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Post by monkumonku on Mar 12, 2013 11:46:58 GMT -5
Let me be clear: I am a big fan of Emotiva, so I don't think they are trying to fool anyone, but I am a vigilant advocate for intellectual honesty. My apologies in advance, as I do not intend to be argumentative but I think I have a valid point. The product description for the XPA-1L indicates that it features "selectable Class A and Class A/B mode switching", but it does nothing of the sort. Instead, it should be described as featuring "selectable bias switching". After all, when "switched" to Class A mode, the XPA-1L does not "transform into pure Class A" amplifier (as described), since by definition, a pure Class A amplifier works in Class A mode up to the full output power of the amplifier. Instead, switching to "Class A mode" on the XPA-1L only adjusts the bias so that it operates in Class A mode for an increased portion of the full output power of this superb Class A/B amplifier.
Perhaps technically you do have a valid point, but practically speaking for Emotiva to use the language you quote would probably wind up getting everyone confused and would result in starting up another thread or multiple threads to discuss exactly what that meant, and customers who weren't on the lounge would be confused as well. I believe in a court of law it would be shown that Emo did not intend to mislead or deceive anyone and that the practicality of their description outweighs the technicality of absolute precision.
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
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Post by hemster on Mar 12, 2013 12:10:03 GMT -5
...I'd LOVE to see someone prove in a double blind test that they could hear the difference between A and A/B peaks. It maybe possible to quantify by measurement but I do think with a well recorded piece of music, the difference could be audibly perceptible in the mid-high frequencies (> 3kHz). Yes, a Coke/Pepsi type test would be interesting.
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Post by Dark Ranger on Mar 12, 2013 12:54:12 GMT -5
One test I intend to do with the 1L is switch between the bias levels and try to determine the audible difference, if any. This should be easy since I'm getting a single 1L for my center channel (although I'll add two more down the road for my mains). I intend to play music through the center speaker only, and then switch back and forth between "low bias" and "high bias" from my listening position. Avoiding placebo effects will probably be more difficult than actually listening critically.
The 1L is one of the most unique amplifier Emotiva has made in my opinion. It has just about the perfect combination of things I desire in an amplifier. In addition, the ability to toggle between "low bias" and "high bias" at will is much appreciated, but even if the 1L had that and was 4RU high, I probably wouldn't buy it. Like many folks here, I've wanted the XPA-1, but I really don't need all that power nor do I care for the 4RU chassis. The fact that Emotiva created so much win in a 2RU chassis won me over. I've never spent this much on an amplifier before, but the 1L appears to be totally worth it. ;D
If my XPA-200 wasn't so darn good, I'd be getting three right now instead of just one. Ah well, more time to save.
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Post by Jim on Mar 12, 2013 14:05:29 GMT -5
...I'd LOVE to see someone prove in a double blind test that they could hear the difference between A and A/B peaks. It maybe possible to quantify by measurement but I do think with a well recorded piece of music, the difference could be audibly perceptible in the mid-high frequencies (> 3kHz). Yes, a Coke/Pepsi type test would be interesting. I say, it would be a fun thing to do on Emofest Techday! Have a double blind demo. But that's just me saying it.. Bunch of nerds talking about which is A and which is A/B. Probably 50% wrong. Or better yet, have a JC1 or some Pass amp in a double blind with a 1L. I bet they'd sell more than a few 1Ls with that demo.
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Post by monkumonku on Mar 12, 2013 14:17:55 GMT -5
It maybe possible to quantify by measurement but I do think with a well recorded piece of music, the difference could be audibly perceptible in the mid-high frequencies (> 3kHz). Yes, a Coke/Pepsi type test would be interesting. I say, it would be a fun thing to do on Emofest Techday! Have a double blind demo. But that's just me saying it.. Bunch of nerds talking about which is A and which is A/B. Probably 50% wrong.Or better yet, have a JC1 or some Pass amp in a double blind with a 1L. I bet they'd sell more than a few 1Ls with that demo. Let's be more optimistic here... not 50% wrong, but 50% right.
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Post by Jim on Mar 12, 2013 14:23:12 GMT -5
Let's be more optimistic here... not 50% wrong, but 50% right. That's funny
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Post by chaosrv on Mar 12, 2013 14:46:08 GMT -5
Reminds me of my favorite engineering joke. The glass is neither half empty no half full but merely twice as large as it needs to be.
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Post by Dark Ranger on Mar 12, 2013 15:35:28 GMT -5
I just got my shipping confirmation and tracking number! ;D 3:27 pm - Picked up - MURFREESBORO, TN No estimated delivery date yet, but that's OK.
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Mar 12, 2013 15:39:18 GMT -5
I just got my shipping confirmation and tracking number! ;D 3:27 pm - Picked up - MURFREESBORO, TN No estimated delivery date yet, but that's OK. So it's here in my town! I'll see if I can catch it and test it thouroughly for you. ;D
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Post by AudioHTIT on Mar 12, 2013 15:42:57 GMT -5
I just got my shipping confirmation and tracking number! ;D 3:27 pm - Picked up - MURFREESBORO, TN No estimated delivery date yet, but that's OK. Congrats DR, one of the first on the block! Hopefully geebo won't keep them too long.
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Post by Dark Ranger on Mar 12, 2013 15:43:38 GMT -5
Thanks geebo! You're so thoughtful. I've taken the security by obscurity approach to avoid theft or vandalism during transit. Thanks to the awesome Emo customer service, my shipment is the one marked as " Caution: Live Rabbits."
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,937
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Post by KeithL on Mar 12, 2013 15:44:47 GMT -5
No matter how we word it, someone is going to be confused The vast majority of folks are apparently confused about amplifier classes already. The fact is that ANY Class A/B amplifier delivers some power in Class A. The only question is whether it is enough to be useful. (All Class A/B amps are biased slightly into Class A to eliminate the crossover notch that is so problematic with Class B designs. The question is whether they are biased far enough into Class A that you can actually listen to them a significant portion of the time in that mode. For most, including our most excellent sounding Class A/B XPA-1, you cannot.) It's simple: In Class A/B mode, the XPA-1L is a Class A/B amp (250/500 watts - VERY conservatively rated). In Class A mode, the XPA-1L really is a 35 watt Class A amp - by any definition you like. [Yes, the XPA-1L In Class A mode, at power levels above 35 watts, the XPA-1L is ALSO "a high bias 250/500 watt Class A/B amp". It's the same amplifier, and all of those statements are entirely truthful. Honestly, people are so in awe of Class A amplifiers that we wanted to make sure they don't miss this feature - or misunderstand what it really means. You can easily pay five or ten times the modest price of the XPA-1L to get a 35 watt Class A monoblock that DOESN'T have a few hundred extra watts of reserves like the XPA-1L. (So, instead of transitioning into Class A/B at 35 watts, it will just clip.) We figured it was better to do it this way. And we wanted to make sure you understood the difference ;D The first ever article in the EmoZine will cover this subject in more detail. It will be available on or before Friday 3/15 here: emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=magazineLet me be clear: I am a big fan of Emotiva, so I don't think they are trying to fool anyone, but I am a vigilant advocate for intellectual honesty. My apologies in advance, as I do not intend to be argumentative but I think I have a valid point. The product description for the XPA-1L indicates that it features "selectable Class A and Class A/B mode switching", but it does nothing of the sort. Instead, it should be described as featuring "selectable bias switching". After all, when "switched" to Class A mode, the XPA-1L does not "transform into pure Class A" amplifier (as described), since by definition, a pure Class A amplifier works in Class A mode up to the full output power of the amplifier. Instead, switching to "Class A mode" on the XPA-1L only adjusts the bias so that it operates in Class A mode for an increased portion of the full output power of this superb Class A/B amplifier.
Perhaps technically you do have a valid point, but practically speaking for Emotiva to use the language you quote would probably wind up getting everyone confused and would result in starting up another thread or multiple threads to discuss exactly what that meant, and customers who weren't on the lounge would be confused as well. I believe in a court of law it would be shown that Emo did not intend to mislead or deceive anyone and that the practicality of their description outweighs the technicality of absolute precision.
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Mar 12, 2013 15:48:35 GMT -5
Thanks geebo! You're so thoughtful. I've taken the security by obscurity approach to avoid theft or vandalism during transit. Thanks to the awesome Emo customer service, my shipment is the one marked as " Caution: Live Rabbits." Aw man! You should have told me. I sent that one to the lucky rabbit's foot factory.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Mar 12, 2013 15:50:58 GMT -5
Thanks geebo! You're so thoughtful. I've taken the 'security by obscurity' approach to avoid theft or vandalism during transit. Thanks to the awesome Emo customer service, my shipment is the one marked as "Caution: Live Rabbits" So there's a chance you might get a bunny ... Attachments:
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Post by newprometheus on Mar 12, 2013 15:52:29 GMT -5
No matter how we word it, someone is going to be confused I suppose you're right. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Cheers!
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cgolf
Emo VIPs
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Post by cgolf on Mar 12, 2013 16:00:26 GMT -5
No matter how we word it, someone is going to be confused The vast majority of folks are apparently confused about amplifier classes already. The fact is that ANY Class A/B amplifier delivers some power in Class A. The only question is whether it is enough to be useful. (All Class A/B amps are biased slightly into Class A to eliminate the crossover notch that is so problematic with Class B designs. The question is whether they are biased far enough into Class A that you can actually listen to them a significant portion of the time in that mode. For most, including our most excellent sounding Class A/B XPA-1, you cannot.) It's simple: In Class A/B mode, the XPA-1L is a Class A/B amp (250/500 watts - VERY conservatively rated). In Class A mode, the XPA-1L really is a 35 watt Class A amp - by any definition you like. [Yes, the XPA-1L In Class A mode, at power levels above 35 watts, the XPA-1L is ALSO "a high bias 250/500 watt Class A/B amp". It's the same amplifier, and all of those statements are entirely truthful. Honestly, people are so in awe of Class A amplifiers that we wanted to make sure they don't miss this feature - or misunderstand what it really means. You can easily pay five or ten times the modest price of the XPA-1L to get a 35 watt Class A monoblock that DOESN'T have a few hundred extra watts of reserves like the XPA-1L. (So, instead of transitioning into Class A/B at 35 watts, it will just clip.) We figured it was better to do it this way. And we wanted to make sure you understood the difference ;D The first ever article in the EmoZine will cover this subject in more detail. It will be available on or before Friday 3/15 here: emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=magazineI'm not the most techno person on here and many understand amps, etc. more than I do but this explanation is quite clear & understandable to me. Makes perfect sense what this amp is and can do, etc. Very clear explanation...... ;D
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Post by milt99 on Mar 12, 2013 16:26:46 GMT -5
I just got my shipping confirmation and tracking number! ;D 3:27 pm - Picked up - MURFREESBORO, TN No estimated delivery date yet, but that's OK. Me 2. Cool BUT I'm on the west coast. Anyone wanna bet that the delivery date is Monday. Not complaining mind you. I guess it's the price I pay for not living in Tennessee. Sorry Geebo. Actually I have an old friend that lives in Knoxville.
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Ref
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Post by Ref on Mar 12, 2013 16:33:21 GMT -5
I wonder how much heat the XPA-1L generates in class A mode, idle and with mild listening. I'm sure its warm, but how warm?
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Post by peterk on Mar 12, 2013 16:39:49 GMT -5
Would love to know how much power these draw from the wall in "normal" usage. I guess would need readings for music, movie played near reference, with the switch in both settings so 4 readings. Anyone got a KillaWatt meter or similar that has one of these amps coming? I would guess - pure guess - that it draws around 120 watts when in Class A mode which to me is quite low. Sure lower would be nicer! Thinking 3 of these would be a nice change from or addition to my XPA-3.
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Mar 12, 2013 16:44:08 GMT -5
;D I just got my shipping confirmation and tracking number! ;D 3:27 pm - Picked up - MURFREESBORO, TN No estimated delivery date yet, but that's OK. Me 2. Cool BUT I'm on the west coast. Anyone wanna bet that the delivery date is Monday. Not complaining mind you. I guess it's the price I pay for not living in Tennessee. Sorry Geebo. Actually I have an old friend that lives in Knoxville. Everything they ship, comes thru MY town first!
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