prohobo
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Post by prohobo on Mar 30, 2012 9:10:15 GMT -5
Yes you are. See notes above in this thread. At least on b&w speakers two Inputs equals two crossover networks. If this weren't true, when you unplug the top terminal you would still hear the tweeter. Thanks - I didn't notice that second post. I stand corrected, IF the speaker runs two separate cross-over networkss (that's a big "IF" - because most home speakers do NOT have separate cross-overs internally), then you would properly be bi-amping your speakers and would certainly improve the sound. I am not familiar with those speakers and was under the false assumption that the speakers had a single cross over network inside, in which case passive bi-amping does nothing (unless the wire/gauge/amps are different). I have seen so many speakers with dual speaker posts, claiming to bi-amp, when both speaker posts go to ONE SINGLE cross-over. Making any bi-amping superfluousness and a waste of money. I would play it safe and be skeptical, by connecting only one speaker post at a time and listening to see if only one driver plays. If they both play, then you know that it is truly NOT a bi-amp designed speaker and it was more of a marketing gimmick. Note: I actively bi-amp my stereo speakers with a CSX3400 cross-over and also run a passive-cross over on my IRIS drivers. BTW: Not owning any Emotiva Speaker, I notice some of them have two speaker posts for tweeter and mid - are these REALLY running two cross-overs? Just curious. |
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Post by jackfish on Mar 30, 2012 9:26:57 GMT -5
When the speaker terminal bridge is in place there is in effect a single crossover network.
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prohobo
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Post by prohobo on Mar 30, 2012 10:15:36 GMT -5
When the speaker terminal bridge is in place there is in effect a single crossover network. Is that also true for the Emotiva Speakers with twin binding posts? I have seen several speakers with twin posts and a terminal bridge, but inside the speaker they are only running a single cross-over. I have confirmed they are superfluousness, because when you call them on it - they tell you they run to ONE internal cross-over. Thus removing the bridge made no difference, which was more of a marketing ploy (pseudo-bi-amping). They will then start spinning you a tale so deep in pseudo science, that with a few fancy buzz words the ill-informed will buy into it. To date, I have only seen one speaker (with twin posts) that I have confirmed that has twin passive internal cross-overs. When you open the speaker and you see two sets of wires (from each binding post) connect to the SAME point on a single internal cross-over, it's fake. Personally, I find it consumer fraud when they do this. It really pisses me off and I think it is a shame that they snow-job customers into thinking they are getting something they pay for isn't real. Side note: I actually bought some cheap speakers at Goodwill (they had a tweeter, mid, and woofer. I ripped out the single cross-over in the speaker and then using the CX3400 active cross-over, ran them in a bi-amp and later a tri-amp configuration. To my amazement I was able to get some very decent sound out of the $10 dollar speakers. It was also fun to play with the cross-over to see what freqs each speaker could handle and set-up the proper cross-overs. |
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Post by sounder on Mar 30, 2012 14:27:06 GMT -5
Interesting that a speaker company would do what you're saying. Obviously if both wires connect to the same spot that is fraud. But it might be dangerous if you were to biamp them because effectively the two amp outputs are connected together directly.
I don't know if the b&w system has one crossover device or two. But it does have two signal paths, even though it may be on one circuit board.
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prohobo
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Post by prohobo on Mar 30, 2012 15:36:11 GMT -5
Interesting that a speaker company would do what you're saying. Obviously if both wires connect to the same spot that is fraud. But it might be dangerous if you were to biamp them because effectively the two amp outputs are connected together directly. I don't know if the b&w system has one crossover device or two. But it does have two signal paths, even though it may be on one circuit board. Good point, it is possible to have two signal paths on the same board. Just look at the solder connection. If they are solder to the same connection point then you know it is doing nothing (fake). I guess the easiest test would be to connect to one terminal post to see if you hear just one driver or both. If you hear both then they are certainly wired into one passive cross-over. Just like with many other marketing "buzz" words the bi-wiring and (passive) bi-amping marketing move has been to boost sales. As with any industry, there are those that will add an extra wing-nut and tell you anything you want to hear to jack up the price and make you feel special. It only costs a few cents to add a second terminal post on the back of the speaker, if you can drop a buzz word in your marketing material - set up for "bi-wiring" - it could add a couple C-notes to the price tag. BTW: Any speaker company that is advertising "Bi-wire" speaker capable - well I think I would avoid them like the plague. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 18:52:57 GMT -5
Just for some of you guys to try, take a dual binding post speaker, remove the jumpers and tell me what happens when only powering 1 set of the jumpers. Just give it a try and post what happens. This is a b&W 800D crossover, do you notice anything?   |
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Post by sounder on Mar 30, 2012 23:21:03 GMT -5
N8dogg I Did do that and noted my results above. Your photo looks to me like there are multiple signal paths. One on the brown wires and one on the red and black wires and one on the blue wire.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2012 23:50:16 GMT -5
N8dogg I Did do that and noted my results above. Your photo looks to me like there are multiple signal paths. One on the brown wires and one on the red and black wires and one on the blue wire. every speaker with 2 binding posts will do what your speaker did, thats what I'm getting at, it doesn't mean the crossover is separate. It does it on every speaker I've ever owned. The signal paths are somewhat separate but are still all working together. Can you see why you wouldn't get any sound from the set of terminals that don't have the jumpers or wire going to them? It doesn't mean you have a true bi-ampable speaker, thats all I'm getting at. The crossover is still in tact no matter how you do it. You have to eliminate the crossover completely. |
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prohobo
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Post by prohobo on Mar 31, 2012 17:14:29 GMT -5
Seems like the white wires (without looking at the solder points) make the blue/red/black somewhat superfluous or maybe a signal bridge. The brown wire (regardless of jump setting) seem to create a continuous circuit. Of course I can't see the solder points or the speaker connection points, but it would "seem" that this is not a separated bi-amp cross-over.
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Post by aazeez1975 on Apr 6, 2012 8:36:44 GMT -5
I was running a tri-amp setup with either DCX or miniDSP doing active crossover responsibilities. I have tried passive tri-amping and its not worth it. The problem is that power is not the problem. It usually is the room mode sucking the crap out of some frequency band.
With active you can play a lot with crossover points and may be eq for a smooth response curve. But you will never be satisfied, and keep tweaking until you had it. Any observation without level matching is meaningless. Get good electronics from Emo, as much as you can buy, then just try different speakers if you fancy changing the sound. The biggest difference will always be your room.
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Apr 6, 2012 9:57:36 GMT -5
The dArts speaker and amplifier system from Phase Technology is designed from the start as a true bi-amp/tri-amp system. Each of the speakers in the system (whichever ones you get) have no crossovers in them at all! All the crossovers are in the amp module. Simply hook up the amp module to your processor and it will configure the individual drivers of each speaker to your room. It's the only system I've seen like this.
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Post by sounder on Apr 9, 2012 12:15:28 GMT -5
So here is an update. I can tell you that regardless of how you see the binding post question, in my speakers, it IS two separate signal paths.... one for tweeters and one for bass. I set them up both ways. After listening, I decided the soundstage is better with the two UPA1s than biamping. However, after listening more to both setups, I listed the UPA2 for sale. Well, someone came and bought it, and as we've listened more with the UPA1s, it's clear that the whole setup is smoother, and a bit less bright with the UPA2 in the mix. I made a mistake selling the amp, and I'm looking for another one.
If you are considering this option, it's worth listening in your own environment. Clearly, it makes a difference biamping this way. Which is better for you may depend on your speakers and the rest of your setup. I'm having seller's remorse and want another UPA2. Anyone got one for sale?
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Post by solidstate on Apr 14, 2012 16:07:12 GMT -5
I can build a PC and use a couple of sound cards with Allocator Lite and achieve better results than the cost of the MiniDSP solution. I really like MiniDSP but the pricing is RIDICULOUS. They sell electronics worth ten bucks for... $200 bucks...
Personally I think when any electronics vendor marks up to that point they are scammers no matter how good their product is.
The ultimate is DEQX or TacT with Boz's "power DACs" being technically absolute perfect design. Software is always "another story"... LOL
There are many gurus out there that consider Boz's solutions the most technically superior design for next generation all digital xover/amplification available.
Dr. John Hsu and many others believe this to be the case...
As do I!
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Post by solidstate on Apr 14, 2012 16:24:04 GMT -5
N8dogg I Did do that and noted my results above. Your photo looks to me like there are multiple signal paths. One on the brown wires and one on the red and black wires and one on the blue wire. every speaker with 2 binding posts will do what your speaker did, thats what I'm getting at, it doesn't mean the crossover is separate. It does it on every speaker I've ever owned. The signal paths are somewhat separate but are still all working together. Can you see why you wouldn't get any sound from the set of terminals that don't have the jumpers or wire going to them? It doesn't mean you have a true bi-ampable speaker, thats all I'm getting at. The crossover is still in tact no matter how you do it. You have to eliminate the crossover completely. Fantastic post and I've never heard anyone in the public arena mention this. The extra binding posts are put there out of concern that IGNORANT consumers might not purchase because there are only two posts. It's also a great way to sell more cable to people. Just as said passive bi-amping is a TOTAL WASTE OF TIME. |
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Post by solidstate on Apr 14, 2012 16:26:41 GMT -5
So here is an update. I can tell you that regardless of how you see the binding post question, in my speakers, it IS two separate signal paths.... one for tweeters and one for bass. I set them up both ways. After listening, I decided the soundstage is better with the two UPA1s than biamping. However, after listening more to both setups, I listed the UPA2 for sale. Well, someone came and bought it, and as we've listened more with the UPA1s, it's clear that the whole setup is smoother, and a bit less bright with the UPA2 in the mix. I made a mistake selling the amp, and I'm looking for another one. If you are considering this option, it's worth listening in your own environment. Clearly, it makes a difference biamping this way. Which is better for you may depend on your speakers and the rest of your setup. I'm having seller's remorse and want another UPA2. Anyone got one for sale? Your point? And I've seen idiots attenuate with speaker wire to give various sound colourizations... MORONIC PS The UPA-1 is a little more "bright" with lower impedance loads than the others |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 15, 2012 2:57:06 GMT -5
So here is an update. I can tell you that regardless of how you see the binding post question, in my speakers, it IS two separate signal paths.... one for tweeters and one for bass. I set them up both ways. After listening, I decided the soundstage is better with the two UPA1s than biamping. However, after listening more to both setups, I listed the UPA2 for sale. Well, someone came and bought it, and as we've listened more with the UPA1s, it's clear that the whole setup is smoother, and a bit less bright with the UPA2 in the mix. I made a mistake selling the amp, and I'm looking for another one. If you are considering this option, it's worth listening in your own environment. Clearly, it makes a difference biamping this way. Which is better for you may depend on your speakers and the rest of your setup. I'm having seller's remorse and want another UPA2. Anyone got one for sale? PS The UPA-1 is a little more "bright" with lower impedance loads than the others Solidstate, I have 4 ohm speakers the axiom m80 v3's (v2's with v3 guts). Is there a reason the UPA-1 is brighter with lower impedance loads t? Is this the same situation with a UPA-2? Will this UPA-1 brightness be fixed if I got an X-series amp? |
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