Garbulky's journey

[GreenKiwi]

I don't know what your space is like, but in college the best computer lab was in the music room and they had all the computers in the next room, with the keyboards and nice and monitors going through the walls. It was just dead silent.

[garbulky]

Nice. Mine is a medium-small living room with high sloped ceilings brick walls, and complete carpet.

[GreenKiwi]

Any chance of building a little box to put the computer inside?

[GreenKiwi]

Or a closet you could put it in?

[garbulky]

I guess I could do that. But luckily for me in my recording situations the mic's backs are to the computer and therefore they pick up nearly no noise. So thankful for that!

[GreenKiwi]

That's cool. It's amazing how well they can work at isolating noise.

Are they xy stereo mics?

[garbulky]

I'm not sure what that is. They are two regular condenser microphones. They use a 3/4 inch gold diaphram positioned on the vertical plane, require phantom power and if I'm not mistake use some sort of class A circuitry.

[GreenKiwi]

Oh, you had mentioned stereo imaging so I wasn't sure if the microphones were xy mics, like this.

www.google.com/url?q=http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microphone_practice%23X-Y_technique:_intensity_stereophony&usg=AFQjCNFuhdEGNHugdXIlvp4A9-PIrROuLw&sa=X&ei=wO19Ufa_NIiEiwKK-ICYAQ&ved=0CDwQygQwAA

But I'm guessing that they are just a single mono feed.

[garbulky]

Oh I think I know what you mean. It's the mics with two diaphragms right? I had the choice to get it but I didn't know what the drawbacks may be (excess noise from the back, matching with my existing mono mic). But THANKS FOR THE LINK! It shows me lots of different positions including a bilumlein method that I would never have thought of!

[GreenKiwi]

Yeah. Though I believe it's often setup as two separate microphones. I think that it's the microphone setup you'd have out in front of a band, while a single mic like you have would be used to mic individual singers.

[garbulky]

Here is a file of me testing the stereo field of the two mics by walking around the living room playing a guitar. My voice is of course rather bad and I wasn't really trying.
First, I tried bilumlein placement where the microphones are placed on top of each other (one upside down) and turned at right angles. The results were a bit strange. The next two are better so far.
Then the next two are with the mics placed next to each other 45-90 degrees apart (like they are slightly toed outward from each other). So it looks like a V pointing outward from the center to the listener. It's a long file but at the very end of the few seconds I waved the guitar above the center of the two mics in a circle and got a somewhat cool sweep effect going around.

[garbulky]

Here's the file: dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42087398/Mic%20test%20blimlein%2045%20deg%20and%2090%20deg%20and%20waving%20guitar%20around.wav

[guitarist8]

Hi garbulky,

This is my first time posting. You started talking about studio recordings, my biggest passion. I just wanted to say you've got some nice mics there. MXL makes some great super affordable gear. I listened to that file you linked and you managed to get a nice balanced sound. I also want to recommend placing one mic pointed right at the 12th fret (about a foot away from the guitar) and the other close to the bridge (also about a foot away). This should give you a really 'large' sounding recording. I actually just recorded a demo of one of my songs using this technique with a MXL ribbon mic and pencil condenser. Feel free to take a listen!

www.dropbox.com/s/tpmk760ioq5wq3t/Midnight%20Game%20Prelim.mp3

[garbulky]

Hi guitarist! I just listened to it. It sounds great! Thank you for sharing. I like how you can hear the bass on the left speaker and the treble at the right and the strumming and voice in the center. There are nice musical buzzes and resonances all across the wide soundstage it casts. You're right that is a huge expansive field for a relatively small instrument. I shall try it!
I also really liked your song. It sounded great and the strumming lended a sense of energy - made me want to get off my butt and do house work!
BTW, my recording analog to digital converter was a lowly $30 Behringer UCA 202. Not too shabby for a $30 device! It also serves as a very nice DAC with a slight treble prominence.

What mxl ribbon mic and pencil condenser did you use?
What are the strengths of a ribbon vs a regular condenser like what I have? What difference is a pencil condenser vs a condenser like mine?

[guitarist8]

Thanks for that feedback garbulky, you have a very good ear if you were able to pick up on the panning. It's great to hear that what I'm doing sounds right to others!

In my experience, I haven't been able to tell any difference between a $30 or a $1000 ADC. I feel that on the production side of music, the skill of the performer and the engineer far outweigh any type of equipment. I wouldn't even hesitate to do a serious recording on your setup. I use my interface as a DAC when I'm just listening to music as well. Pro equipment offers a lot of value.

The MXL Ribbon Mic I used was the R144, it runs about $100. Ribbon mics typically sound a bit darker, which can be desirable on acoustic instruments. They also pick up sound on both sides of the mic so it records some of the natural reverb of the room. The pencil condenser is an MXL 991 which is a super cheap mic. Pencil mics tend to be a bit more neutral (with maybe just a tad bit more high end bite) and have a more narrow pickup pattern than your large diaphragms. The only real 'strength' between the mics is that they sound different. Many people will disagree with the following point, but I feel that as long as the sound going in is good (mics placed correctly on the instrument) you can EQ the sound for a specific flavor. Having different sounding mics helps the engineer get those sounds faster and with a bit less work than having to carefully EQ. You have two nice, neutral sounding, large diaphragm condenser mics; that is the perfect setup to start with!

If you want to experiment with Ribbon mics just be aware that they are terribly inefficient and typically need a higher gain preamp than what is on most USB converters. My Presonus Firepod didn't quite do it, so I had to use a Presonus Studio Channel before the Firepod as a preamp. I have never tried it with Behringer stuff though. Also, never plug in a Ribbon mic to a channel with +48 V phantom power (like you use for condensers) as this will likely fry the mic.

Above all else though, just keep playing and recording!

[garbulky]

Thanks guitarist. The information is very useful. I have longed for and worked towards a stereo recording setup that can make decent recordings since I was 13. After a long long time of incremental purchases my dream appears to be fulfilled. So now I can start on doing what I want which is recording music. I will try to share what I record. My wife has a really good voice and I am pretty good at freestyling piano (and guitar to a significantly lesser extent). So my goal is to do duets.
My microphone pre-amp is an m-audio audio buddy which has a switch that can enable phantom power and run off an external ac adapter. You can see it in one of my previous posts. However some reports mention that it's phantom power is not 48V but significantly lower though it still appears more than adequate for my need.
I've heard differences in DACS but the truth is the behringer $30 is adequate DAC for 90% of the population. It comes embarassingly close to my emotiva xda-1 but the xda-1 is better to my (and my wife's) opinion but not by a tremendous amount - certainly not a 10X difference like the price used to be. However it does take reasonably resolving equipment to tell the difference. My HD600 and axiom m80 towers were able to do so.
Pro-audio gear is undervalued in the audiophile category and carefully chosen gear can sound great. I know pro-audio musicians are more about actual accurate performance than magic and high end parts that may or may not yield performance improvements. They also are less willing to pay for the incredibly large margins for some of the niche audiophile companies. Therefore we are able to get more for less $ in a manner of speaking. Thanks for your comments and do comment on the emotiva forums. You don't need to have emotiva equipment to be welcome

[guitarist8]

I can certainly see why there is so much value in Pro Audio, musicians are always broke! I would love to have an Emotiva setup. I'm hoping that after I buy a house in the next year that I'll be able to start building a HT system.

[garbulky]

That sounds like a great plan. I have their old UPA-2 which was the lowest end emo amp at the time and it is one heck of a deal. In fact every emotiva product I've bought has given me so much value and sheer enjoyment over anything else I've heard. The price they charge for their lowest end products is honestly just insulting to the poor company. Their amps are really that good including their lowest end models. Tremendous power and the UPA-2 drives my 4 ohm speakers which dip much lower with absolutely no sneezing and very very good quality - I'm talking about pin point imaging in the soundstage, powerful dynamics no clipping at max output - that kind of stuff. The AVR's simply can't compete in the kind of clarity and power delivery. Oh and it sounds great out of a good soundcard/cheap DAC as well but can reflect the audio changes easily as you upgrade the other electronics. Really class stuff - so's their CS BTW. Incredibly polite, fast fast, and good.
You won't go wrong. The only thing you will regret and I promise you will is you will allways wonder if their lowest priced stuff can do so much what can their other stuff do. That's why most emo users have several emo amps on them ;D I plan to get either an XPA-1 L for their class A delivery or a hypex ncore 400 class D amp for their amazing sound quality. Of course that's my dream and not gonna happen for a long time as I too am just as broke as you! ;D

[garbulky]

What a day this has been!

I got.....
A PASSIVE PRE-AMP!! With switching inputs!
Can you guess what I'm going to use it for? I'm hoping to use it to bypass the lossy digital volume control and see if there is a difference between the digital volume control and a $2.50 (I assumed by standard prices) potentiometer.

From VERY initial impressions where I used the XDA-1 in DAC mode with the volume turned down via the passive pre, vs with the passive pre-'s volume all the way up and the XDA-1 controlling the volume at around 45 to 50 giving me a volume around 65 db to 70db if I had to guess. I felt there was a difference. Felt there was better channel separation with the passive pre doing the volume control and more airy treble. I felt the treble was coming out easier sort of like ....sigh... a butterfly (I know I know). However I don't have an SPL meter so I didn't level match but tried to get it somewhat close.

The best I can say is that the music is certainly more alive sounding. However this is audio that I'm not familiar with as I have taken out my 12db attenuators which changed the sound signature back to what the DAC puts out.


I encountered an issue with the pre - crackling pops whenever the dynamics get somewhat loud a sudden peak (though it was still soft at the amps - so its the peak from the xda-1 not the peak due to amp clipping). I assume it is the pre-amp's potentiometer having some dust in it. If anybody has any advice on how to clear it I would appreciate it.

However it may not be the pre-amps fault at all. if I adjust the input from the xda-1 below 80 to around 70 this issue goes away and I am able to turn the volume all the way up and get it loud. So that's confusing. Interestingly this is the same thing that the gain control on the back of the UPA-2 did when I used it to turn the gain down with the xda-1 in standalone mode at 80. It audibly clipped at relatively soft volumes like Norah Jones entire Come away with me album whenever she sang. Turning the volume down to 70 and then turning up the passive pre loud as I like didn't yield any of these issues.

Maybe it is <GRRRRRR!> the xda-1 overloading the passive pre. Is that even possible for a passive pre-amp?! If it is, I am going to be rather frustrated at the xda-1. If any of y'all have read my previous posts on RCA 12 db attenuators you can tell that I've been trying to deal with input overload of the xda-1 for some time now. So it's just a little dissapointing if the xda-1 is the culprit. But I don't want to jump to conclusions. The attenuator is a 150K ohm resistor BTW. Maybe that is the issue? Could it be causing the xda-1 to clip due to the resistance? Would changing it to say a 10 k or 50k attenuator help?
Ah looking at parts express turns out there's a maximum wattage potentiometers can take. Around a 1/4 to 1/2 a watt. Hmmm...

Other than that, man the thing is CLEAR with no hiss from listening distance (something i was worried about).

I've heard passive pre-'s suffer due to their inherent design from some lack of bass or dynamic range but I haven't had time to evaluate any of them right now. I haven't noticed anything negative. I still have to get used to the sound without my 12 db attenuators before critical listening.

Anyway KeithL if you have any insight into whether the potentiometers 150K impedance is causing the distortion at 80 volume on the xda-1, please let me know.

[garbulky]

Okay a few updates. No it's not the potentiometer distorting because of age/noise/dust. It tracks very silently no clicks/scratching.

The clipping occurs at 70 and above on loud dynamic sections from the DAC. On sections with good dynamic range (meaning you have to turn the volume up higher to get the same volume) you can turn it up slightly higher.
Update 2: My xenos 3ha headphone amp finally works (almost) by using the passive pre-amp and most importantly the sound signature change of the 12db attenuators is not there. I was listening to cimorelli's live performance of million bucks. It is plagued by bad microphones, recording acoustics etc and it's very very easy for the voices to sound awful and very thin. A great test for how well the sound can come through equipment. I noticed a few new harmonies that I don't remember at all from it and most importantly, it didn't sound awful! Clear separation of the voices. Try it for yourself to see how your system can do with a poorly recorded track with lots of detail hidden behind it.


The clipping noises came through on the headphone amp when the volume was turned past 70 on the xda-1. But having the volume below 70 and turning the passive pre-amp all the way up allowed much louder cleaner volumes which leads me to think it's too much power from the xda-1 overloading the potentiometer of the passive pre-amp when it goes past a certain output power level. Does an XDA-1 put out more than 1/4 watt or 1/2 watt of power? Anybody know?

Using 12 db attenuators didn't help the clipping situation BTW. So that's more confusing to me.