LCSeminole
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Post by LCSeminole on Feb 22, 2012 17:18:50 GMT -5
corbaatje, As JD said a little earlier, the subject of "solid state" power amplifiers can get real sticky and just like any other subject matter in the audio/video world, everyone has an opinion. I hope none of my responses made you upset, as I was only questioning in general how different brands of the same amplifier class with similarly specs could sound significantly different. As you'll note I did say I didn't doubt you heard the differences as I definitely think you did hear a distinct difference. The Lounge members here are mainly expressing their opinions on a subject and rarely being personal. In the end, it really doesn't matter what others think, but what your ears find pleasing. Enjoy your Proceed Amp 5, and give another review after you've had plenty of time to listen. Again thanks for your review!
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Feb 22, 2012 19:23:53 GMT -5
Bob Carver would argue that he can design an amp that could sound like any other. I believe him. Google Carver M-1.0t (or any of his transfer function amps)
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Feb 22, 2012 19:49:22 GMT -5
I entered the audiophile realm circa 1978 - 1980. I have read and listened to many debates between tube & transistor amps, digital and analog components and CDs vs vinyl. I have spent many Saturdays at my friend's house in Flatbush, Brooklyn, NY listening to his Marantz home system and even switching out amps with his QSCs. As long as the outputs were matched, there was no difference. However, remove matched levels from the equasion and all bets are off. But can someone explain this to me: If the source component, the interconnects, the pre/pro, the power amp, the speaker wires, the speakers and lastly the room, all have a bearing on the final sound you hear, how can you tell which of those link in that chain is the determining factor for what you hear? Only if you conduct a DBX test of the link in whcih you are interested. Right? BTW, I am also aware that some tweako manufacturers will manipulate the harmonics to give their amps a certain "colored sound" Similar principle as Carver manipulating transfer function to make a so-so amp sound like a really well built one. (harmonics is a form of distortion). Therefore, if you are using quality parts and sound engineering to build an amp to just amplify the signal in order to drive the speakers, there would be no laid back or forward sound. No bright or warm sound. The only things that would separate one SS amp from the other are: Noise, Channel separation, power (headroom) and efficiency. Be well all!
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Post by sharkman on Feb 22, 2012 21:00:38 GMT -5
And you would be wrong.
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Post by jdskycaster on Feb 22, 2012 21:12:31 GMT -5
What??? Are you kidding me??? I come back to an amp comparo thread and six hours later there are only two pages and 25 total replies?? I am really disapointed in you guys ;D
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Feb 22, 2012 21:20:28 GMT -5
It is a matter of perspective. Sound reproduction is a chain. Your ears are also part of that chain. Surprisingly not all ears are made the same!!!
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Post by monkumonku on Feb 22, 2012 21:51:16 GMT -5
What??? Are you kidding me??? I come back to an amp comparo thread and six hours later there are only two pages and 25 total replies?? I am really disapointed in you guys ;D Well there's not a whole lot that can be said (nothing in fact) that hasn't already been endlessly debated in numerous threads with no real conclusion. There is either a real difference or there isn't. Some people can hear the real difference and some can't. Some people can hear a difference that isn't there, and some can't. That about sums it up.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 1:02:20 GMT -5
..... But can someone explain this to me: If the source component, the interconnects, the pre/pro, the power amp, the speaker wires, the speakers and lastly the room, all have a bearing on the final sound you hear, how can you tell which of those link in that chain is the determining factor for what you hear? Only if you conduct a DBX test of the link in whcih you are interested. Right?..... BINGO!That's why I always chuckle (pun intended) when I hear, for example, a recent post by a fellow who attended a show, went into a to a room and "listened" to a new DAC that was being showcased. He remarked that it was one of the finest DAC's he had heard. Ugh, like how did he know that it wasn't the after-market power cord on the amp? Another example is the many folks who make a comparison between two amps or receivers having heard one at a friends and the other at a different friends house, or one at one dealer's and the other in a different room at the same dealer's, etc. One that tickles me the most is those who know that X brand speakers sound best with Z brand receivers or A brand speakers sound best with B brand receivers. In my opinion they think they must be some kind of super-audiophile in that they have discerning enough ears to hear these fine synergy matches. OK, don't get me started on "Synergy." ;D
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Post by briank on Feb 23, 2012 5:39:54 GMT -5
What??? Are you kidding me??? I come back to an amp comparo thread and six hours later there are only two pages and 25 total replies?? I am really disapointed in you guys ;D Well there's not a whole lot that can be said (nothing in fact) that hasn't already been endlessly debated in numerous threads with no real conclusion. There is either a real difference or there isn't. Some people can hear the real difference and some can't. Some people can hear a difference that isn't there, and some can't. That about sums it up. Thanks for clearing things up Monku! I'd have to agree with your new found wisdom. ;D
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Feb 23, 2012 6:42:32 GMT -5
I only have one thing to say: There are audiophiles and then there are audiofools...
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Post by indyscammer on Feb 23, 2012 9:42:59 GMT -5
Ok...only going to say this once. You are ALL correct! If two amps are truely flat in ALL of their frequencies then thay will sound the same. No two amps are of course and this is where the debate begins. Flat is the design goal (or should be). There are always trade offs through the design process which create output differences. Parts choices, part tolerances, trace lengths, board layouts, topologies, technologies, etc. etc. MOST claims you see are "It is flat between 20 - 20K" but the disclaimer is the devil in the details....+/- 3dB. All this means is it is anything BUT flat. Can you hear 3dB? How about 6dB which is the POTENTIAL difference between 2 amps at a given frequency that claim to both be "flat"? All I'm saying is there are folks out there than can hear 3dB and can't. I mix audio on the weekends for a large church. I work with other "mixers" and it is UNBELIEVABLE how much difference there is if I am mixer or someone else. Ear sensitivity varies. Can you hear +/- 1 dB....I can't but I know people that can. I hear differences in SOME amps A/B'd in same room with same speakers, yadda yadda yadda.
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Post by sharkman on Feb 23, 2012 11:07:19 GMT -5
Well, I hope we all feel better now that we got that off our chests!
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Feb 23, 2012 17:42:30 GMT -5
Your response does not enlighten my darkness. I never tell my children, or anyone else for that matter, that they are wrong without explaining what that wrong was. Give it a thought and respond please ;D
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Feb 23, 2012 17:49:03 GMT -5
Ok...only going to say this once. You are ALL correct! If two amps are truely flat in ALL of their frequencies then thay will sound the same. No two amps are of course and this is where the debate begins. Flat is the design goal (or should be). There are always trade offs through the design process which create output differences. Parts choices, part tolerances, trace lengths, board layouts, topologies, technologies, etc. etc. MOST claims you see are "It is flat between 20 - 20K" but the disclaimer is the devil in the details....+/- 3dB. All this means is it is anything BUT flat. Can you hear 3dB? How about 6dB which is the POTENTIAL difference between 2 amps at a given frequency that claim to both be "flat"? All I'm saying is there are folks out there than can hear 3dB and can't. I mix audio on the weekends for a large church. I work with other "mixers" and it is UNBELIEVABLE how much difference there is if I am mixer or someone else. Ear sensitivity varies. Can you hear +/- 1 dB....I can't but I know people that can. I hear differences in SOME amps A/B'd in same room with same speakers, yadda yadda yadda. There is no good amp that has a measurement of +/-3dB 20Hz - 20Khz. Where the signal would show +/-3dB is the dog whistle region. That is usually a speaker measurement ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2012 21:35:15 GMT -5
MOST claims you see are "It is flat between 20 - 20K" but the disclaimer is the devil in the details....+/- 3dB. All this means is it is anything BUT flat. I agree with Jamrock that perhaps indyscammer is getting his speakers and amp specifications mixed up. In this case the Proceed spec sheet show, " within 0.15 dB from 20 Hz to 20 kHz" The Emo XPA-5 shows, "20 Hz to 20 kHz with less than .05db deviation at rated power"
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Feb 23, 2012 22:16:22 GMT -5
What??? Are you kidding me??? I come back to an amp comparo thread and six hours later there are only two pages and 25 total replies?? I am really disapointed in you guys ;D Well there's not a whole lot that can be said (nothing in fact) that hasn't already been endlessly debated in numerous threads with no real conclusion. There is either a real difference or there isn't. Some people can hear the real difference and some can't. Some people can hear a difference that isn't there, and some can't. That about sums it up. Well, I'd have to say that you are absolutely right or you're not... ;D
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Post by monkumonku on Feb 23, 2012 23:35:40 GMT -5
Well there's not a whole lot that can be said (nothing in fact) that hasn't already been endlessly debated in numerous threads with no real conclusion. There is either a real difference or there isn't. Some people can hear the real difference and some can't. Some people can hear a difference that isn't there, and some can't. That about sums it up. I'd put money on it.. ;D Well, I'd have to say that you are absolutely right or you're not... ;D
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Post by paintedklown on Feb 24, 2012 2:46:30 GMT -5
That's why I always chuckle (pun intended) when I hear, for example, a recent post by a fellow who attended a show, went into a to a room and "listened" to a new DAC that was being showcased. He remarked that it was one of the finest DAC's he had heard. Ugh, like how did he know that it wasn't the after-market power cord on the amp? I just about wet my pants Chuckie!!! ;D ;D ;D Just to add to this room vs. signal path discussion... I was recently with my cousin (who is a budding audiophile on a serious budget) and we went to Magnolia to listen to some speakers. We walk in and I see some Martin Logans (don't know the model) and I was immediately excited to hear them. I had the guy working there (who was seriously an idiot who didn't have a clue about any of the gear, their components, and how they work : fire up the Logans and I was immediately underwhelmed... I said that I was surprised by the complete lack of dynamics. I had expected them to "wow" me to be honest, they were quite "meh" and didn't leave me with a feeling of needing to drop my B&Ws for them. Anway, we go around the room with this seriously uneducated fellow (I am really trying hard to not be mean here, but the guy sincerely didn't have a clue) listening to various subwoofers and speakers. Well, just for grins and giggles, I asked him to fire up the B&W 684 towers (the same ones I own) to see what they sounded like. Once again, I was completely underwhelmed. They sounded like garbage, had no dynamic punch, no bass extension, and the highs seemed to be rolled off. I double checked the receiver that was pushing them (a Yamaha very similar to mine, but this years model) and everything was set correctly (ie. pure direct was engaged ) and I just couldn't believe my ears. I determined right then and there that it HAS to be the room making everything sound so horrible. So, I walked away from the room thinking that the Martin Logans really didn't get a "fair shake" either. That's too bad. Clueless salesmen trying to sell gear that is poorly set up in a room that seemingly had a negative impact on every speaker in it. I honestly feel that if I had the opportunity to take those speakers and put them in my (old) room with my gear in front of them, then I could really see what kind of performance they were capable of. I used to read time and time again, that there is no way to really know how gear sounds until you get it home and hooked up to your gear, in your room. Truer words have never been spoken in the audiophile world. What you heard in your room, with your gear and your ears is what you heard. You made your decision based on what you heard. There is no substitute for doing what you did. Personally, I find the XPA-5 to be a killer amp at a great price. Would I have heard a difference between the two? Maybe...maybe not...ultimately it doesn't matter. What does matter is your opinion (and satisfaction) with your gear. Congrats on the new amp, I hope you get many, many years of listening pleasure from it!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2012 19:04:11 GMT -5
I just about wet my pants Chuckie!!! ;D ;D ;D
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2012 11:24:31 GMT -5
A couple things to note here:
1) Amps can and do sound different despite very similar specs. One parameter that has bearing on the sound is the "current" delivery capability of the amp. I have always favored high-current amps because of the authoritative control they exhibit over the speaker's drivers.
2) I also favor wide power-bandwidth designs. My H/K Sig. 2.0 had this and, for an amp with "only" 100 watts/ch. it really sounded marvelous.
3) Keep in mind that having many speakers in a showroom adversely affects *all* of the speakers in that room. The drivers, especially the woofers, react to the sound pressure in the room, stealing away some of the dynamics. That is probably one of the main reasons that the speakers in the Magnolia room did not sound so great across the board.
I have heard the Proceed AMP5 driving a set of Revel Salon speakers and the sound was to die for - very dynamic, very "fast" (high slew rate), good bottm-end, and great vocals and top-end. The AMP5 is a *very* good amplifier, do not doubt that...
-RW-
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