new xpa-3 Aperion Grand Tower onkyo 809

[mvonw]

Just got my new xpa-3. I wasn't sure what to expect. This was more of (somewhat expensive) experiment. I only listened an hour or so, switching back and forth to the Onkyo 809 and the xpa-3 on a variety of material and sources.

In all honesty, I can really discern no difference with my setup. If there is one it is VERY subtle. Could be the Verus grand towers are efficient and don't need anything the onkyo 809 can't handle.

Just thought others with this same gear might want to consider this.

[NorthStar]

Any link on your Verus speakers?

How big is your room? And do you like to listen at loud volumes or just regular volume?
Did you check with Movies or Music? Two-channel Stereo or Multichannel?

Hey, Hi & Welcome to the Lounge!

Bob

[copperband]

Bob, here is the link for Verus Grand:

www.aperionaudio.com/product/Verus-Grand-Tower-Speaker,267,89,802.aspx

it is the next speaker I want to own ;D

[mvonw]

Yep, that is what I have. They sound great. My room is about 20x20. I did some listening to music (no movies yet) in stereo at a variety of loudness levels. If I did notice a difference it seemed to be at louder (louder than normal listening volume) levels.

I think i'm reasonably discerning with regard to sound quality, too. I really like listening to music with headphones. I have Denon AH-D7000's and with a headphone amp, and I really hear the difference there. Maybe my hearing's blown out from all the years of headphones!

[NorthStar]

Nov 16, 2011 19:48:27 GMT -5 copperband said:

Bob, here is the link for Verus Grand:

www.aperionaudio.com/product/Verus-Grand-Tower-Speaker,267,89,802.aspx

it is the next speaker I want to own ;D

Ah of course Vincent; I have the Home Theater October's 2011 issue with a review of the full Aperion Verus Grand Speaker System.

Very nice speakers indeed.
- Sensitivity of the mains front L & R is 90.5 dB from 500 Hz to 2 kHz.
- Their Impedance reaches a minimum of 4.38 ohms at 102 Hz. Phase angle of -45.25 degrees at 69 Hz.
- Useable bass down to 28 Hz (-10 dB point). {-6 dB at 34 Hz.}

Those speakers are real nice with two woven Kevlar midrange and two woven Kevlar woofer drivers. And at 65 pounds each they are quite solid.

The Center channel speaker is also a great one (39 pounds and the right design).

But I believe that the Onkyo TX-NR809 receiver can drive these speakers without external amps if you're not playing them at THX Reference level in a room larger than 3,000 cubic feet or so.
But in a room of about 2,000 cubic feet and at just few dBs below reference level, this 809 receiver is up to it for those speakers.

* Perhaps three UPA-1 monoblocks would have made a sound difference. I truly believe so. And the 809 internal amps for the remaining surround speakers (2, 4, or 6).

Here's that review: Aperion Verus Grand Speaker System Review

[bootman]

Have you run any room setup yet?

[NorthStar]

If she have a subwoofer, it also helps her 809 receiver.

* But for two-channel stereo listening, the TX-NR809 is quite potent (powerful) on his own.
It ain't a 20 pounds receiver, but a 40.4 pounds one, and with THX Select2 Plus certification.

Here's the internal:



* And here's a full review of it: Onkyo TX-NR809 A/V Receiver Full Review
It earned a Reference status.

>>> Use your [Translate] feature from your Google's toolbar.

[NorthStar]

Good point Bootman about the Auto Room EQ & Calibration, because the 809 has Audyssey MultEQ XT for that duty. Plus two Sub outputs. And Audyssey DSX.

Mvonw, just in case you're not aware of this Guide, here it is again: Audyssey Setup Guide

*** Read it with the utmost attention, and follow all the directives in it.
In particular regarding the 8 mic position measurements (yes, you should take all 8 of them, no matter what), and also regarding the subwoofer(s) settings.

[NorthStar]

...And this Tutorial on Audyssey Mic positioning:

[mvonw]

Thank-you for the Audyssey tip. Yes, I have done that (with the 809 alone as well.) The problem isn't that the sound isn't good (it is), it's just I'm not sure the xpa-3 does much to improve it. I'll see how it does with some movies with a good surround track.

[NorthStar]

Me think that your XPA-3 can come into his own when and if you decide to really turn things up.
The dynamics and extra headroom will be there for those occasions.

Also, it is hard to compare your 809's internal amps with the XPA-3 as the gain is totally different. You would have to turn your 809 about 3 dB louder or so to have a similar output level as the XPA-3.

* If you would have posted here before, and told us everything we wanted to know, perhaps you would have been directed to a pair of UPA-1 monoblocks for your two front mains.

As of now, I'd say, try it! ...A pair of UPA-1 monoblocks.
But only if you want to make those Verus Grand speakers truly sing. And well. And if you have the ears...
But if Headphone listening is your main priority, then why did you get the XPA-3 in the first place?
I know I know I know; Exploration, Temptation, Curiosity... ;D
Yeah, we're all the same.

Anyway, it's nice to have some feminine presence around, and we're here to assist you the best we can.
And please don't be shy because we're not!

Best cheers,
Bob

[roadrunner]

Important questions in the comparison of the Onkyo 809 and the XPA-3 when driving the Versus speakers are what did you do to ensure that the volume level was exactly the same when listening to each setup? What SPL reading did you select to make the comparison? Did you allow the XPA-3 ample time to "burn-in" before running the comparison?

As is well known, the XPA amps need some time to find their "voice" and sound noticably better afterwards. More important though, is that the volume levels needed to be the same for the test to have any validity. The psychoacoustics show that the amp playing even slightly louder sounds better than the other amp. That is why it is so critical to know what steps where taken to ensure they were the same.

[NorthStar]

There is still a good lesson to be learned here; and that is that it's not everyone who needs to add external amp(s) to their A/V receivers.

That depends a lot on their room dimensions, their listening preference volume levels, and of course the loudspeakers to be driven.
And when you add a subwoofer (or more) into the equation, particularly for a multichannel surround sound system setup, it adds even more charm to the A/V receiver.
You know what I'm sayin'...

[NorthStar]

Like; can I live without both my XPA-2 and XPA-5, and use a good Onkyo receiver instead? Yes.
Would I? No.
Why? Just because.

[jdskycaster]

mvonw,
It has only subtly been eluded to in a couple replies here but what you are experiencing is the law of diminishing returns. In your room, with your speakers and at the levels you prefer to listen to you are not hearing much if any difference in your system with additional amplification. You have a very competent AVR with very good amps built in and if you are pleased with it I would encourage you to stick with it and continue to be happy. The chase for audible improvement will be minute and costly. Only you can decide if the benefits you hear are worth it and from what you have posted it appears that it may not be for you and in your situation.

As for your ears, I would take my wife's ears over mine any day. Her hearing is much more sensitive and because of that regularly listens at levels my old and damaged drums just do not work with anymore. Years of loud machinery and live concerts have taken their toll.

There is absolutely a benefit to external amplification but in your case I would say you just do not need it.

Best of luck,

JD

[cgolf]

I've been drooling over these speakers too but just haven't pulled the trigger yet. Wonder how the Fortes match up against the Grands??

I have the 807 but have always had the Emo amps. I did try running everything off the 807 for fun but in my system, running external amps makes a very noticable difference in sound quality. It was OK with the 807 but with the amps, the sound is much bolder, fuller, stronger...... I am running my back 7.1 speakers off the Onkyo but rarely hear anything from them. ;D

[mvonw]

Thanks for all the useful input! As I mentioned at the outset, this was an experiment. The problem with audio equipment is that it so subjective and so many variables, and there rate of returns does slow significantly once you get to a certain point. In general, I’ve also learned the internet is a really lousy source of primary information. The best source of information is by hearing systems in real people’s homes (not stores.) I’ve been lucky to hear a lot of systems in a lot of enthusiasts homes (money no limit types), so I have a baseline for understanding what is out there and possible. (In general, the best acoustics seemed to be directly related to the quality of the wine I was drinking, as I recall.)

I also know that on the internet there is no middle ground on reviews, either people hate something or they love it. Equipment, like life, just isn't like that. Sometimes things are just good. It massages our ego to think we are so smart that we have “invested” in the best stuff. But, hey, I’m no different!

[cgolf]

Nov 16, 2011 19:11:41 GMT -5 mvonw said:

Just got my new xpa-3. I wasn't sure what to expect. This was more of (somewhat expensive) experiment. I only listened an hour or so, switching back and forth to the Onkyo 809 and the xpa-3 on a variety of material and sources.

In all honesty, I can really discern no difference with my setup. If there is one it is VERY subtle. Could be the Verus grand towers are efficient and don't need anything the onkyo 809 can't handle.

Just thought others with this same gear might want to consider this.

I think you will hear a difference between the Onkyo and the XPA-3 on movies with all 5 channels driven at the same time. If you set the levels with a sound level meter so the volume is the same both ways and test them against each other, I think you are going to tell a difference!! ;D

[jdskycaster]

If you get a chance to test it would be interesting to hear your results with 5 channel movie material. My money stays on you not hearing much of a difference. The problem is with the amount of power ever going to the surround channels. Even in dynamic scenes it is usually brief and not very taxing on an amp (again unless you have very inefficient surrounds).

What I have found is that for movie soundtracks perceived quality of sound is even more difficult to discern because there is so much going on that it can be hard to discern subtle differences.

If she plays movies the same way she listens to music that being moderate volumes and not pushing anything hard it will still be very hard to tell the difference in my opinion. I would be interested in what the outcome is though.

JD

[NorthStar]

Nov 18, 2011 18:15:30 GMT -5 mvonw said:

Thanks for all the useful input! As I mentioned at the outset, this was an experiment. The problem with audio equipment is that it so subjective and so many variables, and there rate of returns does slow significantly once you get to a certain point. In general, I’ve also learned the internet is a really lousy source of primary information. The best source of information is by hearing systems in real people’s homes (not stores.) I’ve been lucky to hear a lot of systems in a lot of enthusiasts homes (money no limit types), so I have a baseline for understanding what is out there and possible. (In general, the best acoustics seemed to be directly related to the quality of the wine I was drinking, as I recall.)

I also know that on the internet there is no middle ground on reviews, either people hate something or they love it. Equipment, like life, just isn't like that. Sometimes things are just good. It massages our ego to think we are so smart that we have “invested” in the best stuff. But, hey, I’m no different!

That's it! You got it! ...In just that one sentence.