Bi-Wire

[bobbyt]

That Audio Asylum article does not explain any actual phenomenon of bi wiring. He simply listed every pseudo-science word he knew, with a bunch of grammatical mistakes mixed in. The cables do not carry different frequencies, the drivers are not better protected, there is no "division of labor", and he gives no reality-based reason for why anything would be different.

As contrast, here's a bit about bi wiring that touches each of the claims about it, by an author who sticks to explainable facts and empirical data. He really goes out if his way to find legitimacy to the various claims, but just ends up showing how silly they are.
sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#bi_wiring

[audiosyndrome]

Dec 18, 2012 22:07:40 GMT -5 charlie7 said:

Yes, bi-wiring is a myth. The use of two separate speaker wires connected to the same amp and feeding a passive speaker crossover can not split frequency ranges between the wires. Resistance, inductance and capacitance are the wire properties that matter.
Charlie

I'm sorry but the statement above is not correct. Each wire in a bi-wire setup carries separate frequencies. The wire going to a mid/woofer in a two way system carries frequencies below the speaker crossover frequency; the wire going to the tweeter carries the frequencies above the crossover frequency (with some frequency overlap in both cases).

This is easily demonstrated in a two way speaker with a first order crossover. In this model the woofer crossover has a series inductor and the tweeter crossover has a series capacitor. At very low frequencies, the inductor appears as a short circuit and the capacitor appears as an open circuit. Therefore, all the signal current passes to the woofer. Simple ohms law.

The reverse happens at high frequencies. The inductor appears as an open circuit, the capacitor appears as a short circuit. Therefore, all the signal current passes to the tweeter.

One more thing to mention. To bi-wire correctly requires two SEPARATE wires (spaced), not two wires bundled together in one cable. The separation of the wires prevents the strong(er) magnetic field generated by the woofer signal current from modulating the lesser magnetic field generated by the tweeter signal current. This is the underlying scientific principle for which bi-wiring can work.

And to mention again, for bi (or tri)-wiring to work, one needs a system capable of hearing the subtle differences from a standard wire connection.

Russ

[audiosyndrome]

Dec 21, 2012 1:15:33 GMT -5 emovac said:

I tried it banana at amp, to bi-wire banana at the speakers using Canare 4S11 Star-quad, removing the jumpers. In my case, I couldn't hear any difference. I ended up going back to standard configuration. Thought it was worth a try.

No good. As I stated above, separate cables are required. Canare 4S11 bundles everything together.

Russ

[Deleted]

Nonsense. Both wires in a bi-wire configuration are connected to a single output from the amp. The splitting of the frequencies occurs in the speaker's crossover network. If you were to insert a frequency spectrum analyzer into the path of either wire coming from the amp, you would see this as so. Bi-wiring simply affects the perceive gauge of the wire...

Bi-wire = buy-wire, plain and simple...

-RW-

[oppman99]

No, Charlie7's comment is correct. Extra wires do not carry separate frequencies. Whether you run wires to the binding posts and have a jumper or run two sets from the amp terminals makes no difference from an electricity standpoint. Now it does increase the effective gauge of your wire as mentioned earlier in the thread. That might be the difference you hear.

My system is plenty revealing and biwiring does not provide any audible benefits. I've tried it just because I had the extra wire.

[audiosyndrome]

Dec 21, 2012 11:14:48 GMT -5 bobbyt said:

That Audio Asylum article does not explain any actual phenomenon of bi wiring. He simply listed every pseudo-science word he knew, with a bunch of grammatical mistakes mixed in. The cables do not carry different frequencies, the drivers are not better protected, there is no "division of labor", and he gives no reality-based reason for why anything would be different.

As contrast, here's a bit about bi wiring that touches each of the claims about it, by an author who sticks to explainable facts and empirical data. He really goes out if his way to find legitimacy to the various claims, but just ends up showing how silly they are.

sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm#bi_wiring

Hmm; we must be reading different links. Here is what I get from the westhost link quoting the author

"Many people have said that bi-wiring improved the sound quality, and although I have not used it myself (bi-amping being so far superior), I will reserve judgment until further notice".

So the author has "never used bi-wiring" and you think that makes him an authority. I agree with the author that bi-amping makes a much more noticeable improvement (do to increased headroom) but he does not speak to the scientific reason why bi-wiring can work.

Russ

[audiosyndrome]

Dec 22, 2012 16:30:34 GMT -5 @rlw said:

Nonsense. Both wires in a bi-wire configuration are connected to a single output from the amp. The splitting of the frequencies occurs in the speaker's crossover network. If you were to insert a frequency spectrum analyzer into the path of either wire coming from the amp, you would see this as so. Bi-wiring simply affects the perceive gauge of the wire...

Bi-wire = buy-wire, plain and simple...

-RW-

Correct; and wrong.

Correct- the crossover does the splitting of frequencies. But when you bi-wire (separate wires to separate terminals) the crossover is broken into two separate parts with the woofer current going to the woofer and the tweeter current going to the tweeter. I= E/R.

Wrong-spectrum analyzer would show a different signal on both wires. See above I = E/R.

Russ

[audiosyndrome]

Dec 22, 2012 16:40:04 GMT -5 oppman99 said:

No, Charlie7's comment is correct. Extra wires do not carry separate frequencies. Whether you run wires to the binding posts and have a jumper or run two sets from the amp terminals makes no difference from an electricity standpoint. Now it does increase the effective gauge of your wire as mentioned earlier in the thread. That might be the difference you hear.

My system is plenty revealing and biwiring does not provide any audible benefits. I've tried it just because I had the extra wire.

Not sure if you understand how to bi-wire. It's not two sets of wires from the amp to the speaker binding posts (kinda like wires in parallel).

It's two sets of wires from the amp to two sets of binding posts; not one set of binding posts. Increasing wire gauge has nothing to do with bi-wiring. It appears from your post that you did not bi-wire properly.

Russ

[mgbpuff]

I won't say that bi-wiring results in improvement or not. There are simply too many variables. Here, however, is my experience. I have Revel Salon II speakers which are very capable of revealing differences in extreme highs and lows. I bought two pairs of silver double shotgun cables from Clear Day. I first connected only one cable with the speaker jumpers in place. Next I removed the jumpers and connected both cables. There was an improvement in the high frequencies with bi-wire, but I was not happy with the low freguency response so I replaced the jumpers and simply paralleled both sets of cables. This was much better on both the high frequency and low frequencies, and I have left them connected this way ever since. It seems to me that more conductor cross sectional area was more important than division of the frequencies between two sets of cables. In fact high frequencies travel closer to the skin of a round conductor than low frequencies, so they really aren't sharing the same cross sectional area of conduction, but simply more area must be a boon to both high and low frequencies.

[oppman99]

Yes,I do understand how to biwire. It makes no difference from a circuit standpoint whether you run two sets of wires to separate binding posts or a single set with a jumper between the posts.

It looks like you don't understand physics (which I have a degree in). Conservation of current is the principle. The sum of current into any junction has to equal the current leaving. All you are doing with biwire is changing the physical location of the junction. There is nothing to separate the frequencies until the current reaches the crossover. Both pairs will carry a full range signal.

My gauge argument still stands. By running the extra wire, you are effectively decreasing the gauge of your run compared to a single set.

Dec 22, 2012 16:57:03 GMT -5 audiosyndrome said:

Dec 22, 2012 16:40:04 GMT -5 oppman99 said:

No, Charlie7's comment is correct. Extra wires do not carry separate frequencies. Whether you run wires to the binding posts and have a jumper or run two sets from the amp terminals makes no difference from an electricity standpoint. Now it does increase the effective gauge of your wire as mentioned earlier in the thread. That might be the difference you hear.

My system is plenty revealing and biwiring does not provide any audible benefits. I've tried it just because I had the extra wire.

Not sure if you understand how to bi-wire. It's not two sets of wires from the amp to the speaker binding posts (kinda like wires in parallel).

It's two sets of wires from the amp to two sets of binding posts; not one set of binding posts. Increasing wire gauge has nothing to do with bi-wiring. It appears from your post that you did not bi-wire properly.

Russ

[Deleted]

>> My gauge argument still stands. By running the extra wire, you are effectively increasing the gauge of your run compared to a single set.<<

Exactly! You are simply reducing the gauge of the wire run. Electrically, there are no benefits unless the gauge of wire you are currently using is too thin (higher resistance) to adequately supply the drivers with the needed current...

-RW-

[klinemj]

The whole bi-wire debate is an interesting one.

If we, for a moment, set aside audibility for a moment, the basic laws of circuits say that IF one has a set voltage leaving an amp, and has:
- a 1st set of wires leaving the amp outputs to a set of binding posts that goes to a tweeter/midrange,
- a 2nd set of wires leaving the amp outputs to a set of binding posts that goes to a woofer,
- and there's no connection (i.e., no jumper) between the 2 binding posts...

Then one of the following must be true...the currents going to each portion must be:
- equal if the resistances of each total sub-circuit are the same
- different if the resistances of each total sub-circuit are different

Given resistance of a woofer tends to be very different than that of a mid or tweeter and the drivers tend to dominate the resistance (not the x-overs), then 2nd case most surely is true.

So - bi-wiring can indeed result in different currents reaching the woofer vs. the mid/tweeter section.

This may or may not make a difference in what the sound is.

And, as someone else noted - the x-overs make sure the drivers see different frequencies (even though both sets of wires carry the same frequencies to the inputs of each part of the x-over).

And that's all really swell..but whether we can hear a difference or not...?

That's very debatable. What currents go where..that's rooted in laws of circuits.

Mark

[mgbpuff]

There is a woofer circuit and a tweeter/midrange circuit. It makes little difference whether the jumper that dellivers voltage to those two circuits is located at the speaker terminals or at the amplifier terminals. However two sets of speaker wires (four wires)I increases the cross sectional area available for current flow for most of the distance. While it is true that the two wires will carry different currents, the total current is the same as when one set of wires is used. The speaker wire impedance is insignificant compared to the speaker and crossover impedances.

[geebo]

Russ is correct. There are different currents flowing thru each pair of wires in a properly bi-wired system. It's electronics 101. Different combinations of capacitors and inductors only allow selected frequencies to pass. If there is no complete path far a given frequency, it simply does not flow. Now whether that difference can be heard is a whole nuther discussion. Personally, I can't hear a difference.

[klinemj]

Yep...

[mgbpuff]

Kirchoff's current theorem is still applicable. The currents flowing from the amp towards the junction is equal to the sum of the currents flowing to the speaker after the same junction. This is true regardless of where the junction is located.

[geebo]

Dec 23, 2012 12:02:36 GMT -5 mgbpuff said:

Kirchoff's current theorem is still applicable. The currents flowing from the amp towards the junction is equal to the sum of the currents flowing to the speaker after the same junction. This is true regardless of where the junction is located.

That may be true, but that doesn't mean the currents in each pair of wires is identical.

[RichGuy]

The current flow through the wire is affected by what is at both ends of the wire not just one.

This is why bi-wiring works even though the amp end is the same connection at the amp the speaker draw at the speaker end of the cable is not the same, bi-wiring separates this rather than using one wire to satisfy all speakers.

Picture it as two different rivers flowing from the same source, even though the two rivers come from that same source does not mean the rivers remain identical other things affect this as well.

Remember even at best bi-wiring can only offer very subtle change to a system and even this will not be the same on every system, if this is worth it to you is only up to you. If money is tight don't bother one set of wires works just fine, but if you enjoy playing with getting the most from your system bi-wiring is an option you may want to play with, some people like it and feel it's worth it.

[mgbpuff]

I tried. It wasn't worth it, In my case, that is ! Look at it like this - the current that flows through the high/mid speaker circuit and the current that flows through the woofer speaker circuit may not be equal to each other due to different impedances, but each current level is unchanged no matter how close or how far away the junction is located. If the conductors are exactly the same, the results as far as the speaker components are concerned are also exactly the same. High frequencies run closer to the the outer circumference of a wire than lower frequency currents (this is called skin effect) they do not occupy the same areas of a given conductor. That's why it makes no difference whether there is one conductor for both blocks of frequencies to flow in or two conductors for each to flow in separately. They use their different areas of the conductor to flow in regardless of whether the higher or lower frequency blocks are present or not present. Now if the two conductors are different sizes, then some other differences may come into play that may be audible.

[12elfthfloor]

Richguy I like the river analogy!

Anyways, in the best interests of self i pulled the tri-wire that got a few here so hot under the collar, and single wired the speakers with the jumpers back in. After a day of that i tri-wired again, instant difference. At the same time i also did the same to my polk RT 20s powered by XPA-3s. no discernable difference to the sound. also tried it on some Cresta speakers bi-amped this time from my VSXa10 AI, no difference. but on my KEF 207.2s - XPA-1s definitely, and definitely when i get the where-with-all i will bi-amp those too and see what happens.