DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 7, 2013 10:16:57 GMT -5
Could be, but the designer of the ODAC (NwAvGuy) sure has been making alot of bold statements re objective versus subjective. According to him, his goal was to design a DAC that could compete against the Benchmark DAC-1; however, the sound of the Benchmark DAC-1 leaves me literally stone cold.  I agree, the DAC1 was harsh and lasted less than a week in my house. The ODAC sounds (to my ears) much better than the Benchmark did. For $150 it's worth trying if you need a USB-only DAC. IMO it sounds like the AudioQuest Dragonfly for much less. |
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Post by yves on Feb 7, 2013 14:34:31 GMT -5
Could be, but the designer of the ODAC (NwAvGuy) sure has been making alot of bold statements re objective versus subjective. According to him, his goal was to design a DAC that could compete against the Benchmark DAC-1; however, the sound of the Benchmark DAC-1 leaves me literally stone cold. I agree, the DAC1 was harsh and lasted less than a week in my house. The ODAC sounds (to my ears) much better than the Benchmark did. For $150 it's worth trying if you need a USB-only DAC. IMO it sounds like the AudioQuest Dragonfly for much less. Fair enough, but the DAC that I own comes with a built-in M2Tech OEM asynchronous USB 2.0 interface and, IIRC, uses a total of 5 (five) dedicated power supplies. The USB implementation alone is probably worth more than $150 (and IMO it matters...). ;D |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 10, 2013 11:13:08 GMT -5
You should check your software settings and make sure that it's not set to re-sample anywhere, and avoid using the software volume controls anywhere in Windows (that includes both the player and Windows itself). It's also possible that you're hearing the UMC-1 itself. The UMC-1 sounds very good for a pre/pro, but going through a separate DAC (like an XDA) and into the Analog Direct inputs does sound noticeably better. Yves, I have Realtek HD Audio with a coax output set for 24/192 output to my UMC-1, which indicates that is what it is receiving. It sounds pretty good, especially in the bass, but a bit tinty/harsh on the high end. Is there something else I should be doing to maximize the SQ? |
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Post by KeithL on Feb 10, 2013 11:45:50 GMT -5
I agree entirely. I really like NwAvGuy's philosophy, and I think he's on the right track, but maybe with DACs we haven't quite reached the point where we know everything that needs measuring and how to measure it. (For one thing, the digital filter in a DAC does change the envelope shape and spectral content of transients - and you can easily enough measure it with the right equipment - yet they aren't all the same. Clearly there is no solid consensus about what "correct" is there yet, nor about what is "generally audible".) I also agree with you about the 0Dac; it isn't bad, but it isn't all that great either; I'd give it a solid "good". As you say, it sounds a lot like the Dragonfly (which I would classify as "innocuous and not at all bad") and, being cheaper, is certainly a better deal. They both use the current lower end Sabre chip, and sound similar, but I hesitate to classify that as "Sabre sound" because I've heard DACs with Sabre's in them that sound quite different (and quite good). I stick with my basic claim (that a lot more matters to the way a design sounds than the DAC chip itself), but it's quite possible that NwAvGuy uses the "by the book" circuitry from Sabre's app notes, and the Dragonfly does also  , and maybe that is enough to define "a sound character". The Benchmark was the second "serious" DAC I ever bought, and was a major step up from its predecessor, but I agree with you there too; to me the Benchmark managed to sound slightly harsh, but slightly "dull" at the same time. Even though I don't doubt that it meets spec and is dead flat, it sounded less airy than it should have (but I didn't notice this until I compared it to something better almost ten years later - so times do change). [So the 0Dac DOES compete at that level  ; I might well pick it over the Benchmark. I haven't heard a NEW Benchmark model either. They claim to have made significant improvements; but they also claimed that there was nothing worth improving with the old one; methinks they marketed themselves into a bit of a corner there  ] Could be, but the designer of the ODAC (NwAvGuy) sure has been making alot of bold statements re objective versus subjective. According to him, his goal was to design a DAC that could compete against the Benchmark DAC-1; however, the sound of the Benchmark DAC-1 leaves me literally stone cold. I agree, the DAC1 was harsh and lasted less than a week in my house. The ODAC sounds (to my ears) much better than the Benchmark did. For $150 it's worth trying if you need a USB-only DAC. IMO it sounds like the AudioQuest Dragonfly for much less. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 10, 2013 11:54:53 GMT -5
I agree, the DAC1 was harsh and lasted less than a week in my house. The ODAC sounds (to my ears) much better than the Benchmark did. For $150 it's worth trying if you need a USB-only DAC. IMO it sounds like the AudioQuest Dragonfly for much less. Fair enough, but the DAC that I own comes with a built-in M2Tech OEM asynchronous USB 2.0 interface and, IIRC, uses a total of 5 (five) dedicated power supplies. The USB implementation alone is probably worth more than $150 (and IMO it matters...). ;D Yes, I have a couple of higher end DACs as well, but that's not what we're discussing is it? If so I will say I have compared the little ODAC to my Ayre QB9, and it compares favorably enough that I am considering selling the very overpriced Ayre.  |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 10, 2013 12:00:33 GMT -5
I agree entirely. I really like NwAvGuy's philosophy, and I think he's on the right track, but maybe with DACs we haven't quite reached the point where we know everything that needs measuring and how to measure it. (For one thing, the digital filter in a DAC does change the envelope shape and spectral content of transients - and you can easily enough measure it with the right equipment - yet they aren't all the same. Clearly there is no solid consensus about what "correct" is there yet, nor about what is "generally audible".) I also agree with you about the 0Dac; it isn't bad, but it isn't all that great either; I'd give it a solid "good". As you say, it sounds a lot like the Dragonfly (which I would classify as "innocuous and not at all bad") and, being cheaper, is certainly a better deal. They both use the current lower end Sabre chip, and sound similar, but I hesitate to classify that as "Sabre sound" because I've heard DACs with Sabre's in them that sound quite different (and quite good). I stick with my basic claim (that a lot more matters to the way a design sounds than the DAC chip itself), but it's quite possible that NwAvGuy uses the "by the book" circuitry from Sabre's app notes, and the Dragonfly does also , and maybe that is enough to define "a sound character". The Benchmark was the second "serious" DAC I ever bought, and was a major step up from its predecessor, but I agree with you there too; to me the Benchmark managed to sound slightly harsh, but slightly "dull" at the same time. Even though I don't doubt that it meets spec and is dead flat, it sounded less airy than it should have (but I didn't notice this until I compared it to something better almost ten years later - so times do change). [So the 0Dac DOES compete at that level ; I might well pick it over the Benchmark. I haven't heard a NEW Benchmark model either. They claim to have made significant improvements; but they also claimed that there was nothing worth improving with the old one; methinks they marketed themselves into a bit of a corner there ] That's states my impression of the Benchmark perfectly. And also, I am sorry to say, of the Emotiva XDA-1. I was very disappointed with the first Emotiva DAC, but it did sound a lot like the Benchmark. I'm more and more impressed with the little ODAC all the time. I currently have it in use instead of an Ayre QB9 and to my old ears it sounds just as good. I will now place it above the Dragonfly by a large margin as in my previous comparisons between the QB9 and the Dragonfly I thought the Ayre blew it away. I don't know how it measures yet but I will get some readings after I get back from this week's business trips. Thanks for chiming in! |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 10, 2013 12:27:28 GMT -5
That is most interesting.... I would have said the opposite about the XDA-1. To me, it had a lot more "air" than the Benchmark, and the sound stage seemed to be quite a bit wider (I can't say which was "correct" in that context). [Note I am comparing it to an "original" DAC1, about ten years old, so they may have changed over the years.] I listened to the Dragonfly quite a bit, with a few friends, and we concluded that a good description of how it sounds would be: "it isn't likely to offend anyone" . It was nice and smooth, but sounded too "laid back". It would be a clear step up over a computer sound card, so will probably please most people in its intended target audience. [I'll admit that I can't quantify this, but I know several DACs which are presumed to have flat frequency response, but still "sound" as if there's plenty of detail, but the high end sounds rolled off.] I will admit that I didn't listen to the 0Dac very long, but, from the time I did, I'm not sure if I could tell them (it and the DF) apart. It gave me the same "it's all there, but behind a dark glass" feeling - sort of like listening through dark sunglasses. (If you know me, you know I hate resorting to subjective descriptions like that - but it fits.) [Incidentally, the 0Dac I have is the little black version from Epiphany Acoustics.] The one actual fault I noticed with the Dragonfly was that it didn't seem to have good power isolation.
My guess is that what we're hearing is differences in the digital filters and such, and that all the DACs we're talking about will measure quite well. By spec, the low-end Sabre used by both the DF and the 0Dac has a slightly inferior S/N ratio, but it's still way below anything that should be audible.
I agree entirely. I really like NwAvGuy's philosophy, and I think he's on the right track, but maybe with DACs we haven't quite reached the point where we know everything that needs measuring and how to measure it. (For one thing, the digital filter in a DAC does change the envelope shape and spectral content of transients - and you can easily enough measure it with the right equipment - yet they aren't all the same. Clearly there is no solid consensus about what "correct" is there yet, nor about what is "generally audible".) I also agree with you about the 0Dac; it isn't bad, but it isn't all that great either; I'd give it a solid "good". As you say, it sounds a lot like the Dragonfly (which I would classify as "innocuous and not at all bad") and, being cheaper, is certainly a better deal. They both use the current lower end Sabre chip, and sound similar, but I hesitate to classify that as "Sabre sound" because I've heard DACs with Sabre's in them that sound quite different (and quite good). I stick with my basic claim (that a lot more matters to the way a design sounds than the DAC chip itself), but it's quite possible that NwAvGuy uses the "by the book" circuitry from Sabre's app notes, and the Dragonfly does also , and maybe that is enough to define "a sound character". The Benchmark was the second "serious" DAC I ever bought, and was a major step up from its predecessor, but I agree with you there too; to me the Benchmark managed to sound slightly harsh, but slightly "dull" at the same time. Even though I don't doubt that it meets spec and is dead flat, it sounded less airy than it should have (but I didn't notice this until I compared it to something better almost ten years later - so times do change). [So the 0Dac DOES compete at that level ; I might well pick it over the Benchmark. I haven't heard a NEW Benchmark model either. They claim to have made significant improvements; but they also claimed that there was nothing worth improving with the old one; methinks they marketed themselves into a bit of a corner there ] That's states my impression of the Benchmark perfectly. And also, I am sorry to say, of the Emotiva XDA-1. I was very disappointed with the first Emotiva DAC, but it did sound a lot like the Benchmark. I'm more and more impressed with the little ODAC all the time. I currently have it in use instead of an Ayre QB9 and to my old ears it sounds just as good. I will now place it above the Dragonfly by a large margin as in my previous comparisons between the QB9 and the Dragonfly I thought the Ayre blew it away. I don't know how it measures yet but I will get some readings after I get back from this week's business trips. Thanks for chiming in! |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 10, 2013 12:43:30 GMT -5
The ODAC noise floor is much lower than the DF's. (mine is the latest iteration from John Seaber.) Noise seems to be one place a self-powered DAC shines where a USB-powered device cannot. Or at least not yet. You know, it is possible I didn't give the XDA-1 enough of a trial, or it's simply the old "system synergy" thing and what I heard was an anomaly of my system in my room to my ears. The output measured ruler flat with very low THD+n so it wasn't a FR issue, more like the dynamics were not there. It sounded lifeless, for lack of a better word. I use a Ponoplug that's been converted to run Squeezelite and fed from my Vortexbox music server. The Ponoplug is a 5-output USB power supply designed to power hard drives, so it is much better than what's normally found on a PC motherboard for USB. The 5VDC is rock solid with no discernible ripple, so it's a pretty neutral noise source for comparing USB DACs. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 10, 2013 13:13:54 GMT -5
Actually, there is one other thing you should check out...... The USB data signal itself is differential, but you still have to tie the ground of the computer to the ground of the DAC (you can't just float things entirely). Having a good clean power supply is good, and it sometimes helps, but sometimes noise comes in through the ground. (The grounds on computers are notoriously noisy - because of all the high frequency current that they dump through their ground connection. The result is that, when you connect the computer's ground to the ground on your stereo, that noise ends up either as a difference between the grounds - which gets added to the signal going between them, or it actually modulates the ground on your other equipment - which causes an increase in noise floor elsewhere.) DACs with their own power source tend to be better in this regard, but some of them still have problems with it. The answer is simply to totally isolate the USB connection (this means data isolation AND totally isolated power - INCLUDING THE GROUND). Fortunately, this isn't nearly as big a deal as it sounds. There are a bunch of "USB galvanic isolators" out there. (I use one by www.electronics-shop.dk that costs about $40, but ther are plenty of others; most of them use the Analog Devices ADUM series isolator and matching power supply chip.) Be SURE and get one that supports "Full Speed USB 12 mbps". These actually have a tiny isolated switching power supply for the USB circuitry. Unlike filtered hubs, and fancy power supplies, BOTH the data and the power - including the ground - are isolated completely. I would expect the downside of these to be increased jitter - but, as long as your DAC doesn't care about that, who cares. I have seen huge improvements in the noise floor with several USB-powered DACs with this gadget, and I consider it sort of a "must have in the tool box". (I never tried it with the Dragonfly - and my DF is out on "semi-permanent loan" now.  I don't recall my 0Dac having any problem in this regard, but the last time I listened to it was a while ago.) |
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Post by yves on Feb 10, 2013 13:17:22 GMT -5
Fair enough, but the DAC that I own comes with a built-in M2Tech OEM asynchronous USB 2.0 interface and, IIRC, uses a total of 5 (five) dedicated power supplies. The USB implementation alone is probably worth more than $150 (and IMO it matters...). ;D Yes, I have a couple of higher end DACs as well, but that's not what we're discussing is it? If so I will say I have compared the little ODAC to my Ayre QB9, and it compares favorably enough that I am considering selling the very overpriced Ayre. Price-wise, the DAC that I am talking about is probably halfway in between "entry-level" and "high end". |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2013 22:38:42 GMT -5
Computer or Windows Problem?
I purchased an Asus netbook mostly for streaming music from sites such as Pandora, Mog, Spotify, etc. I have it connected to my Sherwood R-972 via HDMI. From the Sherwood the TV is connected via HDMI. But no matter which streaming service I am using after about 12 minutes the TV screen goes out, and the sound through the Sherwood stops, and the sound only plays through the netbooks own speakers which it will continue to do until you stop it. To resume sound and video through the AVR and TV you simply have to touch a key, or touch pad on the netbook. It resumes for another 12 minutes through the system and then you have to touch the netbook again to resume. Then after 12 minutes it's the same all over again. BTW, the screen saver on the netbook (Windows 7) is set to never sleep, and therefore it never does.
As an experiment a friend of mine brought over their Asus tablet that we hooked up via HDMI into the same HDMI "in" on the Sherwood that the netbook was plugged into. No problem. The music and TV display continued until we finally switched it off. We tried several different HDMI "ins" on the Sherwood just to be sure. Again, no problem with sound and video cutting off.
I can't find much about this problem online except as it pertains to Apple OS. A couple of people online seemed to think this was a Windows thing in that windows was not that good at handling streaming music. I don't know it they are correct, or if it is a problem with Windows using HDMI, or what? I don't have an external DAC that I can experiment via USB so I don't know if that would make any difference. All I know is that the Asus Tablet (Android of course) had no hiccups, or time outs on sound and video. Any ideas anyone on what this problem could be?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 27, 2013 1:50:23 GMT -5
It kinda sounds like your Windows screen saver is coming on - even if it shouldn't be ..... or it's doing some other sort of "power saving" behavior. Disable any stuff like "dim monitor after xx minutes" and "shut down hard drive after xx minutes". (You'll find all sorts of options like that under "power options" or some such.) If that fixes it, then you can try turning a few of them back on and figure out which ones are the actual culprit. Computer or Windows Problem? I purchased an Asus netbook mostly for streaming music from sites such as Pandora, Mog, Spotify, etc. I have it connected to my Sherwood R-972 via HDMI. From the Sherwood the TV is connected via HDMI. But no matter which streaming service I am using after about 12 minutes the TV screen goes out, and the sound through the Sherwood stops, and the sound only plays through the netbooks own speakers which it will continue to do until you stop it. To resume sound and video through the AVR and TV you simply have to touch a key, or touch pad on the netbook. It resumes for another 12 minutes through the system and then you have to touch the netbook again to resume. Then after 12 minutes it's the same all over again. BTW, the screen saver on the netbook (Windows 7) is set to never sleep, and therefore it never does. As an experiment a friend of mine brought over their Asus tablet that we hooked up via HDMI into the same HDMI "in" on the Sherwood that the netbook was plugged into. No problem. The music and TV display continued until we finally switched it off. We tried several different HDMI "ins" on the Sherwood just to be sure. Again, no problem with sound and video cutting off. I can't find much about this problem online except as it pertains to Apple OS. A couple of people online seemed to think this was a Windows thing in that windows was not that good at handling streaming music. I don't know it they are correct, or if it is a problem with Windows using HDMI, or what? I don't have an external DAC that I can experiment via USB so I don't know if that would make any difference. All I know is that the Asus Tablet (Android of course) had no hiccups, or time outs on sound and video. Any ideas anyone on what this problem could be? |
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Post by GreenKiwi on Feb 27, 2013 2:11:50 GMT -5
Yeah, I'd guess "power saving" is kicking in.
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Post by yves on Feb 27, 2013 5:12:11 GMT -5
A couple of people online seemed to think this was a Windows thing in that windows was not that good at handling streaming music. I don't know it they are correct, or if it is a problem with Windows using HDMI, or what? The more plausible explanation IMO would be Apple fanboys are not that good at handling computers. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 27, 2013 8:08:53 GMT -5
Not all Apple "fanboys" are hacks. The local President of the Baton Rouge Macintosh User Group (BRMUG) is also the supercomputing professor at LSU and has students who compete in international programming challenges and score well consistently.
I'm an Apple user, but since it's just business for me, I wouldn't consider myself a fanboy.
Prior to Apple, I was President of the local Windows club and ran a weekly talk radio show about computers where we fielded any and all call-in questions live.
Oh never mind - I just noticed the wink smiley...
Cheers - Boomzilla
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2013 11:19:20 GMT -5
Well, I finally figured out the problem. Originally, I was trying to change the power settings, screen saver settings, etc., in the usual places in the Control Panel. But, nothing I tried helped to keep the sound/screen from turning off after approx. 12 minutes through my HT system. It appears that Windows 7 in this Asus Netbook is slightly more advanced than the Windows 7 OS that is in my 2 year old Toshiba laptop. In the netbook's Control Panel>Power Settings, you have 3 choices for your power management plan. I did not realize that within each of the 3 plans there is a sub menu that allows for additional screen saver, sleep, display options. Also, each of the 3 power plans are independent in that the setting that you change in 1 setting does not apply to the other 2. Anyway, there in was the problem! It netbook was set to time out on A/C power after 12 minutes, and 15 minutes on battery power. This extra sub menu is not available on the earlier Windows 7 OS that is on my 2 year old Toshiba, so I had no idea it was there. Well, "I learn me sumpin'!" as they say here in Kentucky!
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Post by darylrsv4 on Mar 4, 2013 0:00:10 GMT -5
Hoping someone can help. I have been listening to PC audio since i got my XDA-2 about 2 weeks ago with jriver. Imported my itunes library and everything I have played displays 192 khz on my DAC.
Since yesterday it will only play 44.1 on tracks that were previously showing 192.
Yesterday when I opened jriver I got a message that displayed that it could only play 44.1. I tried going in the settings to change it back to 192 with no luck. Can someone help? Thank you..
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Post by AudioHTIT on Mar 4, 2013 1:26:54 GMT -5
Hoping someone can help. I have been listening to PC audio since i got my XDA-2 about 2 weeks ago with jriver. Imported my itunes library and everything I have played displays 192 khz on my DAC. Since yesterday it will only play 44.1 on tracks that were previously showing 192. Yesterday when I opened jriver I got a message that displayed that it could only play 44.1. I tried going in the settings to change it back to 192 with no luck. Can someone help? Thank you.. Are you saying that all your original files are 192/24? Purchased from HDTracks and the like? None of them are CD rips (which would correctly display 44.1)? |
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Post by GreenKiwi on Mar 4, 2013 1:35:32 GMT -5
You might also pop over to the jriver forum and ask a few questions? They might help if there was a setting or two that might need to be changed?
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Post by garbulky on Mar 4, 2013 4:35:59 GMT -5
Use WASAPI as your output mode in j river. It will work.
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, and maybe that is enough to define "a sound character".
; I might well pick it over the Benchmark. I haven't heard a NEW Benchmark model either. They claim to have made significant improvements; but they also claimed that there was nothing worth improving with the old one; methinks they marketed themselves into a bit of a corner there 
] 
I don't recall my 0Dac having any problem in this regard, but the last time I listened to it was a while ago.)
