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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 7, 2012 13:54:03 GMT -5
I think you've said that, anything new to add?
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Post by jdskycaster on Aug 7, 2012 13:58:15 GMT -5
As mentioned above when properly designed tube or solid state amps are used within their limits they don't produce much distortion. And that's the issue here. and also as stated above, 'No one has ever (yes, ever!) heard a difference between two amplifiers with high input impedance, low output impedance, flat response, low distortion and low noise.'Absolutely true. The issue is that there are untold numbers who "think" they have.
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Post by thepcguy on Aug 7, 2012 14:40:18 GMT -5
I think you've said that, anything new to add? I've just pointed out what's in the article. Actually, there's nothing new to add. Harmonics, THD, etc. An amplifier....amplifies.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Aug 7, 2012 17:25:10 GMT -5
And that's the issue here. and also as stated above, 'No one has ever (yes, ever!) heard a difference between two amplifiers with high input impedance, low output impedance, flat response, low distortion and low noise.'Absolutely true. The issue is that there are untold numbers who "think" they have. And you guys can get away with posting these absolute, scientific facts without repercussion from the tweako community. Ahh well
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Post by Pauly on Aug 7, 2012 18:09:29 GMT -5
Maybe that's because pcguy posts these absolute, scientific facts without name calling and being rude. He posts the facts, quotes and whatever else, and then leaves it at that. Since you've been back, I've already seen you post something about "tweakos" a few times. A little bitter, jamrock? Ahh well.
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Post by jamrock on Aug 7, 2012 18:23:44 GMT -5
Maybe that's because pcguy posts these absolute, scientific facts without name calling and being rude. He posts the facts, quotes and whatever else, and then leaves it at that. Since you've been back, I've already seen you post something about "tweakos" a few times. A little bitter, jamrock? Ahh well. It would be nice if you could define what "Tweakos" means to you. Because it seems to me that you take offense to a word without knowing what it really means. Unless you and I can agree on this meaning, we are simply not communicating
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Post by Pauly on Aug 7, 2012 18:45:09 GMT -5
It doesn't matter, jam. We don't need to communicate. I don't take offense to you calling anybody a tweako. I was in the infantry for five years, so I can handle anything you can throw at me lol. I just think your relentless arguing about cables is a little silly to say the least. There's just no need to attack the cable believers like you do. State your opinion and move on. Why do you care so much that somebody thinks a cable can make a difference, or that one SS amp can sound different from another similarly designed SS amp? Who cares?!!! You go on, and on, and on about it. Doesn't make any sense man. It's just weird lol.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Aug 7, 2012 19:12:19 GMT -5
It doesn't matter, jam. We don't need to communicate. I don't take offense to you calling anybody a tweako. I was in the infantry for five years, so I can handle anything you can throw at me lol. I just think your relentless arguing about cables is a little silly to say the least. There's just no need to attack the cable believers like you do. State your opinion and move on. Why do you care so much that somebody thinks a cable can make a difference, or that one SS amp can sound different from another similarly designed SS amp? Who cares?!!! You go on, and on, and on about it. Doesn't make any sense man. It's just weird lol. This makes no sense. I have always responded to others who oppose my opinions. Why are you not disturbed by their relentless attack on me, but only my relentless responses and attack on them? Why don't you respond equally to them as you do to me? You are telling me a lot about you that I wish I never know. But I wish to leave it at that. I'm a loner. Always. Be well
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Aug 7, 2012 19:18:34 GMT -5
Fair enough.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Aug 7, 2012 19:23:43 GMT -5
I might disagree with you. But I will always respect you Respect! ;D
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Post by Pauly on Aug 7, 2012 19:27:33 GMT -5
Likewise.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 7, 2012 21:17:21 GMT -5
Maybe that's because pcguy posts these absolute, scientific facts without name calling and being rude. While I agree with your sentiment I found it rude to have my original comments, contributions, and work 'dismissed' by again quoting what had already been posted in this, and many other threads. Like you said later, 'have your say' and move on or contribute something new. I tried to pass on science based knowledge as part of the discussion, but he still couldn't resist his one note song.
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Post by thepcguy on Aug 7, 2012 21:21:09 GMT -5
Maybe that's because pcguy posts these absolute, scientific facts without name calling and being rude. While I agree with your sentiment I found it rude to have my original comments, contributions, and work 'dismissed' by again quoting what had already posted in this, and many other threads. Like you said later, 'have your say' and move on or contribute something new. I tried to pass on science based knowledge as part of the discussion, but he still couldn't resist his one note song. Well, the 'science based' knowledge is not new either. It's here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 7, 2012 21:25:46 GMT -5
So you think everyone here knows and understands it, and it shouldn't be passed on or discussed? Again being new I don't know everyone's knowledge level but I'm guessing someone learned something, but if you don't think it's relevant so be it.
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Post by thepcguy on Aug 7, 2012 21:33:13 GMT -5
So you think everyone here knows and understands it, and it shouldn't be passed on or discussed? Again being new I don't know everyone's knowledge level but I'm guessing someone learned something, but if you don't think it's relevant so be it. I didn't question the relevance of your info. As you said, we don't know everyone's knowledge level. I post what I post over and over again because I truly believe in it. They are intended for anyone lurking or fairly new to the Lounge. Of couse it is 'stale' information to the regulars here. And be forwarned. That one note song will play over and over again here.
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Post by sharkman on Aug 7, 2012 22:19:20 GMT -5
So how come you keep referencing that one study or whatever it was? If it was so true there would have been study after study which backed it up. Instead there seems to be just the one study by a guy who believes what the study he fashioned says with religious fervor. And fanatics who follow his beliefs have the same religious fervor instead of quietly and confidently presenting their evidence without using name calling terms like tweakos. Such demonstrations only show a defensiveness which shouldn't be present if one is so confident in one's facts.
As for me, I say believe whatever turns your crank. I don't care, as long as you don't marginalize others or try to cram your opinion down their throats. You can believe that Emotiva amps are the equal of the most expensive brands out there, and it will help you enjoy your system more and not get upgraditous.
But as I own an XPA-3 and can hear its high frequencies get harsh at about 85 db and up while my Parasound A21 amp stays smooth and detailed, excuse me if I smile up my sleeve when I hear the faithful all start singing the same hymn.
From the top gents!
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Post by thepcguy on Aug 8, 2012 13:22:42 GMT -5
So how come you keep referencing that one study or whatever it was? If it was so true there would have been study after study which backed it up. Instead there seems to be just the one study by a guy who believes what the study he fashioned says with religious fervor. And fanatics who follow his beliefs have the same religious fervor instead of quietly and confidently presenting their evidence without using name calling terms like tweakos. Such demonstrations only show a defensiveness which shouldn't be present if one is so confident in one's facts. As for me, I say believe whatever turns your crank. I don't care, as long as you don't marginalize others or try to cram your opinion down their throats. You can believe that Emotiva amps are the equal of the most expensive brands out there, and it will help you enjoy your system more and not get upgraditous. But as I own an XPA-3 and can hear its high frequencies get harsh at about 85 db and up while my Parasound A21 amp stays smooth and detailed, excuse me if I smile up my sleeve when I hear the faithful all start singing the same hymn. From the top gents! Have you seen any study that proves otherwise? Please post it here. Thanks.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 8, 2012 16:17:21 GMT -5
And be forwarned. That one note song will play over and over again here. I have no problem with you posting it in every relevant thread ... once. However when your only response to disagreement or comment is to post it again (or quote it) then it's rude and unproductive. I'll point out that I never disagreed yet you still had to quote again to refute my post. I subscribed to The Audio Critic beginning with Issue #1 back in around 1977. By 1980 I had the first eight or so but left them in an anechoic chamber when I was testing some of the worlds best speakers (the original B&W 801, the first Sound Lab electrostats, and the Beveredge Model 3). I'd read TAC while waiting for graphs to finish, I believe in science and measurements too (and I blew away my acoustics class with my final project :~). Actually I think Peter made the comments you quote in one of those original issues of the late 70's and then reprinted them in the issue #24 you reference, that doesn't make them any more or less relevant. I admit it's been a while since I read TAC, is there another back story or study to what you post or just these words? "In controlled, double-blind listening tests, no one has ever (yes, ever) heard the difference in two amplifiers" - Here Peter is saying in essence that (as of 1977, 1994, ?) he is aware of every (yes, every) double-blind listening test ever taken - and he knows the results. So we just take his word that everyone checks in with Peter after doing a test to let him know what happened? "with high input impedance" (important to make the amp easy to drive), "low output impedance" (important to make the amp insensitive to speaker load and give it high damping factor), "flat response" (amplify all frequencies equally), "low distortion" (hmm, THD & IM? Peter used to talk about TIM and SID too but you don't hear about them much anymore), "low noise" (quiet background), "when operated at precisely matched levels (+/-0.1 dB)" (one can't be louder), "and not clipped" (sufficient wattage to drive the speaker). - Not much to pick at here other than being a bit vague, and I did want to make it clear why these things are important. There used to be some great speakers (typically electrostats) that would really test low output impedance (the Bevs got down to about a half an ohm at high freqs), high efficiency speakers really put noise specs to the test. I don't know what the toughest speakers to drive are these days; but great, revealing speakers must be part of the discussion when talking about amps, and in the end the synergy between amp, speaker, and room is one of the most significant parts of the reproduction chain. I guess I'd wonder how you know that every amp that gets discussed here meets all these requirements with the speakers and room in question?
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Post by thepcguy on Aug 8, 2012 16:41:41 GMT -5
And be forwarned. That one note song will play over and over again here. I have no problem with you posting it in every relevant thread ... once. However when your only response to disagreement or comment is to post it again (or quote it) then it's rude and unproductive. I'll point out that I never disagreed yet you still had to quote again to refute my post. I guess it's not rude to RE-ENFORCE your post (highlighted in red). I thought when you presented Harmonics, it might confuse some readers specifically with regards to this comparison (XPA-5 vs Proceed).
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Post by sharkman on Aug 8, 2012 16:42:36 GMT -5
Good post. The room, the speakers being used, etc. all have a part to play.
What I don't get is how this 'study' is suddenly now relevant for blu ray players as it's been posted in an Oppo thread. I didn't realize the Oppo has an amp section!
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