Noob DAC and preamp Questions

[jcisbig]

Hey All,

Ok, so I'm completely new to DACs and I think I understand the concept of a preamp. I have a list of questions, and I'd appreciate any answers that I can get!

1. Am I correct in thinking that a DAC like Emotiva's XDA-2 only works for 2 channel sources? It seems like a common use for this might be connecting a computer or cd player with optical or coax?

2. This is a very general question, but what are the main differences between the XDA-2 and XSP-1, and USP-1. They all seem to be dealing with 2ch. material?

3. Between any given source and amplifier, what order would all of the items on Emotiva's "pres and pros" page be in from least sound quality to best sound quality? (ie: is the UMC-200 above or below the USP-1 in terms of sound quality)

4. Am I correct in understanding that the XDA-2, USP-1, and XSP-1 have no real place in improving movie audio since movies are recorded in 5.1 or greater and these devices only deal with 2 channel sources?

5. Hopefully this question makes sense. If I'm planning to build a lower end home theater, I know that I would need to buy a budget receiver, five speakers, and a cheaper sub. If I'm planning to buy a high end two channel system, I know that I'll need a good pair of mains, a good 2 channel amp or monoblocks, a good source, and some sort of processor. Now, what scenarios or plans would be the most common or ideal to use the XDA-2? The XSP-1? The USP-1? Asked another way, in what kind of setup or for what purpose are each of the above components designed for?

I guess that's a good start for now. Thanks in advance for the replies!

[DYohn]

I'll take a stab:

1) Correct
2) In general, the XDA products are DACs and only do one thing, they convert digital stereo into analog stereo. The USP/XSP are 2-channel preamps, so they do switching, volume control, bass management, etc. for analog signals. They do not have digital input capability - for this you would also need a DAC, or a processor with a DAC built in like one of the MC products.
3) Hard to answer this without comparing them side by side. In general, Emotiva's X-series products are designed to be superior to their U-series products.
4) While there are scenarios where you could use them in a home theater, these products are designed for use in a 2-channel system.
5) These products are for 2-channel stereo. They can be incorporated into a movie-oriented setup to build a hybrid system with an analog 2-channel side as well as a multichannel side, but if you are building a home theater you need a processor like the UMC or XMC products.

[Deleted]

David is correct, most outboard DACs are for 2-channel only. The X and U info is also correct...

-RW-

[jcisbig]

Thanks for the info guys! That helps clear some thing up.

Another question. In a 2 channel setup running audio from a CD player, it seems like a USP-1 or XSP-1 would work just fine using the RCA connections. Why would someone want to add an XDA-2 between those two devices? It seems perhaps unnecessary?

[klinemj]

Different DAC's sound different and your CD player has a built in DAC. The XDA2 may sound better than the DAC in your CD player. If so...adding an external DAC, like an XDA2, would improve the sound.

What are you using as a CD player today?

Mark

[jcisbig]

Ok, so there's not any type of DAC built into the USP/XSP then? I guess I was operating under the assumption that they, like an A/V Receiver, would have some sort of DAC. This is why I ask questions!

I'm not really interested in putting together any kind of 2 ch system right now that would need a DAC or either the USP/XSP products, I'm just trying to expand my overall understanding of audio things! I like to think that I know a bit amps and speakers and such, at least more than the average person, but I knew/know next to nothing about the DAC/preamp offerings from Emotiva and wanted to be more educated!

So, to answer the question above, I'm currently either using my four year old blu ray player or my desktop computer (hooked up to my HT system) as my "cd player".

I currently own a Marantz 6005 receiver, upa-7, Aperion Audio speakers all around, and an HSU vtf-15h for a 7.1 setup. I've got a Wii, Blu Ray player, and computer hooked up to all of that. Primarily, I use the Blu Ray player for movie watching and my computer for the music stuff, usually streaming songs via Spotify or iTunes. All my iTunes stuff is in either WAV or 320kbps.

Questions:
1. It seems like people are saying that I would get a better music experience if I were to add an XDA between my computer and my speakers. Where would the XDA go in this case? Would the computer go to the XDA and the XDA to the upa-7? Or would the XDA hook into my receiver somehow?

2. If one were to add an XDA between the blu ray player and the amp, what would be the right way to hook that up? How would you set things up so that a movie audio stream goes to the receiver and CD audio goes to the XDA? Or does one not hook up an XDA to a blu ray player?

3. What would be the proper way to build a two channel system into an existing HT setup? For example, take my setup outlined above. What would I add and how would I connect things up to make use of my Verus Grand towers and sub, as well as my upa-7, and turn that into a 2 channel system? Or is that not the right way to do that?

Thanks!

[klinemj]

First, you are correct...there is no DAC built into the USP or XSP. They are analog-only devices...just 2-channel pre-amps BUT with home theater bypass & bass MGMT built in...which is important is you want a GREAT 2-channel system combined easily with your multichannel system.

To your other questions - they are a bit complicated to answer, and the real answer is "it depends on what you want to do..."

Perhaps you could help us understand your goals (other than learning), and they we could make some focused reco's.

If this were as simple as you want to improve your 2-channel experience without a system also serving multichannel needs, they you could simply hook up your old blue ray or computer to the XDA-2, run that to your amps and your amps to speakers, and you'd have an upgrade.

But, it sounds like you want an all-in-one system (2 channel improvement + good multi-channel AND having your sub integrated on both...), so having a 2-channel pre-amp with bass MGMT built in AND HT Bypass option is critical. The USP and XSP each have that. A USP-1 is a great starter option and an XSP-1 is an awesome option. If you want to go down that road...there are some used USP-1's on the market right now you could get started with for cheap. (For example...I have 1 for sale...see the emporium or PM me!)

Related to your last question, if your primary goal is to improve your 2-channel experience while keeping the multi-channel you have, you could add an external DAC (like XDA-2) and a pre-amp with HT Bypass. The wiring is very simple (we can share that later if that's what you want to do), and when you want to listen to multi-channel - set the USP or XSP to HT Bypass, and it is out of the loop. When you want to listen to best 2-channel, set the USP/XSP to the input you have the XDA-2's outputs plugged into.

Mark

[audiofile]

The XSP-1 & USP-1 do not have DACs in them. They are preamps and limited to analog signals in only. The XDA would sit between them and any 2 channel digital source, such as a computer HD or a music streamer.

1. Computer to XDA to AVR to UPA-7. DAC = Digital to Analog Converter.

2. Leave the XDA out of your multi-channel system use. In other words, let the AVR decode and move the bluray signal.
CD audio out to XDA in (coax, optical, RCA), XDA out to preamp/AVR.

The DAC will handle more than one input source. Take a look at the XDA-2 back panel at Emotiva's website. There are 6 separate inputs available. You use the DAC for 2 channel only. Tuner, CD, computer music, etc...

3. You can build a 2 channel system with what you have. You have to run a source to an available input in your AVR. Then out of the AVR to the amp. What you do is use the AVR as your preamp and your source switcher. Your speaker signal goes from the AVR preamp out to your UPA-7, then on to the speakers. If your CD is a 2 channel source, set up the AVR to play in stereo only when switched to CD.

[klinemj]

true audiofile...and to build on that...the limit in your 2-channel with the Marantz in the 2-channel system will be the sound from the Marantz vs. that of a better stand-alone pre-amp. The S/N ratio of the USP and XSP will pretty darn good...and most do notice.

But, separate from that, what audiofile says is correct.

So bottom line - what is your objective and are there budget limits?

Mark

[jcisbig]

So, even feeding a signal from the XDA into my Marantz would still increase the sound quality (most likely)? Would the signal from the XDA then bypass whatever DAC is in the Marantz? I guess I'm seeing my Marantz as a weak-link in the chain compared to pairing an XDA with a umc-200, usp-1, etc.

Can the XDA be connected straight to an amp, or does it's signal need to go through something like the USP-1, receiver, etc.?

As I said before, I really don't have a goal or budget in mind for anything, I'm just trying to gain more understanding into what these products are used for and how they would be best used in certain situations. I appreciate your answers, thoughts, and experiences!

If I were to consider some kind of upgrade, I believe I would begin by looking to replace the Marantz with something like the umc-200 or similar. That seems like it would best serve me from a 50/50 movies/music standpoint, right? From there, I could add an Emotiva XDA and or USP/XSP stuff to improve audio quality. Am I right in my thinking, or no?

[Dan Laufman]

The XDA-2 loves being connected directly to an amp and is designed to work as a preamp for digitally based music sources, as well is being a great DAC and headphone amp.

It's designed for maximum system flexibility. For a real treat, connect it directly to your power amp and sit back and enjoy!

You'll get hooked on the sound quality improvement.

Welcome to the family!
Big Dan

[KeithL]

Like Big Dan says, the XDA-2 loves to be connected directly to an amp, and you will probably be amazed at how much better it sounds.

Whether you could connect it through the Marantz and bypass the internal processing entirely is up to the Marantz. Better equipment (like all our pre / pros) offers a "Direct" or "Bypass" mode which, when you choose it, connects your input source straight to the amp (through the volume control). Many higher-end receivers also offer this. You have to be careful, though, because some equipment has a mode they CALL "direct", but which still goes through the processor. You have to read the fine print for the particular product to verify that their "direct" mode actually bypasses ALL processing.

I think you've chosen the best upgrade path. Do remember, though, that you will need to replace your current receiver with a UMC-200 and a power amp (the UMC-200 is a pre / pro), so it needs a power amp to go with it. (A UPA-500 for 5.1, or a UPA-700 for 7.1, would do the job very nicely...)

Jan 3, 2013 23:36:19 GMT -5 jcisbig said:

So, even feeding a signal from the XDA into my Marantz would still increase the sound quality (most likely)? Would the signal from the XDA then bypass whatever DAC is in the Marantz? I guess I'm seeing my Marantz as a weak-link in the chain compared to pairing an XDA with a umc-200, usp-1, etc.

Can the XDA be connected straight to an amp, or does it's signal need to go through something like the USP-1, receiver, etc.?

As I said before, I really don't have a goal or budget in mind for anything, I'm just trying to gain more understanding into what these products are used for and how they would be best used in certain situations. I appreciate your answers, thoughts, and experiences!

If I were to consider some kind of upgrade, I believe I would begin by looking to replace the Marantz with something like the umc-200 or similar. That seems like it would best serve me from a 50/50 movies/music standpoint, right? From there, I could add an Emotiva XDA and or USP/XSP stuff to improve audio quality. Am I right in my thinking, or no?

[Dark Ranger]

I use the XDA-2 connected directly to my XPA-200 via XLR. It's fantastic!

I've considered a separate preamp like the XSP-1, but the XDA-2 does its thing so well that it's not needed. ;D

[audiofile]

I'd replace the Marantz eventually. Get one of the pre-amps, a DAC and keep the UPA-7.

Since the DAC handles 6 inputs (4 different types) you should have all the input/output connectivity you need.

[garbulky]

Something I think people have forgotten to tell you is this. The DAC takes a digital source and converts it into analog. Analog audio is actual audio. Digital is just how it is stored. So the DAC component is very important because it performs the job of the conversion. And all DACS aren't equal. For instance those in AVR's have to compete with the $ the manufacturer uses for amp section, the pre-amp section, etc.

So an AVR is an exercise in heavy compromise. Usually most of the $$ are spent on features and not as much with sound quality. For instance the pre-amp in an AVR is often digital. The DAC, linestage and pre-amp are not concentrated on much.
The most bang for your buck you will notice right away is to get a separate power amplifier. Then it appears that you are concentrating on a surround sound setup. If so, I would skip the XDA-2 and get a UMC-200 standalone surround sound processor. The UMC-200 also has a DAC in it and a pre-amplifier. However it is specialized for surround sound but care and attention has been spent to ensure that it has a good sound quality.
So in short: your best bang for the bucks improvements:
Surround sound: UMC-200, UPA-500 (or higher x-series amplifier - even an XPA-3 or XPA-2 will be a big improvement).
Stereo: an XDA-2 and a UPA-200 or an XPA-2.
The XDA-2 has a great DAC, line stage AND has a great pre-amplifier stage. It's probably not as good as a XSP-1, but it is certainly very upto the task.
In short: a DAC creates the sound. Since the sound signal is quite low in voltage, it needs to create it with quality. Because amplified garbage is still amplified garbage ;D
A pre-amp: provides a volume control and subwoofer management. It can also help a DAC integrate with a surround sound setup with HT bypass mode. If you so choose. I wouldn't reccomend this option if money is tight.I say go with 2 channel or surround sound.
A surround sound processor: UMC-200 is a surround sound DAC and pre-amplifier and provides very nice overall sound quality usually as good or better than an AVR.
I hope that helps. Let us know if you have questions.

[jcisbig]

So, it kinda seems like there are two types of DACs. One type handles the conversion of two channel audio (XDA, XSP, USP), and the other converts multi-channel audio (UMC, XMC). Am I right?

If so, it seems like people usually hold the two channel DACs in higher regard than the multi channel ones as far as having better sound quality?

Couldn't a product be made that has both great two channel and multi channel DACs? Or would that be much more expensive?

[klinemj]

I would say it more like there are different qualities of DAC's (rather than there being different 'types'), and some are set up too only do 2 channels and some do more channels. And yes...someone could put the really high quality ones into an all-in-one unit that includes the DAC's, volume control, and amps...and some do just that. But what a prior lounger member was saying is that in typical AVR's, the makers skimp overall to hit low price points that more consumers are willing to go for.

So typically, if you have a low/medium end AVR and CD player, an external DAC will improve the sound.

Make sense?

Mark

[garbulky]

As they've mentioned the XSP-1 and USP-1 has nothing to do with a DAC or conversion of two channel audio.
The only DAC is the XDA-2.
The XSP-1 and USP-1 are only (very good) volume controls. They cannot "create" sound. They take the sound from a DAC and then adjust the volume to make it louder or softer while trying to preserve the audio quality. Their entire goal is to preserve the sound given from a DAC like the xda-2 while changing the volume.

A 2 channel DAC is specialized on just producing audio from a digital signal. That's what allows it to sound that good.

A multichannel DAC- or a surround sound processor like the umc-200 - is also used for a whole lot of other stuff. For instance, they have to be able to decode surround sound signals, they have to be able to accept analog inputs (which 2 channel DACS don't), some have video processing capabilities, room equalization and room correction functions. Almost all of them have pre-amplifier sections in built into them as well.

I think your question is how much better is the sound from a 2 channel DAC compared to a multichannel DAC ?
Well the difference at less than $500 isn't staggerring. They are similar. However get into the high end DAC's and they become very good. But when you do get into high end DACS they usually don't have volume controls. So you have to purchase a pre-amplifier like the XSP-1 or USP-1 to use as a volume control. This makes the costs rather high.

However there are a whole range of great multi channel DACS that can get you the best of both worlds. For instance the UMC-200 is really good. Also the OPPO blu-ray players BDP 95 and BDP 105 have very good DACS on them. Also if you want to spend quite a bit more the upcoming emotiva XMC-1 also has very good DACS in it.
So what I'm saying is if you want surround sound, go with a STANDALONE surround sound processor like I mentioned. Not an AVR. If you only do stereo, go with a stereo DAC.

Either way you will be happy.

[klinemj]

jcisbig...since you are into learning more that working details of planning a purchase, I'll throw in 1 more thing. Your bluray player also has a DAC in it, as do all CD players and the bluray's that garbulky mentions above. The Oppos would make fine players for 2 channel or multichannel.

On the other hand, if your priority were 2-channel and you didn't care much about multichannel - then a high quality CD player that has a great DAC built in would be a cheaper option. Emotiva's ERC-2 certainly fits that description. At $400 right now, it's a fantastic deal for 2-channel.

A very good way to get into a nice step up in both 2-channel and multichannel would be to buy an ERC-2 and a UMC-200 and pair that with your UPA-7. If you want to take a smaller jump, buy a used UMC-1. The main advantages, as I see them, of the UMC-200 over the UMC-1 are the new EmoQ with PEQ and the absence of video processing and related faster HDMI switching times. But, for $400 for an ERC-2 and the intro price for the UMC-200 with the upgrade option in hand...that's a very nice 2 channel and multichannel system (as you would used the DAC's in the UMC-200 for your multichannel decoding and the net result will likely be a big multichannel improvement for you in addition to a boost in 2-channel sound quality).

Mark

[jcisbig]

I've been out of town for a few days, so sorry for dropping off the map! Thanks for all of the responses and input!

Kline, if I understand you correctly, you suggest the umc-200 and the erc-2 because the umc would provide a quality multi-channel DAC while the erc would provide a quality 2 channel DAC?

I'm understanding that all CD, Blu Ray, DVD, etc. players have some kind of DAC in them. What happens when I run an HDMI cable from my Blu Ray player to my receiver? Do both the blu ray DAC and the receiver DAC do something to the sound at that point? If not, which one does, and what decides which one does it?

If I were to add a DAC like the xda-2 into my system and connect my blu ray player and computer to it to improve the sound quality of my CDs (blu ray player), and my iTunes music (computer), how would I connect the Blu Ray player through the DAC in such a way that it does its magic with a CD and yet can still send the uncompressed audio from Blu Ray movies to my receiver via HDMI? The xda-2 doesn't have an HDMI in, and the uncompressed soundtracks won't go out over anything other than HDMI unless I'm mistaken.

How would the DAC included in the XMC-1 compare to the one in the XDA-2? Or is that a dumb question at this point since the XMC isn't released and no one really knows?

Also, regarding computer audio, don't computers have some sort of DAC built into the motherboards? On my computer, I have multi-channel audio outputs via 3.5mm jacks as well as optical and coaxial audio outputs. I could connect my computer via optical or coax, but has the information being sent to the XDA already been "tainted" by my computer? Or are computers able to put out a pure digital signal that hasn't been messed with?