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Post by copperband on Oct 29, 2012 13:46:59 GMT -5
I am in the final week of testing the new sub Jamo 650 and I start to wonder if the unit could be defective as I don't get that extra punch I am expecting. I tried turning the volume at max and the output seems still low when compare to my old ported sub. I do understand ported sub produces higher output/volume/punch than sealed sub, but 650 watts vs 300 watts(not in RMS) I thought should still generate a noticeable difference.... My final test: is there a way to check if a sub is defective? If so how? I have a few more days to return it for either refund or a replacement. Thanks. today I called both Vanns and the manufacturer(Klipsch) I can return it to Klipsch and they can send me a new one, but the tech said most likely my unit is a good one if I don't hear distortion of any kind as he strongly think that the 650 is a sealed sub and that's why it produces less output despite double the power of the 300. Afterall sealed sub is really for music listening..... At this point, after you've already done so much experimentation and testing, I'd recommend that you call the dealer you bought it from and ask them. At the very least you're then 'on record' (within the warranty period I mean), as reporting a suspected a problem. But hopefully the dealer can solve the problem for you - good luck!
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selkec
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SCREW YOU GUYS, IM GOING HOME!!!
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Post by selkec on Oct 29, 2012 16:24:56 GMT -5
why dont you get an spl meter and see if its really putting out less than the 10"..... If its located in the same spot I dont see how you could be getting less
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Post by ansat on Oct 29, 2012 17:07:26 GMT -5
2 x the power would only be a 3 db increase. If you were running a ported sub before. Then likely your output would be greater with the reduced wattage.
sent from my phone. sorry for the short response. Tony
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Post by copperband on Oct 29, 2012 20:10:41 GMT -5
Maybe put it in a smaller room of the house that has no openings with the door(s) closed and play some bass heavy stuff, if you are not then getting pounded, return it. Thanks for the idea and it works! I move the sub to my small room and connect to my old receiver which does not have bass management but a sub output. Listen to a familiar song and the punch and output is there when I turn up the volume...so my unit is most likely not defective. Now the question really goes back to location and crossover point? In my big room I put the sub next to my front, I hear most of the bass/low tones are from my front instead of the sub when I put my ear close to where the sub & front are. This is also true when I listen to 2 channels using USP-1 at 50hz & 80hz crossover for both low & high pass. I will try to place the sub away from the fronts, probably side and next to my seating area....to see how it goes, but I am afraid localization will result when I put it close to my seating area.... Any other thoughts? Thanks.
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 29, 2012 22:20:45 GMT -5
Maybe put it in a smaller room of the house that has no openings with the door(s) closed and play some bass heavy stuff, if you are not then getting pounded, return it. Thanks for the idea and it works! I move the sub to my small room and connect to my old receiver which does not have bass management but a sub output. Listen to a familiar song and the punch and output is there when I turn up the volume...so my unit is most likely not defective. Now the question really goes back to location and crossover point? In my big room I put the sub next to my front, I hear most of the bass/low tones are from my front instead of the sub when I put my ear close to where the sub & front are. This is also true when I listen to 2 channels using USP-1 at 50hz & 80hz crossover for both low & high pass. I will try to place the sub away from the fronts, probably side and next to my seating area....to see how it goes, but I am afraid localization will result when I put it close to my seating area.... Any other thoughts? Thanks. Yes, maybe you need something like a Velodyne SMS-1 parametric equalizer. There just happens to be one that was posted for sale only minutes ago in the emporium.
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Post by paintedklown on Oct 29, 2012 22:46:19 GMT -5
I just watched that video of the sub moving across the floor. While it's cool/fun to watch, i would think the subs performance would be greatly enhanced by having it installed in a way that does not allow any movement of the enclosure as operates. I hope you get all of your issues worked out, that looks to be a really nice sub.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Oct 30, 2012 5:28:46 GMT -5
Maybe put it in a smaller room of the house that has no openings with the door(s) closed and play some bass heavy stuff, if you are not then getting pounded, return it. Thanks for the idea and it works! I move the sub to my small room and connect to my old receiver which does not have bass management but a sub output. Listen to a familiar song and the punch and output is there when I turn up the volume...so my unit is most likely not defective. Now the question really goes back to location and crossover point? In my big room I put the sub next to my front, I hear most of the bass/low tones are from my front instead of the sub when I put my ear close to where the sub & front are. This is also true when I listen to 2 channels using USP-1 at 50hz & 80hz crossover for both low & high pass. I will try to place the sub away from the fronts, probably side and next to my seating area....to see how it goes, but I am afraid localization will result when I put it close to my seating area.... Any other thoughts? Thanks. If you keep the XO at 80Hz or lower you should not get too noticeable localisation. As has been mentioned before, it is either a room/location issue apparently and if you have not done the sub crawl it might be a good idea. Put the sub at your listening position playing some bass heavy stuff or a test tone at a reasonable level (with the speakers off) and then go around the room and see where it sounds cleanest/loudest, then put your sub in that location. If it's not a good location aesthetically or practically then look for the next best one that is. After that you are into room treatment/EQ/multiple subs in different locations.
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selkec
Emo VIPs
SCREW YOU GUYS, IM GOING HOME!!!
Posts: 3,779
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Post by selkec on Oct 30, 2012 6:16:32 GMT -5
Maybe put it in a smaller room of the house that has no openings with the door(s) closed and play some bass heavy stuff, if you are not then getting pounded, return it. Thanks for the idea and it works! I move the sub to my small room and connect to my old receiver which does not have bass management but a sub output. Listen to a familiar song and the punch and output is there when I turn up the volume...so my unit is most likely not defective. Now the question really goes back to location and crossover point? In my big room I put the sub next to my front, I hear most of the bass/low tones are from my front instead of the sub when I put my ear close to where the sub & front are. This is also true when I listen to 2 channels using USP-1 at 50hz & 80hz crossover for both low & high pass. I will try to place the sub away from the fronts, probably side and next to my seating area....to see how it goes, but I am afraid localization will result when I put it close to my seating area.... Any other thoughts? Thanks. 50 and 80hz xover points? How many hundreds of times have I read on this forum to use higher than that. like 120hz? Yet no one has told him to raise his xover? why the inconsistencies fellas?
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Oct 30, 2012 6:23:21 GMT -5
120Hz for the SUB XO so that LFE is not lost - this is different to the speaker XO and it's generally considered that localisation goes away around 80Hz and below. Unless the speakers are really small, going higher would potentially mean localisation unless, like me you have symmetrically positioned subs front and rear, left and right or similar. His LCR should be able to play down to 80Hz no problem, but the surrounds likely need an XO at ~120HZ or higher based on the specs at the Aperion site (FR: +/- 3dB) 110-15,000 Hz). So it may well be advantageous to have the sub at the back of the room so localised surround bass comes from the rear.
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Post by copperband on Oct 30, 2012 11:23:29 GMT -5
Thanks for the idea and it works! I move the sub to my small room and connect to my old receiver which does not have bass management but a sub output. Listen to a familiar song and the punch and output is there when I turn up the volume...so my unit is most likely not defective. Now the question really goes back to location and crossover point? In my big room I put the sub next to my front, I hear most of the bass/low tones are from my front instead of the sub when I put my ear close to where the sub & front are. This is also true when I listen to 2 channels using USP-1 at 50hz & 80hz crossover for both low & high pass. I will try to place the sub away from the fronts, probably side and next to my seating area....to see how it goes, but I am afraid localization will result when I put it close to my seating area.... Any other thoughts? Thanks. If you keep the XO at 80Hz or lower you should not get too noticeable localisation. As has been mentioned before, it is either a room/location issue apparently and if you have not done the sub crawl it might be a good idea. Put the sub at your listening position playing some bass heavy stuff or a test tone at a reasonable level (with the speakers off) and then go around the room and see where it sounds cleanest/loudest, then put your sub in that location. If it's not a good location aesthetically or practically then look for the next best one that is. After that you are into room treatment/EQ/multiple subs in different locations. well sorry if I was not clear. I meant I tried to set at 50hz for both low & high pass of USP-1, and I also tried to set at 80hz for both low & high pass of USP-1. Both times I still hear most of the bass coming from my fronts when the sub is placed next to the fronts. I tried the crawl test but I did not really put my ears on the floor to crawl....looks like I need to do it. So are you saying: -for 2 channels with USP-1, I should use 80hz or lower to avoid localisation when I put the sub close to my seating area, assuming I find a good place to put the sub close to seating area? -for movies with UMC-1 I should use 120hz for sub xover, 80hz for the fronts & center, 120hz for the surround? -When doing the crawl test, how do I turn off the speakers? Right now EmoQ uses 40hz for fronts, 90hz for center, and 100hz for surround, 80hz for sub. I do want to use both my new & old sub together when watching movies, but my main focus now is to set the new sub at the right place & right level. Thanks again.
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Post by ansat on Oct 30, 2012 12:15:32 GMT -5
I would like to point out something that was pointed out to me by Dr. Boz about localization. Until my conversation with him I was a firm believer that you could localize below the 80hz range and my subjective tests told me that this was true. Boz informed my that this was not the case and that I was localizing the harmonics which were much higher then the frequency that was actually playing.
This lead me to do some internet research. Of course I started with wikipedia for a proof of concept.
Found this statement "localization also comes from port noise and from typically large amounts of harmonic distortion in the subwoofer design".
That was enough to move forward to find a better source to confirm this. I found a article that stated "In a properly bass managed system these transients and harmonics localize where they are supposed to at or between the main channels. (see section 3 to learn the threshold frequency of localization) If you localize the subwoofer in your system, it may be because the crossover frequency is too high or the slope of the crossover is not steep enough, or the subwoofer is producing distortion or "chuffing" noises at frequencies high enough by which you localize it."
Ok, Ill bite. I started playing with my system and tested a few subs I had laying around in the house to discover some subs were more localizable then others. This was especially true with a pair of car subs that I tested. So I started playing some test music again this time with the eD subs back into place to discover I was localizing from the front of the room but not to the left or right of the screen. Just a difference from the front and back. This makes sense if you have two subs that are time aligned playing the same thing the harmonics will be produced in the center between the two.
This is where it is really important to have matched subs and changed my outlook of localization.
In a nutshell -- you are going to be able to localize the harmonics of the sub. Some are better then others but I have not seen one that is perfect. Having two subs will help in having you localize those harmonics in multiple places making it harder to pinpoint. Having 4 subs will be almost imposible to localize the harmonics if the subs surround the listener. This only works with matched subs.
Something to think about if you are able to pinpoint your sub.
As for using mismatched subs -- You are going to have to live with some localization when using one sub or 2 mismatched subs.
For 2 channel listening (which I do not have alot of experience with) My tests would suggest having the Mains left at 40hz and crossing your sub over at 120. Any harmonics that would come from that setup would mostly be from your mains and would center them in the room between the two speakers. the harmonics produced below the 40hz would come from the sub location But the sub will hardly play at that xover.
For movie watching some will suggest to get the crossovers closer together. I am not a fan of this cause my fronts are built better then my sub is and seem to produce less harmonics along with a better sound.
Tony.
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geebo
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Post by geebo on Oct 30, 2012 12:25:06 GMT -5
I would like to point out something that was pointed out to me by Dr. Boz about localization. Until my conversation with him I was a firm believer that you could localize below the 80hz range and my subjective tests told me that this was true. Boz informed my that this was not the case and that I was localizing the harmonics which were much higher then the frequency that was actually playing. This lead me to do some internet research. Of course I started with wikipedia for a proof of concept. Found this statement "localization also comes from port noise and from typically large amounts of harmonic distortion in the subwoofer design". That was enough to move forward to find a better source to confirm this. I found a article that stated "In a properly bass managed system these transients and harmonics localize where they are supposed to at or between the main channels. (see section 3 to learn the threshold frequency of localization) If you localize the subwoofer in your system, it may be because the crossover frequency is too high or the slope of the crossover is not steep enough, or the subwoofer is producing distortion or "chuffing" noises at frequencies high enough by which you localize it." Ok, Ill bite. I started playing with my system and tested a few subs I had laying around in the house to discover some subs were more localizable then others. This was especially true with a pair of car subs that I tested. So I started playing some test music again this time with the eD subs back into place to discover I was localizing from the front of the room but not to the left or right of the screen. Just a difference from the front and back. This makes sense if you have two subs that are time aligned playing the same thing the harmonics will be produced in the center between the two. This is where it is really important to have matched subs and changed my outlook of localization. In a nutshell -- you are going to be able to localize the harmonics of the sub. Some are better then others but I have not seen one that is perfect. Having two subs will help in having you localize those harmonics in multiple places making it harder to pinpoint. Having 4 subs will be almost imposible to localize the harmonics if the subs surround the listener. This only works with matched subs. Something to think about if you are able to pinpoint your sub. As for using mismatched subs -- You are going to have to live with some localization when using one sub or 2 mismatched subs. For 2 channel listening (which I do not have alot of experience with) My tests would suggest having the Mains left at 40hz and crossing your sub over at 120. Any harmonics that would come from that setup would mostly be from your mains and would center them in the room between the two speakers. the harmonics produced below the 40hz would come from the sub location But the sub will hardly play at that xover. For movie watching some will suggest to get the crossovers closer together. I am not a fan of this cause my fronts are built better then my sub is and seem to produce less harmonics along with a better sound. Tony. I remember Dr. Boz explaining that as well. All subs will create their own harmonics. That's why some are better than others. Well damped units are harder to localize.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Oct 30, 2012 12:40:10 GMT -5
Agreed on the above 2 posts - back to the OP: If you have the XO at 40Hz for L+R you are very likely to not hear the sub if mid-bass ranges are playing and the sub is next to the mains. Lets try to get the UMC-1 working right with the sub/speakers before we confuse the issue with the USP - if the USP is connected, maybe it would be good to disconnect it until the UMC-1 is working as intended? I would suggest the following UMC-1 settings for initial testing: 1. EmoQ EQ disabled. 2. All slopes at 24Hz 3. Sub XO at max (e.g. 250Hz) 4 all XOs except surrounds at 80Hz and the surrounds at 120Hz. 5. Sub - where it was, somewhere between the mains, somewhere behind the listening position and see what seems to work best. 6. Post results. 7. Discuss.
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Post by jackfish on Oct 30, 2012 13:22:37 GMT -5
Beyond harmonics of the pure bass tone, there are aural cues in program material which may make one perceive directional bass. The slap of the kick drum or the string on a bass, or in movies explosions which are a complex of frequencies. So, don't worry too much if you have good equipment and you think some bass sounds directional. The bass isn't, but the aural cues make you perceive that it is.
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Post by Nemesis.ie on Oct 30, 2012 13:33:26 GMT -5
Well put JF!
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Post by ansat on Oct 30, 2012 13:38:50 GMT -5
Welcome to one very complicated hobby. ;D
sent from my phone. sorry for the short response. Tony
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Post by copperband on Oct 30, 2012 13:48:26 GMT -5
When doing the crawl test, how do I turn off the speakers?
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Post by ansat on Oct 30, 2012 13:52:06 GMT -5
Dosconnect them. Or if you are running a emotiva amp then power it down.
sent from my phone. sorry for the short response. Tony
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Post by ansat on Oct 30, 2012 13:56:57 GMT -5
Ok, Now that I can see your signature -- Just hit the power button on the xpa -5
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Post by copperband on Oct 30, 2012 18:01:03 GMT -5
I just found out from UMC menu that I can connect a cd player directly to the low level inputs of the sub, play a source and walk around to find the best location of the sub....will probably try this too besides the crawl test. I forgot to mention I use my sacd player to do most of the testing of the new sub, and I connect it by the 5.1 analog to UMC-1. Questions: -does that mean I use the player's DAC? -No processing from UMC-1 at all other than providing the volume? No EmoQ? -my player has the setting for speaker size, distance, level and I did make use of that since the instructions say to do that when using the 5.1 analog connection. Now I suspect the player's setting will affect the sub's output? The setting is very simple and I wonder if I did anything wrong there. Here is the instructions: www.manualowl.com/m/Marantz/DV9600/Manual/223192Take a look at page 40 & 41
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