rolling opamps?

[prohobo]

A friend of mind was talking about swamping (rolling) out his opamp on his DAC/AMP which changes the tone/color of the music. After listening to him, it sounded much like those who swap out tubes on their tube amps to get a different tone.

Is rolling opamps the new tube rolling for the digital age?

Anyway - I did some searching on the net and found out there is sort of a subculture for audiophile and diy buffs rolling (swaping) out their opamps to try different ones to get the tone/color/brightness out of their DACs. There are even a few 3-party vendors that make some just for that purpose.

I am sure if one were to open up the XDA-1 we could also swap opamps. The XDA-1 uses the Burr Brown OPA-2134 - which is on the list of some of the ones that are swapped.

I did find this thread about some trying out different ones and their feedback on different ones. Very interesting.
www.head-fi.org/t/397691/audio-gd-discrete-op-amps-reviewed-opa-earth-opa-moon-opa-sun-v-2

Has anyone rolled their opamp?
Has anyone tried to do it on the XDA-1?

[GreenKiwi]

I believe someone on the forum modded their XDA. You might be able to find his posts.

[Pauly]

emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=prepro&action=display&thread=22559

[Deleted]

Don't bother. If the XDA-1 isn't to your liking, buy a different DAC. All that you will accomplish by swapping out the opamps will be to void your warranty and make the unit difficult to sell on the 2nd-hand market.

This advice is coming from a guy who sold the best hi-end gear back in the day and currently has a *killer* 5-channel tube/MOSFET power amp. There is no way in hell that I would start tube rolling on my amp. If BK Butler didn't get it right, how in the world am I supposed to do better than the guy who is world renowned for his unique designs and has the patents to prove it??

Spend your time and money getting the best speakers, room treatments, and source material that you can. *That* is where you will really be able to enjoy the fruits of your efforts and money...

-RW-

[prohobo]

Jun 6, 2012 20:08:23 GMT -5 @rlw said:

Don't bother. If the XDA-1 isn't to your liking, buy a different DAC. All that you will accomplish by swapping out the opamps will be to void your warranty and make the unit difficult to sell on the 2nd-hand market.

This advice is coming from a guy who sold the best hi-end gear back in the day and currently has a *killer* 5-channel tube/MOSFET power amp. There is no way in hell that I would start tube rolling on my amp. If BK Butler didn't get it right, how in the world am I supposed to do better than the guy who is world renowned for his unique designs and has the patents to prove it??

Spend your time and money getting the best speakers, room treatments, and source material that you can. *That* is where you will really be able to enjoy the fruits of your efforts and money...

-RW-

I appreciate your points, however some of us like to DIY and mod - and less concerned about the warranty. I just finished building my own speakers, modding the tweeters, and also the passive cross-over. I enjoy it and also learn a lot as I make changes (good and bad). My tweaks and adjustments and builds have certainly improved the sound (for me and my ears anyway).

Pauly - thanks for the link....

[Deleted]

Go for it, dude.

I have spent countless hours wielding a soldering iron. But I buy my audio/HT systems to listen to. Different strokes for different folks - if it makes you happy, that is all that counts...

-RW-

[prohobo]

Jun 6, 2012 20:18:34 GMT -5 @rlw said:

Go for it, dude.

I have spent countless hours wielding a soldering iron. But I buy my audio/HT systems to listen to. Different strokes for different folks - if it makes you happy, that is all that counts...

-RW-

My thought was that I will most likely get the XDA-2 when it comes out, since the XDA-1 looks to be going into the history books. Rather than sell it - I think it would be a great platform to practice some mods and do a little experimentation. It is a great platform and solid PSU - be fun.

You are right, if it was a $1000 or $3000 DAC I would not touch it - but at $199 - well I couldn't think of a better intro-level product to use a base to learn to make some mods.

[jlafrenz]

You can usually find opamps rather inexpensive so it might be fun to try out. If you don't like them you aren't out a ton of cash either. That's the nice thing about a DAC at that price, a small investment may make a difference. It also may not, but it's cheap entertainment.

[Deleted]

Sounds like you have a good strategy, go for it and please let us know the results! I'm rooting for ya, homeboy!!

-RW-

[prohobo]

Jun 6, 2012 23:58:51 GMT -5 @rlw said:

Sounds like you have a good strategy, go for it and please let us know the results! I'm rooting for ya, homeboy!!

-RW-

I placed an order for the "Earth", "Moon", and "Sun" (3 different ones) from audio-gd. They are about $25 a piece. Which - can replace the one in the XDA-1 (OPA-2134)

According to the website (which have been concurred by independent reviewers on other forums) is the following characteristics:



Earth = sound characteristics is neutral and natural
Moon = sound characteristics is a bit of tube-like (vacuum valve) , soft and slightly thick
Sun = sound characteristics bright - seems like most people like this one the best.

Here is a very detailed an interesting review:
www.head-fi.org/t/397691/audio-gd-discrete-op-amps-reviewed-opa-earth-opa-moon-opa-sun-v-2#post_5238657

Another interesting review:
www.head-fi.org/t/397691/audio-gd-discrete-op-amps-reviewed-opa-earth-opa-moon-opa-sun-v-2/90#post_5450139

However, I am about to go on vacation until the beginning of July. So I suspect when I get home from vacation they will be at my home and I will start the FUN!

[RadTech]

I've rolled the opamp(s) in my Matrix M Stage headphone amp. Look on HeadFi.org about swapping opamp(s) in the M Stage. There is a good discussion about the sound of different opamps. There are many different choices and it is like tube rolling. The amp came with a Burr Brown OPA-2134 but right now I'm using dual BB 627 as they are mono. They cost me almost $30 a piece but sound good. The nice thing about the amp is that the opamp is plug and play. No soldering required. Make sure you buy from a reputable dealer, not on Ebay as there are plenty of rejects and counterfeits. Have fun! ;D

[prohobo]

Jun 7, 2012 10:19:12 GMT -5 RadTech said:

I've rolled the opamp(s) in my Matrix M Stage headphone amp. Look on HeadFi.org about swapping opamp(s) in the M Stage. There is a good discussion about the sound of different opamps. There are many different choices and it is like tube rolling. The amp came with a Burr Brown OPA-2134 but right now I'm using dual BB 627 as they are mono. They cost me almost $30 a piece but sound good. The nice thing about the amp is that the opamp is plug and play. No soldering required. Make sure you buy from a reputable dealer, not on Ebay as there are plenty of rejects and counterfeits. Have fun! ;D

Thanks - I have been reading a lot on Headfi.org - very interesting stuff. If you have a particular link that you think I should read, please forward it. BTW: where did you buy the BB 627?

I am ready for my next project, I just finished my speaker project - which I posted in the DIY section emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=diy&action=display&thread=24562

[RadTech]

Sorry almost forgot about this thread. I buy from Digikey or Mouser.

[G-Man]

Initially, I didn't think I was going to be interested in this topic. But the more that gets posted and linked, the more intriguing it becomes. Thanks, guys.

I'm very interested in hearing about the performance of the modded XDA-1's.

[Deleted]

I've modded everything from pc soundcards to receivers to pretty much anything I can. The XDA is a cheap DAC, it you fudge it up? so what it's $250, you can throw it away and get another one and learn from your mistakes. I love the idea or rolling yout oamps. I've change out a few different ones on my auzentech forte but for that card it's easy. It's just take out and put in. My xonar STX was a different story but in the end it's a fun thing to do. I can't say I've had any times where the sound has been drastically different but this is just a hobby and it's fun to do different things!

[roadrunner]

Just a little reminder to those looking to "roll opamps" in Emotiva products. You need to be aware that in the majority of Emotiva components the output stages are discrete designs. A year or two ago, a Lounge member was talking about rolling the opamp in one of Emo's products; and, Lonnie posted that replacing the opamp would have little to no impact on the sound quality because Emotiva was using a discrete stage and the opamp was being used to buffer the signal. I don't remember the rest of Lonnie's reply, but he gave additional information as to why replacing the BB 2134 would not accomplish what the modder was aiming for.

On another occasion Lonnie asked a Lounge member to PM him for more detailed information on the circuit design so he would not be spinning his wheels. Lonnie is open to assisting customers wanting to modify their Emo purchase -- after all, Lonnie designed the circuity you are looking to mod and picking his mind could be quite useful.

[garbulky]

You might be interested in the asus xonar essence. They have swappable op-amps and is designed for easy swapping, no soldiering, I believe. Also it is one nice DAC.

[Chuck Elliot]

The concept of making discrete component op-amp replacements goes a long way back.

40 years ago a company called Southwest Technical Products Corp. offered such a kit. SWTPC offered many electronics kits for audio. Later they became more computer focused and dropped their other products.

Here is a link to their catalog circa 1969. Look at the "195 preamp" module:

www.wass.net/othermanuals/SWTPC.pdf

[paintedklown]

Jun 8, 2012 14:18:36 GMT -5 G-Man said:

Initially, I didn't think I was going to be interested in this topic. But the more that gets posted and linked, the more intriguing it becomes. Thanks, guys.

I'm very interested in hearing about the performance of the modded XDA-1's.

+1. I am not very well versed in technical things and changing electronics parts, but it certainly does sound like a lot of fun.

Can someone with explain to us "laymen" what an op amp does, and how it affects the sound?

Why would it be beneficial to change the op amp in a DAC?

EDIT: So, I did some reading on wikipedia, and from the description on there, they seem to be like tiny amplifiers of sorts. Am I way off base here?

[Chuck Elliot]

Nope, you're right on.

OAs model the perfect amplifier, high input impedance, low output impedance. Generally with 2 inputs +/- and 1 output.

They come in single, dual and quad packages with 1x 2x and 4x amplifiers in one IC.

You can build amps, buffers, filters......with them.