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Post by derrellb on Dec 29, 2012 14:31:06 GMT -5
I would never have to be concerned about any clipping issues.  Then you're not listening loud enough!  ;D I managed to clip the XPR once while watching a scene from The Dark Knight Rises.  Now that is scary. Is your XPR running on a dedicated 20 amp circuit? I just ordered a xpr2 and a xpr5. I would imagine it would be hard to clip those amps with that much power. What is the impedence curve of your speakers? |
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Post by monkumonku on Dec 29, 2012 14:32:25 GMT -5
Oh you're just sour grapes. ;D That said, yeah, I know I don't use anywhere near the capacity of my amps but I just like having them. Many of the power LED's will never know what it is like to be lit up. How can it be sour grapes when I own a pair of XPA-1's?  If all the power LED's lit up I doubt that I would be close enough to see it.  Oops, I didn't bother to check your signature gear. ;D Now what you can always do if you don't like your neighbors is point the speakers out the window and then watch all the LED's light up on your amps. |
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Post by The Mad Norseman on Dec 29, 2012 14:54:17 GMT -5
Hi, As a side note, just read a glowing review of a $2,200.00 "super receiver" in a well known magazine. The reviewer praised the unit which is rated at 7x150 watts into 8 ohms for being able to deliver a blistering 7x63 watts at 8 ohms with all channels driven!! Wow!! Hold me, I think I'm going to faint!! Geez. Can you imagine what power levels we could state if we measured them like a receiver?? Ha!! We welcome comparison with any other product out there. Cheers, Big Dan I read the same review, but don't think the reviewer (or AVR manufacturer) is being deceiving, or dishonest about their power ratings, or anything else about it's amp that I can tell. They're very up front about the 150w, 2 channels driven spec, and it clearly test bench measures out at 69w x 5, and 63w x 7. But I didn't see anyone trying to hide, or misrepresent anything... Of course, an AVR's amps can't compete with a separate multi-channel amplifier, but I really don't think they're trying to either. Apples vs. oranges. |
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Post by edoggrc51 on Dec 29, 2012 15:09:29 GMT -5
Then you're not listening loud enough! ;D I managed to clip the XPR once while watching a scene from The Dark Knight Rises. Now that is scary. Is your XPR running on a dedicated 20 amp circuit? I just ordered a xpr2 and a xpr5. I would imagine it would be hard to clip those amps with that much power. What is the impedence curve of your speakers? Its actually running on a 15amp circuit (shared with my 4311ci, SMS-1, ERC-2, & Oppo 93). The speakers have an 8ohm rating but can dip just under 4ohms IIRC. |
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Post by shokdu on Dec 29, 2012 15:24:35 GMT -5
Does one really need more than 300 watts of power for a home speaker in even a modestly large home room anyways? To me the question is moot. I see this more as bragging rights than real practicality. My speakers eat up all 1kW that the XPA-1's can give, and then some. I'd venture to guess that you just need to get a more power hungry speaker in order to appreciate higher output capability. I certainly wish I had XPR-1's instead of my XPA-1's. |
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Post by danr on Dec 29, 2012 15:34:00 GMT -5
I would never have to be concerned about any clipping issues. Then you're not listening loud enough! ;D I managed to clip the XPR once while watching a scene from The Dark Knight Rises. You, sir, are a complete nut (and please know that I say this as a complement  ). I believe you. When I had posted recently that I had twice cut loose the XPR-5 (i.e. "released The Kracken") at "reference plus" sound levels...it was with The Dark Knight Rises one of those times. I had never seen the meters on my XPR-5 shoot up so fast and so high than I did with The Dark Knight Rises during a couple of scenes. After about 20-30 seconds, I thought the house was going to come down around me...so I backed off the volume. |
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Post by ocezam on Dec 29, 2012 18:00:55 GMT -5
Hi, As a side note, just read a glowing review of a $2,200.00 "super receiver" in a well known magazine. The reviewer praised the unit which is rated at 7x150 watts into 8 ohms for being able to deliver a blistering 7x63 watts at 8 ohms with all channels driven!! Wow!! Hold me, I think I'm going to faint!! Geez. Can you imagine what power levels we could state if we measured them like a receiver?? Ha!! We welcome comparison with any other product out there. Cheers, Big Dan I read the same review, but don't think the reviewer (or AVR manufacturer) is being deceiving, or dishonest about their power ratings, or anything else about it's amp that I can tell. They're very up front about the 150w, 2 channels driven spec, and it clearly test bench measures out at 69w x 5, and 63w x 7. But I didn't see anyone trying to hide, or misrepresent anything... Of course, an AVR's amps can't compete with a separate multi-channel amplifier, but I really don't think they're trying to either. Apples vs. oranges. I think Dan was simply getting a chuckle out of the "able to deliver a blistering 7x63 watts at 8 ohms with all channels driven!!" quote. I too think it is HILARIOUS! to actually print the phrase: 63 "blistering" watts. ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS! |
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Post by edoggrc51 on Dec 29, 2012 18:17:10 GMT -5
Then you're not listening loud enough! ;D I managed to clip the XPR once while watching a scene from The Dark Knight Rises. You, sir, are a complete nut (and please know that I say this as a complement ). I believe you. When I had posted recently that I had twice cut loose the XPR-5 (i.e. "released The Kracken") at "reference plus" sound levels...it was with The Dark Knight Rises one of those times. I had never seen the meters on my XPR-5 shoot up so fast and so high than I did with The Dark Knight Rises during a couple of scenes. After about 20-30 seconds, I thought the house was going to come down around me...so I backed off the volume. Its all good! lol Just FYI, it was the scene when "the Bat" first takes-off out of the alley. Thats scene's got some pretty wild dynamics!! ;D |
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Post by jevans64 on Dec 29, 2012 18:51:09 GMT -5
You, sir, are a complete nut (and please know that I say this as a complement ). I believe you. When I had posted recently that I had twice cut loose the XPR-5 (i.e. "released The Kracken") at "reference plus" sound levels...it was with The Dark Knight Rises one of those times. I had never seen the meters on my XPR-5 shoot up so fast and so high than I did with The Dark Knight Rises during a couple of scenes. After about 20-30 seconds, I thought the house was going to come down around me...so I backed off the volume. Its all good! lol Just FYI, it was the scene when "the Bat" first takes-off out of the alley. Thats scene's got some pretty wild dynamics!! ;D I noticed overall that The Dark Knight Rises has an extreme mix. Had to back off 5 dB from my normal movie levels in order to listen comfortably. I guess it has a hot mix to make up for the sub-par plot and acting. A WWE wrestler being the bad guy was lame. I know there was a lame plot twist with that, but that still doesn't keep it from being lame-lame. |
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Post by Jim on Dec 29, 2012 21:13:56 GMT -5
As for the wattage specs, the XPA series are published at .1% THD, while other brands publish at under.01, so their numbers do seem high rather than low to begin with. Don't get me wrong here, they have great bang for buck. It does appear here that the XPR amps hit their 4 ohm rated power while at a lower THD which is again better than the XPA series. But if they can double their power at 4 ohms but are maybe up to 1% THD while doing it, I can see Dan's point. Either way, they don't have to apologize, the XPR amps are indeed a new bench mark. I'd never have need of one, but many are reporting they are amazing. It's funny you say that, because I was comparing amps rated output at various distortion levels... The more I looked at the AP data, the less I felt like I really cared... The reason being, any of the amps are putting out a ton of power at .1% and a ton of power at 1%, and even more at say, 10%. You're probably hitting those levels with REALLY brief peaks, and it's debatable as to what level of distortion you need to hit for it to even be audible. It really seems more academic than practical. I imagine trying to test it would probably not lead to conclusive answers anyway....  I'm guessing that MOST of the 2x (non-Emo) amps/AVRs just double the 8 ohm number and they simply aren't ever called out on it. |
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Post by Jim on Dec 29, 2012 21:19:43 GMT -5
I read the same review, but don't think the reviewer (or AVR manufacturer) is being deceiving, or dishonest about their power ratings, or anything else about it's amp that I can tell. They're very up front about the 150w, 2 channels driven spec, and it clearly test bench measures out at 69w x 5, and 63w x 7. But I didn't see anyone trying to hide, or misrepresent anything... Of course, an AVR's amps can't compete with a separate multi-channel amplifier, but I really don't think they're trying to either. Apples vs. oranges. I struggle with the 2 channels driven spec. Sometimes the fact that it's not ACD is conveniently omitted........ Or listed in small print. I don't like guessing when it's omitted. I'm not saying that it's deceptive...... but it does seem like an easy way to "inflate" the perceived capabilities. Measured at ACD, that's a mere 42% of 150W. (I'm not trying to open the you never hit ACD can of worms!! ) |
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Post by Jim on Dec 29, 2012 21:26:32 GMT -5
I would never have to be concerned about any clipping issues. Then you're not listening loud enough! ;D I managed to clip the XPR once while watching a scene from The Dark Knight Rises. I missed your post before... Let me also say... You're crazy!!! That reminds me of this time I made a comment to a JBL employee after a demo of the JBL Synthesis system. They played the shoot out from "Open Range". He remarked that the gunshots only peaked around 80-90 dB. I made some remark about cranking it up until you lose interest.. He said "You NEVER lose interest!!!" So true ;D |
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Post by weird23 on Dec 29, 2012 22:07:07 GMT -5
I would never have to be concerned about any clipping issues. Then you're not listening loud enough! ;D I managed to clip the XPR once while watching a scene from The Dark Knight Rises. I've managed to get the red clip lights on my XPA-1's flash a few times before watching Transformers 3. Was using the Dyn C1's at the time. |
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Post by The Mad Norseman on Dec 29, 2012 22:49:24 GMT -5
I read the same review, but don't think the reviewer (or AVR manufacturer) is being deceiving, or dishonest about their power ratings, or anything else about it's amp that I can tell. They're very up front about the 150w, 2 channels driven spec, and it clearly test bench measures out at 69w x 5, and 63w x 7. But I didn't see anyone trying to hide, or misrepresent anything... Of course, an AVR's amps can't compete with a separate multi-channel amplifier, but I really don't think they're trying to either. Apples vs. oranges. I think Dan was simply getting a chuckle out of the "able to deliver a blistering 7x63 watts at 8 ohms with all channels driven!!" quote. I too think it is HILARIOUS! to actually print the phrase: 63 "blistering" watts. ABSOLUTELY HILARIOUS! Well,...the only thing wrong with your hilarity - is that the word "blistering", (or anything close to it) appears no where at all in that review. I believe that was Big Dan's own addition... |
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Post by Dan Laufman on Dec 30, 2012 9:01:01 GMT -5
Here's the problem... If you state 2 ohm stability, someone will want load the amplifier HARD at two ohms and wonder what is wrong with it when it hits the wall and decides to protect itself. He will then go on every forum in the world and and call it a P.O.S for doing so. How DARE it turn of when it is delivering square waves!!! The nerve!!! Also, very few speakers actually stay ABOVE their rated impedance at all frequencies. Typically they dip BELOW their rated impedance somewhere, and many times that that can be up to half their nominal rated impedance (and of course, life being what it is, this will occur at a frequency where the speaker needs LOT's of power). So, your 4 ohm load may look like a 2 ohm load; your 2 ohm load may look like a 1 ohm load... you get the idea. The amp will look at the volt/amp product on the output stage and say, enough is enough and inhibit. Now, this cowboy will will be upset and let the world know it! Typically, the worse judgment a person uses is directly correlated to how loud they scream when things go wrong... and it is never their fault!! It's that shi**y amp we sold them!! If you have a teenager at home, you've witnessed this logic many, many times. Lonnie and I love to beat the crap out of our amps. It's kind of a hobby with us. We can load an XPR at two ohms, with a real speaker load, and play it like we stole it and never hit the protect. But we can hear clipping and we are sensitive to other signs of distress, so we will back off when it's clear that we're pushing our luck. And by the way, many times it is the SPEAKER that is screaming for help, not the amp!!! And if you want to see some weird loads, saturate the inductors in the crossover of a typical hi-fi speaker, or push the voice coil so hard it leaves the comfort of the magnetic gap; then things get really ugly!! But, can we assume that all of our friends out in Emo-Land have our handsome looks, good judgment, steady hands, and common sense?? Maybe they've had a little too much Jack that night and throw caution to the wind... maybe they are trying to impress their buddies... or maybe they are trying to see how many blocks away from home they can still hear their stereo (BTW, I've done this!! MORE THAN ONCE!!! )... who knows? But you get the idea.... things can, and do, get out of hand. For you see, I was once that nightmare customer who could LITERALLY catch his speakers on FIRE!!! Not smoke, FIRE!!!!! And then complain when they weren't covered under warranty for the SECOND time!! I was the IDIOT who routinely put aluminum foil on the fuses of my poor old Phase Linear 400 amplifier to save money because I blew them out so often!!! I used to load every speaker in my apartment (and my friends) to that amp just to watch the ceiling lights dim to the beat of the music!!! I used to listen to my stereo poolside from the open door of my apartment, THREE floors above, and at the OPPOSITE end of the building!!! Really!!! I had absolutely NO common sense. I WAS the cowboy!!! I know this person well, for he was once ME!!! This is why we state the specifications conservatively, as we KNOW you will push things. We have many customers just like me! We'd be disappointed in you if you didn't have a little fun! Go ahead a load it at 2 ohms, it'll probably sound great, and you're not going to break it. But don't *bleep* at us if the amp protects! It's talking to you, so please listen. Go forth and sin no more. And be smarter then me. Class dismissed. Happy New Year!! Big Dan |
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sorbe
Sensei
"Don't cross the streams..."
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Post by sorbe on Dec 30, 2012 9:17:02 GMT -5
<big grin>
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Post by danr on Dec 30, 2012 10:31:51 GMT -5
Typically, the worse judgment a person uses is directly correlated to how loud they scream when things go wrong... and it is never their fault!! What a true & insightful quote. I guess I always knew this, but had never seen it stated so eloquently, but still in a matter-of-fact way. If you don't mind...I'm going to "steal" this one for use at my office. It's true in many business settings... |
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Lonnie
Emo Staff 
admin
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain
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Post by Lonnie on Dec 30, 2012 10:55:33 GMT -5
When the XPR amps were in their formative stage the discussions were about them doubling their 8 Ohm power rating into 4 Ohms. Early releases of specs had the amps achieving this, while subsequent iterations of the power ratings incrementally moved away from it. I'm wondering if this is just a matter of how they wanted to state the final power ratings in regards to watts, frequency response and THD. You are exactly correct. At first we thought about understating the 8 ohm rating so it would look like it doubled its power into 4 ohm. Which is what most if not all companies do when you see an amp that doubles down. But after Audioholics tested the XPA-2 and dinged us on it when their load bank almost melted ;D, we decided to just state the real power. |
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Post by Porscheguy on Dec 30, 2012 11:05:37 GMT -5
Here's the problem... If you state 2 ohm stability, someone will want load the amplifier HARD at two ohms and wonder what is wrong with it when it hits the wall and decides to protect itself. He will then go on every forum in the world and and call it a P.O.S for doing so. How DARE it turn of when it is delivering square waves!!! The nerve!!! Also, very few speakers actually stay ABOVE their rated impedance at all frequencies. Typically they dip BELOW their rated impedance somewhere, and many times that that can be up to half their nominal rated impedance (and of course, life being what it is, this will occur at a frequency where the speaker needs LOT's of power). So, your 4 ohm load may look like a 2 ohm load; your 2 ohm load may look like a 1 ohm load... you get the idea. The amp will look at the volt/amp product on the output stage and say, enough is enough and inhibit. Now, this cowboy will will be upset and let the world know it! Typically, the worse judgment a person uses is directly correlated to how loud they scream when things go wrong... and it is never their fault!! It's that shi**y amp we sold them!! If you have a teenager at home, you've witnessed this logic many, many times. Lonnie and I love to beat the crap out of our amps. It's kind of a hobby with us. We can load an XPR at two ohms, with a real speaker load, and play it like we stole it and never hit the protect. But we can hear clipping and we are sensitive to other signs of distress, so we will back off when it's clear that we're pushing our luck. And by the way, many times it is the SPEAKER that is screaming for help, not the amp!!! And if you want to see some weird loads, saturate the inductors in the crossover of a typical hi-fi speaker, or push the voice coil so hard it leaves the comfort of the magnetic gap; then things get really ugly!! But, can we assume that all of our friends out in Emo-Land have our handsome looks, good judgment, steady hands, and common sense?? Maybe they've had a little too much Jack that night and throw caution to the wind... maybe they are trying to impress their buddies... or maybe they are trying to see how many blocks away from home they can still hear their stereo (BTW, I've done this!! MORE THAN ONCE!!! )... who knows? But you get the idea.... things can, and do, get out of hand. For you see, I was once that nightmare customer who could LITERALLY catch his speakers on FIRE!!! Not smoke, FIRE!!!!! And then complain when they weren't covered under warranty for the SECOND time!! I was the IDIOT who routinely put aluminum foil on the fuses of my poor old Phase Linear 400 amplifier to save money because I blew them out so often!!! I used to load every speaker in my apartment (and my friends) to that amp just to watch the ceiling lights dim to the beat of the music!!! I used to listen to my stereo poolside from the open door of my apartment, THREE floors above, and at the OPPOSITE end of the building!!! Really!!! I had absolutely NO common sense. I WAS the cowboy!!! I know this person well, for he was once ME!!! This is why we state the specifications conservatively, as we KNOW you will push things. We have many customers just like me! We'd be disappointed in you if you didn't have a little fun! Go ahead a load it at 2 ohms, it'll probably sound great, and you're not going to break it. But don't *bleep* at us if the amp protects! It's talking to you, so please listen. Go forth and sin no more. And be smarter then me. Class dismissed. Happy New Year!! Big Dan Now that, is a complete answer.... |
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Post by sharkman on Dec 30, 2012 11:24:00 GMT -5
The problem is, the cowboy in some will abuse their gear no matter what it's rated. Would seeing that the minimum rating on the XPR amps is 4 amp, would that stop the cowboy from reaching for his roll of tin foil? Nope.
I'm not sure what I am, but I have never had anything I own go into protect. Not once. So perhaps it's something that I can't relate to, the need to under rate an amp to protect a customer from himself. Do what you gotta do, I guess.
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;D
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