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Post by rouslanbel on May 20, 2013 19:01:46 GMT -5
Bump for my question to Emotiva team, Lonnie, Keith, anyone...?
I understand that there are a lot of people wanting to know the sound quality of this amp particularly compared to existing Emotiva amps. I also want to know this, but as everyone has a different set up, different room acoustics, different hearing perception, etc., this is an extremely subjective question. There is no science in one person thinking an amp sounds better, so I'm looking for the hard data.
I'm from the school that believes if the design, engineering, and parts selection are superior, then an amp will be both powerful and most importantly it will be TRANSPARENT. If the XPA-1L is a well executed component, it will feed your speakers everything your "source" supplies, without color, audible distortion, or clipping of dynamic musical peaks. If it does this better than another amp (example: a pair of XPA-1L's versus a XPA-2) the sound quality will be superior.
Cheers! I agree, this is potentially better approach, but it is hard to evaluate without full disclosure from the design team. Not every company will do that and there are reasons behind it. At the same time, not many consumers would invest many tens of hours of their time to make informed decision at that level of technical details. May be it's just me, but it seems to be a product line confusion in Emotiva amp lineup. For a layman "good-better-best" is easier to understand without investing a lot of time. I am still not sure how XPA-1L is positioned SQ wise. I could assume it is better than XPA-1 SQ wise but Is it better than XPR-1 for up to 250 watts ? Reviews of people who owns both may at least give me some information for my purchasing decision. |
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Post by Gary Cook on May 20, 2013 19:57:40 GMT -5
Based on my experience, a long time with Class A amps, plus recent experience with XPA-2/3/5's the following would be my assessment.
Up to ~10 watts an XPA-1 and XPA-1L would sound the same as they are both operating in Class A
From ~10 watts to ~35 watts the XPA-1L would sound superior as the XPA-1 will have moved to Class A/B while the XPA-1L will still be in Class A.
From ~35 watts to 250 watts (@ 8 ohms) the XPA-1 and XPA1L will sound the same as they are both operating in Class A/B.
Over 250 watts (@ 8 ohms), the XPA-1 still has that capacity up to 500 watts (@ 8 ohms)
Keeping the above in mind, I'm seriously considering a pair of XPA-1L's and so I'm testing the approximate wattage I use in the course of my stereo listening. I have no fear for HT use as the XPA-5 (200 watts @ 8 ohms) that I currently have has more than enough power, so the 250 watts (@ 8 ohms) from the XPA-1L is plenty.
My most recent Class A amp was rated at ~25 watts (@ 8 ohms) and I upgraded (to 120 watts @ 8 ohms) due to it not being anywhere near sufficient for HT use. However, it was OK for stereo listening, but my current speakers are not as efficient as those used with the Class A amp, so I need to do a bit more testing.
In the end my answer will be simply arrived at, if I do the majority of my stereo listening at less than ~35 watts, then a pair of XPA-1L's will find their way downunder. I have to be this careful as the 30 day return is not very effective from half a world away, so in home testing isn't viable.
My view would be that the above logic could be applied to any Emotiva power amp comparison to the XPA-1L, just the numbers will change.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by rouslanbel on May 21, 2013 8:36:37 GMT -5
Garry,
Thanks for your reply - it make total sense for XPA-1 vs XPA-1L positioning.
But, how XPR-1 compares to XPA-1L SQ wise is still unclear to me.
Does XPA-1 sounds better than XPR-1 for the first 35 watts and than XPR-1 takes the lead or XPR-1 sounds better at any level?
My listening level varies for different recordings - usually withing 1-2 blue dots on XPA-2 per channel, BUT for example for organ music I could see 5+ dots per channel.
Don't know how to translate dots to watts either. Is it a linear scale?
Could I assume 1-2 dots roughly translates to below 35 watts?
I am really trying to understand my upgrade path from XPA-2.
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on May 21, 2013 12:56:23 GMT -5
^My guesstimate based simply on db level is that 2 dots is no more than 4 watts (not including transients that may not register on the XPA-2 meter). I think most people (but not all) would be hard pressed to tell a difference in SQ between the Emotiva amps. I believe that I can hear a small, but noticeable, difference between my XPA-5 and XPA-2; but others haven't. Just a question; have you listened to other Emotiva amps and have you heard a noticeable difference?
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Post by rouslanbel on May 21, 2013 15:30:59 GMT -5
XPA-2 is the only Emotiva amp I have.
Didn't have a chance to hear any other.
The system I have seems to be pretty resolving in terms of details, there is a good chance I may get an audible difference
I know Emotiva has 30 days home trial option, but installing another amp or two is quite involved (even hauling 100 lbs boxes is not the easiest thing to do).
Trying to understand more to minimize number of iterations.
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Post by gransport on May 21, 2013 16:22:27 GMT -5
Beeing overseas I have been waiting some extra days before my XPA-1Ls finally arrived.
On top of that I had to spend another week at work away from home without beeing able to check out the amps.
I have noticed a lot of people asking for reveiws, and I have been watching this forum closely looking for hints on what to expect, without finding much info on what most people thinks about these amps.
For that reason I would like to say a few words about my impressions after 4 days with the amps hooked up.
I am not an expert or hardcore audiophile, and my equipment is propably no way near good enough to test these amps to their maximum potential.
All my speakers are rated at 8Ohm nominal, so Im not even close to challenge the amps powercapabilities.
I have been using my Yamaha Z7 receiver as Dac and preamp using Spotify through Air play as source.
The testing has been done using my JBL TL260s, B&W CDM7SEs and my Audiovector M3 Signatures.
I have been running Class A most of the time.
I have not yet been able to distinguish between class A and AB. There may very well be a difference, but so far I have not been able to "catch" the difference.
The reason for that may be the fact that I have to "take a walk" through the room and perhaps loose my perspective when changing mode.
I am also aware of my source/preamp limitations ( I have an XDA-2 on its way )
So far there is no doubt that the XPA-1Ls sounds more open, powerfull and detailed than my Z7 (even when using the Z7 preamp)
I have for some time used an HK AVR8500 as power amp, biamping my speakers, and the HK isnt even close.
The same goes for my Rotel RA6 integrated amp.
The SQ is to my ears quite a few notches better than the Yamaha.
Its not a day/night difference, but then again the Z7 used to be a mid to high end receiver known for good SQ.
The difference is however definitively there, and there is no turning back from this point.
So far the best speakers I have tested with the XPA-1Ls turned out to be the Audiovector M3 Sigs. wich sounds fantastic with the XPA-1Ls.
I am writing this to give people a hint of what to expect.
I am by no meens an expert on these subjects, just want to give people a heads up on what to expect .
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Post by milt99 on May 21, 2013 20:53:29 GMT -5
Excellent post Gary and thanks you for your impressions gransport. Ordering from Norway is an act of faith, hope it works out.
Gary, I meant to reply to your post earlier but stuff got in the way.
Let me get on my soapbox for a moment:
As far as owners replying with detailed comparisons to what ever amp the requester owns:
It's far more complicated than that.
1. what makes you think that anyone who owns the 1L also owns 3 to 5 other Emotiva amps? Short answer, they don't.
2. I can only judge how the 1Ls sound in my system, in my room with my music and my ears. Your system and room is going to be way different than mine.
3. Several of us have posted our impressions but with all of the noise on this thread, "Hey Dude", Yeah Man I hear ya" and all of the other OT mindless posts and the fact that it took 3 shipments to get operational amps, this thread is 74 pages and it should be about a 1/4 of that.
4. If you live in the free shipping, 30 day audition zone, quit asking someone else to make up your mind. The fact that there aren't 15 posts answering the question should tell you something. Something like it isn't going to happen.
Do I like my 1Ls in my system? Why yes, yes I do. Do they sound better than your amp in your system? I have no bloody idea. Are they a great deal? IMO, definitely.
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Post by Gary Cook on May 21, 2013 21:35:02 GMT -5
I have not yet been able to distinguish between class A and AB. There may very well be a difference, but so far I have not been able to "catch" the difference. The reason for that may be the fact that I have to "take a walk" through the room and perhaps loose my perspective when changing mode. I have no doubt that the difference between an Emotiva amp in Class A and in Class A/B is going to be subtle, very subtle. I have no experience (yet) with an XPA-1L but I have had years of Class A amp use plus I have on many occasions compared the operation of a Marantz PM7200 in class A (25 watts) and Class A/B (95 watts). I was so impressed by the sound quality that I almost bought one, but 95 watts wasn't enough for my HT use. What I will try and do is list the difference we as a group found between the classes and I hope that may help the XPA-1L reviewers in what to possibly look for. The PM7200 could be switched between classes, but only with a power cycle, so we had to really listen and remember for that time so as to pick the differences. What I noticed were a more realistic sound to cymbals, more metallic one of my co listeners commented. The sound stage was no wider, one even commented that it was narrower. But I suspect that comes from comparison to the increase in depth and height that all listeners discerned. All noted that both male and female voices were fuller, some described it as richer. I was impressed by the fullness of the male tenor voices in their lower register. A generalisation, on simple acoustic vinyl Class A sounded a little smoother and touch cleaner. This was not so evident with rock, pop or (light) metal. The sources were interesting, we played a lot of vinyl and I must say that I could more easily pick out the differences with that source. CD's not so much, unfortunately we didn't have access to SACD's back then, it was 10+ years ago. My suggestion, pop on a Dianna Krall, Norah Jones, Michael Buble etc SACD, with stripped back instrumentation and listen for the cymbals, the breathing into the microphone, fingertips on the strings of the double bass etc. Look for a deeper and higher sound stage and see if you can pick any additional warmth in the overall sound. Cheers Gary |
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Post by ocezam on May 22, 2013 7:38:32 GMT -5
1. what makes you think that anyone who owns the 1L also owns 3 to 5 other Emotiva amps? Short answer, they don't. Actually, many of them do. I've had XPA-5, 2, 100, and 1L's in my home in the past 2 months. I'm far from rare on this issue. 2. I can only judge how the 1Ls sound in my system, in my room with my music and my ears. Your system and room is going to be way different than mine. No kidding? 3. Several of us have posted our impressions but with all of the noise on this thread, "Hey Dude", Yeah Man I hear ya" and all of the other OT mindless posts and the fact that it took 3 shipments to get operational amps, this thread is 74 pages and it should be about a 1/4 of that. Yep. Isn't this forum fun. Lot's of people communicating. Great place to hang out!  4. If you live in the free shipping, 30 day audition zone, quit asking someone else to make up your mind. The fact that there aren't 15 posts answering the question should tell you something. Something like it isn't going to happen. Where did anyone ask someone to "make up their mind"? This thread is exactly what this forum is about. Discussing the good, and the bad, of audio equipment. Any topic with lots of interest will get lots of posts. Many of those posts will seem irrelevant to SOME posters and extremely relevant to others. C'est la vie! ... |
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Post by tweed on May 23, 2013 17:10:18 GMT -5
Made the investment in a pair of these little beauties today. I beleive them to be a good fit into my system being that my speakers are very efficient (94db) they will spend a good part of their life pumping class A.
Many thanks to Dark Ranger who gave so much time and energy. Heck, to all that went thru some trails and tribulations!
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Post by ocezam on May 23, 2013 19:08:32 GMT -5
Made the investment in a pair of these little beauties today. So you are replacing your XPA-200 with them? Do you listen to much two channel or mostly movies? Let us know what you think... .. |
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Post by tweed on May 24, 2013 9:00:35 GMT -5
ocezam,
Yes, they will replace the XPA-200. Not that I felt anything was lacking but more for possible small refinements. I have never had mono blocks before and find the idea intriguing.
My listening habits and priorities are heavily weighted towards stereo, HT comes into play but not so much.
I will do my best to give my impressions. I'm not a big techie guy as I simply do not have the training...which is why I appreciate being able to read the thoughts and tests of those more inlighted folks here on the board. I do have good ears and really get excited about beautiful sound.
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Post by ocezam on May 24, 2013 19:16:10 GMT -5
I do have good ears and really get excited about beautiful sound. And that's really all you need. I'd like to hear your impressions. ... |
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Post by dima333a on May 28, 2013 8:06:38 GMT -5
I wonder if this class A rating is at 4 or 8 ohms?! Don't know if that makes a difference... It is the amp rating at both 4 and 8 ohms. You know.... I wanted to rise this issue for a while.... The official rating is 35 watt / 8 Ohm in class A. Technically speaking, class A refers to the bias current relatively to the output current. With 4 Ohm load, the output current to deliver 35 Watts will be bigger than for 8 Ohms. Thus, for 4 Ohm the output in class A will be lower. It is easy to calculate. P= I*I*R. Assuming we are working with the same bias current I(8ohms)=I(4ohms)=SQRT(P/R), I.e. P/R must remain constant. Thus, for 4 Ohm load, the class A output will be about half of what you get with 8 Ohm load, i.e. about 17.5 watt. |
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Post by garbulky on May 28, 2013 8:14:37 GMT -5
You sure about that? I know it's not going to be more than 35 w, but I didn't know it would be less.
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Post by Jim on May 28, 2013 8:25:11 GMT -5
It is the amp rating at both 4 and 8 ohms. You know.... I wanted to rise this issue for a while.... The official rating is 35 watt / 8 Ohm in class A. Technically speaking, class A refers to the bias current relatively to the output current. With 4 Ohm load, the output current to deliver 35 Watts will be bigger than for 8 Ohms. Thus, for 4 Ohm the output in class A will be lower. It is easy to calculate. P= I*I*R. Assuming we are working with the same bias current I(8ohms)=I(4ohms)=SQRT(P/R), I.e. P/R must remain constant. Thus, for 4 Ohm load, the class A output will be about half of what you get with 8 Ohm load, i.e. about 17.5 watt. I would agree with you - if Emotiva hadn't stated that it's 35 in 4 and 8. It's probably micro-processor controlled anyway, so there isn't much point to making assumptions based on the mathematics. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that I'd read it in a couple posts from Emotiva staff. |
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Post by DYohn on May 28, 2013 8:41:28 GMT -5
It is rare for an amplifier to be so simple that Ohm's Law calculations have much meaning - unless you're talking about car audio, of course. Most modern hifi home amps are current controlled, which is why you must get power ratings from manufacturers or testing labs.
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Post by dima333a on May 28, 2013 8:55:17 GMT -5
I would agree with you - if Emotiva hadn't stated that it's 35 in 4 and 8. It's probably micro-processor controlled anyway, so there isn't much point to making assumptions based on the mathematics. You know, by definition of Class A, to have the same output on 4 Ohms, the bias current must be doubled. That will pretty much make a good grill out of the amp and will allow higher Class A rating for 8 Ohm. The official rating is still 35 watt on 8 Ohms. Nothing is mentioned about 4 Ohms. I have rised the point because I am interested ( my speakers are 6 Ohms). |
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Post by Jim on May 28, 2013 21:51:57 GMT -5
Regarding 35 watts at 4 or 8 ohms: I didn't see a reply to it so sorry if I missed it but did we find out if Class A power is any higher at 4 ohm or is it the same regardless of 4 or 8 ohm (class A)? Lonnie replied to my email on this. He said the XPA-1L produces it's first 35 watts in pure class A into a eight or four ohm load. No difference. Given it's Lonnie's design, I'd believe that statement.  |
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cisgo
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Post by cisgo on May 29, 2013 1:15:18 GMT -5
Tweed,
Looking forward to your review. I was thinking the same thing.. buying 2 of these amps and the Lore-S because on paper they look like a decent fit. I am wondering if you could confirm all the great things I have read about the Lore-S. I am still kicking around that one or the Seas Pendragon.
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