The Emperor has no clothes! XPA's vs. AV receiver

[capn]

I have a stereo/AV system that utilizes two XPA-1's for left and right channels and an XPA-5 for everything else. For the past year, I've been using the Pre-outs on a Denon 3311ci as the surround processor.

I've been contemplating purchasing an Integra DHC-80.3, but I figured before I drop another $2K for that, I should probably try to actually verify that I can hear the difference between a differential based system comprised of separates and the integrated Denon receiver.

Initially, I set up a stereo only comparison.

Setup #1:
Emotiva ERC-1 Compact Disc Player
Emotiva XDA-1 Digital Differential Preamp
Emotiva XPA-1 (2) in balanced mode hooked directly to XDA-1
Emotiva ERT 8.3 Floor Tower Speakers

Setup #2:
Emotiva ERC-1 Compact Disc Player
Denon AVR-3311CI
Emotiva ERT 8.3 Floor Tower Speakers

I haven't yet run any 96KHz/24bit or better files through the two systems, but I have compared several music CD's.

I've concluded that I can't hear the difference.

I'm going to set up a similar movie sound comparison scenario, but unless that proves to produce a discernable difference in audio quality, I will have to conclude that for me anyway, all of that extra gear is simply a waste of money.

If you see two XPA-1's, an XPA-5, an XDA-1 and a USP-1 on Ebay in the near future, you'll know that the movie sound comparison produced a similar result to the stereo comparison

For those of you that truly can hear the difference between such a comparison, I envy you.

For the rest of you that are like me and only think or hope that you can hear the difference, you have my sympathy (assuming you, too have wasted money)

[indyscammer]

Sorry to hear that. I know I replaced a Yamaha receiver with a borrowed B&K Ref 20 processor and the UPA-7 for immediate and discernable SQ improvement. And my max volume went up. When I took delivery of the UMC-1 I got another improvement in SQ...especially at low volume where the bass and low mid-range filled out nicely. This is why you see it spoken alot on the forum...listen for yourself, in your room, and YMMV (your mileage may vary).

What type of music are you listening to? That could contribute as well as the quality of your recorded material.

[DYohn]

Different strokes.

[HDSapper]

Jan 27, 2012 10:45:51 GMT -5 capn said:

For those of you that truly can hear the difference between such a comparison, I envy you.

Maybe anyone who can (or let's themselves believe they can) hear a difference should envy you! Think of how much money you can save over the course of a lifetime by not buying expensive gear. If you can be happy with a mid-level receiver, your cost of happiness just went down. Congratulations.

[ausman]

add the xpa-1's to the denon then you my\ay notice something assuming the avr has a pre-amp..

[hemster]

Jan 27, 2012 11:01:23 GMT -5 DYohn said:

Different strokes.

...for different folks.

[jdskycaster]

I am using the 3311 as a pre/pro and can vouch for it's performance. I cannot comment on the inernal amps as I have not used them at all. I preferred the 3311 over the UMC for HT use which is almost 100% movies for me. I rarely if ever go in there to just listen to music unless there is video involved as well. That 10' screen is just too distracting for me to use that space for dedicated listening.

I really do not think you are experiencing anything different from most. I have commented several times about my experience with A/B comparisons. If you are starting out with competent gear (which you are) it becomes very difficult to discern a real difference.

Unless you really need the cash I would personally keep the Emo amps you have. It gives you a ton of flexibility in the future regarding upgrading pre/pro's, speaker choice or even moving the equipment into a larger more demanding space.

JD

[capn]

Jan 27, 2012 10:59:35 GMT -5 indyscammer said:

What type of music are you listening to? That could contribute as well as the quality of your recorded material.

My initial comparison included:

1. New York Minute - Hell Freezes Over - Eagles
2. You and Your Friend - On Every Street - Dire Straits
3. Iron Hand - On Every Street - Dire Straits
4. Nineteen - Gaucho - Steely Dan
5. Maneater - Nelly Furtado - Loose

I actually would like to be able to hear the difference, but I can't thus far. I'm going to spend some more time this weekend with it.

[monkumonku]

Jan 27, 2012 10:45:51 GMT -5 capn said:

I have a stereo/AV system that utilizes two XPA-1's for left and right channels and an XPA-5 for everything else. For the past year, I've been using the Pre-outs on a Denon 3311ci as the surround processor.

I've been contemplating purchasing an Integra DHC-80.3, but I figured before I drop another $2K for that, I should probably try to actually verify that I can hear the difference between a differential based system comprised of separates and the integrated Denon receiver.

Initially, I set up a stereo only comparison.

Setup #1:
Emotiva ERC-1 Compact Disc Player
Emotiva XDA-1 Digital Differential Preamp
Emotiva XPA-1 (2) in balanced mode hooked directly to XDA-1
Emotiva ERT 8.3 Floor Tower Speakers

Setup #2:
Emotiva ERC-1 Compact Disc Player
Denon AVR-3311CI
Emotiva ERT 8.3 Floor Tower Speakers

I haven't yet run any 96KHz/24bit or better files through the two systems, but I have compared several music CD's.

I've concluded that I can't hear the difference.

I'm going to set up a similar movie sound comparison scenario, but unless that proves to produce a discernable difference in audio quality, I will have to conclude that for me anyway, all of that extra gear is simply a waste of money.

If you see two XPA-1's, an XPA-5, an XDA-1 and a USP-1 on Ebay in the near future, you'll know that the movie sound comparison produced a similar result to the stereo comparison

For those of you that truly can hear the difference between such a comparison, I envy you.

For the rest of you that are like me and only think or hope that you can hear the difference, you have my sympathy (assuming you, too have wasted money)

I never heard a difference using the ERC-1 analog outputs versus connecting its coax to an XDA-1. People might tell you it's all about "synergy" and different combinations of components will give you different results (I can't speak to that..since there are endless combinations possible) and others might tell you that your equipment isn't "resolving" enough to bring out those differences but to that argument: then they'd be dissing the XPA-1's and the 8.3's as not being "resolving" enough. When I did comparisons, I really wanted to hear a difference. I was expecting to, and wanted to, and thought I did but when I went back to focus on the parts where I thought there was a difference, specifically focusing on those parts revealed that there was in fact no difference. The only real difference was at times in volume - so I had to adjust for that.

You have a USP-1? You didn't mention that as being in the component chain for your testing.

I used to have a USP-1. I wish I hadn't sold it.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know you are not alone in the type of findings you came up with.

[aliminas]

IF ERC-1 + USP-1 + (2 x XPA-1 ) + (2 x ERT8.3) = ERC-1 + AVR-3311CI + (2 x ERT8.3) THEN there's something wrong. How are you connecting cd player and avr and usp-1 preamp?

[knucklehead]

Don't be too dismayed capn, people can't hear much - if any difference - between systems when the speakers and room acoustics are taken out of the equation. It isn't your ears vs theirs. Trouble is when you spend thousands of dollars on new amps transports and preamps you *expect* to hear a difference. There HAS to be a difference - right? If the amps aren't clipping the differences will be minor - subtle - or most often - none. If you want to hear a real difference try different speakers and acoustically treat the room. You'll hear the differences then.

This is a very unscientific A/B test but it is typical of the differences found between electronics.

www.matrixhifi.com/contenedor_ppec_eng.htm

Having understood years ago that continuing any discussion of this subject further is like beating a dead horse I won't discuss or argue the 'my ears hear what your's don't' theme. I'll sit back and read whatever vitriol pointed my way that may follow these comments with amusement.

[DYohn]

I agree with Mr. Jones.

[geebo]

Sometimes I don't hear any differences between two pieces of equipment until I stop trying to hear differences. Then after some time I might hear some things that were unexpected when I was no longer looking for those differences.
You might want to listen to the Denon for a couple of weeks in your normal manner until you are sure you're not missing anything.

[Topend]

Try adding the USP-1 into setup #1 and set the XDA-1 volume to 80 or take out the XDA-1.

Dave.

[capn]

Jan 27, 2012 12:01:09 GMT -5 aliminas said:

IF ERC-1 + USP-1 + (2 x XPA-1 ) + (2 x ERT8.3) = ERC-1 + AVR-3311CI + (2 x ERT8.3) THEN there's something wrong. How are you connecting cd player and avr and usp-1 preamp?

In my "typical" configuration, I have the USP-1 connected to the two XPA-1's and to my Ultra Sub 12 with the Denon AVR-3311ci connected to the USP-1 via the HT bypass.

However, for the test, I wanted to create the most pristine setup that I could, which is why I connected the digital out of the ERC-1 to the XDA-1 and the balanced out of the XDA-1 directly to the XPA-1's.

Make sense?

[Topend]

Jan 27, 2012 14:07:56 GMT -5 capn said:

Jan 27, 2012 12:01:09 GMT -5 aliminas said:

IF ERC-1 + USP-1 + (2 x XPA-1 ) + (2 x ERT8.3) = ERC-1 + AVR-3311CI + (2 x ERT8.3) THEN there's something wrong. How are you connecting cd player and avr and usp-1 preamp?

In my "typical" configuration, I have the USP-1 connected to the two XPA-1's and to my Ultra Sub 12 with the Denon AVR-3311ci connected to the USP-1 via the HT bypass.

However, for the test, I wanted to create the most pristine setup that I could, which is why I connected the digital out of the ERC-1 to the XDA-1 and the balanced out of the XDA-1 directly to the XPA-1's.

Make sense?

Using the volume on the XDA-1 will have a negative effect on SQ unless it is set to 80. This why I suggest using the USP-1.

Dave.

[roadrunner]

Jan 27, 2012 10:45:51 GMT -5 capn said:

I have a stereo/AV system that utilizes two XPA-1's for left and right channels and an XPA-5 for everything else. For the past year, I've been using the Pre-outs on a Denon 3311ci as the surround processor.

I've been contemplating purchasing an Integra DHC-80.3, but I figured before I drop another $2K for that, I should probably try to actually verify that I can hear the difference between a differential based system comprised of separates and the integrated Denon receiver.

Initially, I set up a stereo only comparison.

Setup #1:
Emotiva ERC-1 Compact Disc Player
Emotiva XDA-1 Digital Differential Preamp
Emotiva XPA-1 (2) in balanced mode hooked directly to XDA-1
Emotiva ERT 8.3 Floor Tower Speakers

Setup #2:
Emotiva ERC-1 Compact Disc Player
Denon AVR-3311CI
Emotiva ERT 8.3 Floor Tower Speakers

I haven't yet run any 96KHz/24bit or better files through the two systems, but I have compared several music CD's.

I've concluded that I can't hear the difference.

I'm going to set up a similar movie sound comparison scenario, but unless that proves to produce a discernable difference in audio quality, I will have to conclude that for me anyway, all of that extra gear is simply a waste of money.

If you see two XPA-1's, an XPA-5, an XDA-1 and a USP-1 on Ebay in the near future, you'll know that the movie sound comparison produced a similar result to the stereo comparison

For those of you that truly can hear the difference between such a comparison, I envy you.

For the rest of you that are like me and only think or hope that you can hear the difference, you have my sympathy (assuming you, too have wasted money)

Capn

In your testing scenario I was somewhat surprised that you used the XDA-1 as your pre-amp. The ERC-1 and the XDA-1 use the same AD1955 DAC chipset and during my listening tests I could discern no difference in the sound quality between the ERC-1 and the XDA-1. However, I found that substituting the the USP-1 for the XDA-1 yielded a noticeable improvement in sound quality. You may wish to run your test again using the USP-1 instead of the XDA-1 and see if that changes anything in your listening evaluation. (Yes, I realize that the USP-1 is NOT a fully balanced signal path and the XDA-1 has a fully balanced path.) I am not sure why use of the USP-1 produced an improvement when the XDA-1 didn't.

Generally speaking, you will get better results in obtaining improved sound quality by adding room treatments than you will by upgrading the electronics -- especially if you have decent quality electronics to start with. Denon is noted for having good quality pre-amp sections in the high-end receivers so it is not terribly surprising you obtained the results you did.

One question that occurred to me was whether you disabled Audyssey EQ to run your testing scenario? The changes imposed by the EQ tend to mask any changes in sound quality and would make it more difficult to discern any changes that took place. I don't like the sound quality changes Audyssey imposes on stereo music listening and always disable EQ for all my music listening.

[sharkman]

Yes, the XDA has a known volume issue which would affect your results. Also, I may have missed it, but what speakers are you running, capn?

Edit: Oh, there they are.

[jackfish]

ERC-1 => XDA-1 => XPA-1x2 is not the "most pristine" setup. ERC-1 => USP-1 => XPA-1x2 would be better.

The XDA-1 is not really a preamp, it is a DAC (essentially the same DAC as in the ERC-1 with a bit better implementation) with a digital volume control in which bits are lost with reduced volume. Go USP-1 instead of XDA-1 for a more fair comparison.

[Erwin.BE]

Capn,

Keep in mind that the three most determinating things in a reproductive audio system are the quality of:

1/ the recording
2/ the speakers
3/ the room and how it interacts with the speakers

All the rest: Source, DAC, preamp and amp are far less important.

But if you do set up a good room (immensely difficult) and buy good speakers (easy, I did that), you will be able to differentiate between a good recording and rubbish. And I know a pair of XPA-1 is over the top (as was written to me personally by the legendary "Audio Critic", Mr Peter Aczel in a response to a Q I asked him), but it's darn nice to have it, just like a big engined car is nicer to throttle around in.

And BTW, the XPA-1 is one of the best amps any money can buy, but IMO, this isn't true for the Emo speakers. No, I didn't ever hear one, but I did hear the B&W 800D and 802D, and these are formidable. But so are my Jamo's. I'm building a nice house around them right now!

If I'd want to buy (with my own money) new speakers today, Id look at the superb XTZ divine 100.49
www.xtz.se/uk/products/speakers/divine