to have low distortion as well.
That line is blurred now that there are many ported subs that are quite good at music and give a lot of output for HT. There are dozens of brands - only your ears know whats best for you :-)
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Oct 29, 2011 9:19:14 GMT -5
A sub is musical when you are playing music through it.
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Post by esquire on Oct 29, 2011 10:11:48 GMT -5
The stuff you learn here...amazing!
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Post by flamingeye on Oct 29, 2011 12:13:08 GMT -5
As long as the sub was built properly with quality parts it should be musical it’s up to you to make it work in your system and room , you can’t just through a sub, any sub good or bad in your room and expect it to sound musical/perfect
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Post by CrazyBlue on Oct 29, 2011 13:11:52 GMT -5
The same thing that makes speakers musical:
Control of the drivers by the amp.
Subs are tougher because of room interaction with low frequencies though.
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NorthStar
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Post by NorthStar on Oct 29, 2011 15:35:53 GMT -5
REL subwoofers are musical (for music listening), and their drivers are not the larger ones (8" to 12" max).
And two of them, near your two front mains, in front, adds to the overall balance in your larger room. ...And your musical enjoyment.
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Post by billmac on Oct 29, 2011 16:53:54 GMT -5
I had a Outlaw LFM-1 Plus that I thought sounded great but wanted to try a Rythmik F12SE to see if it would be better with music. I found that music does sound better with the F12SE in that specific bass guitar notes or drum beats were much better defined and accurate. With the LFM-1 Plus the deep bass with music was muddy and not as well defined.
I would recommend sealed subs from Rythmik as I have actual experience with them. But I have read that the new Emotiva X-Ref and Epik sealed subs sound very good with music at affordable prices.
Bill
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2011 17:44:50 GMT -5
Having heard Rythmiks for myself I can say these are excellent subs. No question. I am very impressed thus far with the x-ref 12s, though. I will solicit help from more knowledgeable friends than I on further refinements in the set up before I share my total observations.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2011 17:47:22 GMT -5
oh, I forgot.... re the OP: the x-refs 12 are not thunderous, cabinet shaking subs. Rather they excel with two channel music (to my ears). On the movies I've heard using the dual set up, yes, I can hear them from outside the house but I'm not sure the neighbors can. Whatever class this puts them in, I like the x-refs 12.
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Post by cash09 on Nov 15, 2012 16:44:45 GMT -5
I recommend RYTHMIK -HSU .
RYTHMIK is coming up with a new sub this thanksgiving. check it out - its the base model-
FV12 - great sub
For music - a compact sealed subwoofer is preferred over a ported one.
F12 or F15
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Nov 15, 2012 18:33:18 GMT -5
Usually, a musical sub refers to one in which the sub amp has a very high damping factor. A high damping factor means the amplifier has a better ability to control the woofer cone after the signal has stopped. This is not critical for movie bass, but very much so for music. The issue with sealed and ported sub is that a ported sub (of the same woofer & cabinet size) is able to play lower (frequency) than a sealed sub. But it rolls off more steeply than a sealed sub. If you get a sub that covers the audio frequency of +/- 18Hz-200Hz, you can close your eyes and choose any sub you want. Just make sure (and most do) that it has a damping factor of at least 50. 200 is better.
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 15, 2012 19:04:45 GMT -5
Subwoofers are hard. They’re not only hard to design but also hard to integrate with your audio system. Despite what they call their products, most manufacturers don’t really sell subwoofers. Instead, most so-called subwoofers are actually woofers. Woofers handle frequencies from about 200 Hz. to about 30. There are multiple advantages to making single-woofer systems: It’s cheap, the satellite speakers can be smaller, and it makes for a good spouse-acceptance factor.
True sub-woofers are harder. Intended to augment speakers that are already full-range, sub-woofers then add the bottom octave or more of bass. Technically, this frequency range is from about 40 to 20 Hz. or lower. To produce these subsonic frequencies with authority, the sub must have large radiating area, high amplifier power, and a large enclosure. Most manufacturers “cheat physics” by using an extremely powerful amplifier in a small enclosure with a small driver that has extreme excursion capability.
There are many reasons why this is not a good idea. First, if a subwoofer is to be good, it must go really low. Most small subwoofers can't. Second, for a subwoofer to work with music and not just movies, it must have a flat frequency response across its range. Most small subwoofers don't. They're tuned as "one note boom boxes" for impact on movies and really don't sound good on music because they lack pitch definition. Third, most of the small-enclosure, high-excursion subwoofers distort like crazy. The long excursion creates tremendous amounts of intermodulation distortion, and the highly resonant box/driver system keeps ringing long after the signal has stopped.
Most subwoofers that are truly capable of performance below 20 Hz don’t function well as woofers. The subs’ large-diameter drivers are just too heavy to reach frequencies much above 40 Hz. without sounding slow and mushy. This prevents a seamless blend with the main speakers.
In short, I think Jamrock hit the nail on the head!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2012 19:45:40 GMT -5
Subwoofers are hard. They’re not only hard to design but also hard to integrate with your audio system. Despite what they call their products, most manufacturers don’t really sell subwoofers. Instead, most so-called subwoofers are actually woofers. Woofers handle frequencies from about 200 Hz. to about 30. There are multiple advantages to making single-woofer systems: It’s cheap, the satellite speakers can be smaller, and it makes for a good spouse-acceptance factor. True sub-woofers are harder. Intended to augment speakers that are already full-range, sub-woofers then add the bottom octave or more of bass. Technically, this frequency range is from about 40 to 20 Hz. or lower. To produce these subsonic frequencies with authority, the sub must have large radiating area, high amplifier power, and a large enclosure. Most manufacturers “cheat physics” by using an extremely powerful amplifier in a small enclosure with a small driver that has extreme excursion capability. There are many reasons why this is not a good idea. First, if a subwoofer is to be good, it must go really low. Most small subwoofers can't. Second, for a subwoofer to work with music and not just movies, it must have a flat frequency response across its range. Most small subwoofers don't. They're tuned as "one note boom boxes" for impact on movies and really don't sound good on music because they lack pitch definition. Third, most of the small-enclosure, high-excursion subwoofers distort like crazy. The long excursion creates tremendous amounts of intermodulation distortion, and the highly resonant box/driver system keeps ringing long after the signal has stopped. Most subwoofers that are truly capable of performance below 20 Hz don’t function well as woofers. The subs’ large-diameter drivers are just too heavy to reach frequencies much above 40 Hz. without sounding slow and mushy. This prevents a seamless blend with the main speakers. In short, I think Jamrock hit the nail on the head! Wowzers, I'm sorry man but pretty much everything you said here is crazy. Small boxes are one note boom boxes? big subs in small sub boxes distort like crazy? big drivers are too slow? drivers that are good at 20hz don't play well as woofers? Good lord man, where are you getting this info from? I don't even know where to start...... I've been building DIY subs for the last 10 years, it's not rocket science. To be honest, it's actually very easy. there are no crossovers, you need a good amp, a good driver and some sim software, thats it. Test when you are done bulding and see what improvements you can make, if any that are worth the offset of something else.
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Post by edoggrc51 on Nov 15, 2012 21:42:56 GMT -5
Subwoofers are hard. They’re not only hard to design but also hard to integrate with your audio system. Despite what they call their products, most manufacturers don’t really sell subwoofers. Instead, most so-called subwoofers are actually woofers. Woofers handle frequencies from about 200 Hz. to about 30. There are multiple advantages to making single-woofer systems: It’s cheap, the satellite speakers can be smaller, and it makes for a good spouse-acceptance factor. True sub-woofers are harder. Intended to augment speakers that are already full-range, sub-woofers then add the bottom octave or more of bass. Technically, this frequency range is from about 40 to 20 Hz. or lower. To produce these subsonic frequencies with authority, the sub must have large radiating area, high amplifier power, and a large enclosure. Most manufacturers “cheat physics” by using an extremely powerful amplifier in a small enclosure with a small driver that has extreme excursion capability. There are many reasons why this is not a good idea. First, if a subwoofer is to be good, it must go really low. Most small subwoofers can't. Second, for a subwoofer to work with music and not just movies, it must have a flat frequency response across its range. Most small subwoofers don't. They're tuned as "one note boom boxes" for impact on movies and really don't sound good on music because they lack pitch definition. Third, most of the small-enclosure, high-excursion subwoofers distort like crazy. The long excursion creates tremendous amounts of intermodulation distortion, and the highly resonant box/driver system keeps ringing long after the signal has stopped. Most subwoofers that are truly capable of performance below 20 Hz don’t function well as woofers. The subs’ large-diameter drivers are just too heavy to reach frequencies much above 40 Hz. without sounding slow and mushy. This prevents a seamless blend with the main speakers. In short, I think Jamrock hit the nail on the head! WTF??!! lol Feel free to stop by and I'll show ya just how much my subs suck.
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 15, 2012 22:15:10 GMT -5
...Feel free to stop by and I'll show ya just how much my subs suck. Your subs (or mine) aren't typical of what the average consumer picks up at Best Buy or Radio Shack. If you don't think the market is heavily populated by "one note thumpers," may I suggest that you go by and listen. The "average" consumer sub doesn't do sub-sonic frequencies, doesn't have a flat frequency response across its range, and doesn't integrate well with most speakers for music. The average sub may be fine for movies, but music is a whole 'nother world.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2012 22:50:51 GMT -5
My take on Musical Subs Basically Subs fall into about 6 different designs: Downfiring Front firing w/ports Front firing w/o ports (sealed) Front firing w/passive bass radiator Servo Bass Reflex My sub experience is somewhat limited, but I can give you my opinion in what I have experienced so far. In my opinion there “is” such a thing as a “Musical” sub. Also, I am of the opinion there “is” a “Home Theater” sub. I call them “Music Subs” vs “Movie Subs”. And, there are subs that fall in between these two designations. But to clarify, it’s more accurate to say a sub leans towards being “more musical”, or leans towards “more for Home Theater”. But certainly they both can play low frequencies. I’ve owned two down firing subs: Klipsch Sub 12, and a Harman Kardon HK15. Both were powerful, and produced great low end for movies, but I found them on the muddy side for music. The boominess of them was great for explosions, and very percussive low end in movies say, but for me that was not a good bass for music. I own two Velodyne SPL-1000R’s. 10” woofers, sealed enclosure. Awesome for music. Fast, transient response dead on, very articulate. Some of the best subs for music I have ever heard. Only lacking some in the lowest octaves but not much. I have two Polk Audio Micropro 4000’s . Front firing with passive bass radiator (Other examples of this design: Goldenear Forcefields, Paradigm UltraCubes, etc. For me, although just short of the “musicalness” of the Velodynes, this design type offers the best of both worlds. They can hit below 20hz which is great for movies, but they can also reproduce with realism and clarity the bass playing of Billy Sheehan who is considered one of the fastest bassist in the world. Here are a couple of sites that I have found very informative and enlightening about subwoofer design: forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=43669velodyne.com/tech/differences-in-subwoofer-design/
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Post by edoggrc51 on Nov 15, 2012 23:08:19 GMT -5
...Feel free to stop by and I'll show ya just how much my subs suck. Your subs (or mine) aren't typical of what the average consumer picks up at Best Buy or Radio Shack. If you don't think the market is heavily populated by "one note thumpers," may I suggest that you go by and listen. The "average" consumer sub doesn't do sub-sonic frequencies, doesn't have a flat frequency response across its range, and doesn't integrate well with most speakers for music. The average sub may be fine for movies, but music is a whole 'nother world. Agreed for the most part if we're talking about an entry level best buy sub. But nowhere on your post did I see the words "average", "best buy", or "radio shack". I guess that's where the misunderstanding occurred.
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Post by charlie7 on Nov 15, 2012 23:34:16 GMT -5
For music, I always felt a good compromise between ported and sealed subs was one with a passive radiator. Generally speaking, a passive radiator equipped sub can provide deeper bass in a smaller enclosure than a sealed sub and to my ears sounds less boomy than a ported sub.
I made mine from a kit and am very pleased with it.
Charlie
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2012 0:14:22 GMT -5
Where did you get your kit? So is it a passive radiator design?
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