Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2013 19:52:23 GMT -5
I would like to try the XPR series if I had 20amp circuits :-) You don't need 20 amps to run them. Just get the right cord. 15 amps is just fine. |
|
|
|
Post by roadrunner on Jan 6, 2013 22:13:23 GMT -5
Something that is often overlooked when looking at the power amp is just how much headroom is really needed; and I am talking about the instantaneous power delivery during transit response. Many years ago, I was reading a white paper by Dr. Poole about the huge power reserves needed to handle the instantaneous demands of an uncompressed recording of a full orchestra during dynamic passages.
I think Chuckienut touched upon this a few months ago when he pointed out that an amp could easily be called upon to deliver 5000 to 7000 watts of instantaneous power for a fraction of a second to produce undistorted, uncompressed musical scores. I think Dr. Poole was the first to document this tremendous demand for power during transients. This is the true meaning of headroom and the reason you might want to buy a power amp that is "over-kill" for your particular room size and speaker's sensitivity. Have you ever noticed how great amps don't sound stressed even at very high SPL levels. They don't sound too loud, they maintain amazing clarity as the sound level increases. This is "headroom" that is easy to understand.
|
|
|
|
Post by The Mad Norseman on Jan 6, 2013 23:03:11 GMT -5
What made you not even consider the XPA-5? I notice your fronts have a rating of 125 watts and 91 sens. No doubt your room will pound! chuckienut hit the nail on the head in his accurate breakdown of the stats involved here in his response #77,...(I already knew he was a VERY perceptive guy from months of reading his posts - good job!). And sharkman, I did indeed consider at the XPA-5 also (another great amp at a terrific price), but with the XPR's performance and quality compared to the Parasound (pretty much on par it appears), and for just a bit more money than the XPA, and a WHOLE LOT less than the Parasound Halo A51, I just couldn't resist. Seriously, I can't imagine a greater bargain in the high performance audio world - what a great multi-channel amp this is! I'm getting anxious to get this system all together soon in its final form too, along with the upgraded center channel speaker (JBL LC2 now in residence, but not yet hooked up), but the wait is half the fun, right?  |
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Jan 6, 2013 23:09:54 GMT -5
Something that is often overlooked when looking at the power amp is just how much headroom is really needed; and I am talking about the instantaneous power delivery during transit response. Many years ago, I was reading a white paper by Dr. Poole about the huge power reserves needed to handle the instantaneous demands of an uncompressed recording of a full orchestra during dynamic passages. I think Chuckienut touched upon this a few months ago when he pointed out that an amp could easily be called upon to deliver 5000 to 7000 watts of instantaneous power for a fraction of a second to produce undistorted, uncompressed musical scores. I think Dr. Poole was the first to document this tremendous demand for power during transients. This is the true meaning of headroom and the reason you might want to buy a power amp that is "over-kill" for your particular room size and speaker's sensitivity. Have you ever noticed how great amps don't sound stressed even at very high SPL levels. They don't sound too loud, they maintain amazing clarity as the sound level increases. This is "headroom" that is easy to understand. I think that you're actually referring to Dr. Floyd Toole? I had the opportunity to spend hours listening to him lecture at CEDIA EXPO. Amazing experience. He made a remark about how most amps that are being installed in home theaters don't average very high (like, 150WPC), and how often clipping must happen. |
|
|
|
Post by sharkman on Jan 7, 2013 0:04:51 GMT -5
What made you not even consider the XPA-5? I notice your fronts have a rating of 125 watts and 91 sens. No doubt your room will pound! chuckienut hit the nail on the head in his accurate breakdown of the stats involved here in his response #77,...(I already knew he was a VERY perceptive guy from months of reading his posts - good job!). And sharkman, I did indeed consider at the XPA-5 also (another great amp at a terrific price), but with the XPR's performance and quality compared to the Parasound (pretty much on par it appears), and for just a bit more money than the XPA, and a WHOLE LOT less than the Parasound Halo A51, I just couldn't resist. Seriously, I can't imagine a greater bargain in the high performance audio world - what a great multi-channel amp this is! I'm getting anxious to get this system all together soon in its final form too, along with the upgraded center channel speaker (JBL LC2 now in residence, but not yet hooked up), but the wait is half the fun, right? Interesting, thanks for your thoughts. It appears you have come to the same conclusion that others have. Enjoy! |
|
|
|
Post by sharkman on Jan 7, 2013 0:39:21 GMT -5
I think that you're actually referring to Dr. Floyd Toole? I had the opportunity to spend hours listening to him lecture at CEDIA EXPO. Amazing experience. He made a remark about how most amps that are being installed in home theaters don't average very high (like, 150WPC), and how often clipping must happen. Bob Carver used to mention the snip of a pair of scissors and something about 24 200 watt amps not being able to recreate it without clipping. 4800 watts and it still wasn't enough. |
|
|
|
Post by Poodleluvr on Jan 7, 2013 9:30:35 GMT -5
Did Mr. Carver happen to mention how much wattage is needed to recreate the sound of a fart without the amplifier clipping?
|
|
|
|
Post by sharkman on Jan 7, 2013 10:27:02 GMT -5
Did Mr. Carver happen to mention how much wattage is needed to recreate the sound of a fart without the amplifier clipping?
Apparently you've never heard of the legend. I don't think he cared for silly questions. www.carversound.com/carver-amplifiers/m-1-5t/Bob Carver visited a famous sound researcher who was attempting to recreate the "snip" of an ordinary pair of scissors. He used no less that TWENTY-FOUR 200-watt amplifiers for playback. Yet when viewed on an oscilloscope it was apparent that the top of that instantaneous transition was being distorted. Believe it or not, he needed more power! It was evident that real-world sound occurs very quickly and requires far more power than ANY current amplifier could produce. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2013 10:45:31 GMT -5
..... Have you ever noticed how great amps don't sound stressed even at very high SPL levels. They don't sound too loud, they maintain amazing clarity as the sound level increases. This is "headroom" that is easy to understand. I think this is what many of the good intentioned folks who often reference speaker sensitivity ratings and then say, wow that will produce xxxdB's of ear-bleeding loudness, don't understand. As I have posted here before and I think it is valid to repeat, most of the time someone hears "ear bleeding levels" they are actually hearing amplifier clipping distortion and mistaking it for excessive volume. I like to use the example that a listener turns up his amp until he perceives ear-bleeding levels. The sound meter reads peaks of 105dB's. Now an amp with far more headroom is placed in the chain. The test mod turns the amp up until the sound is very loud, and then stops the test. He asks the listener what he thought of the sound level. He responds that the sound remained defined and clean and although very loud it was not as loud as with the first amp. In fact a check of the meter showed peaks of 110dB's. The 105dB's with audible distortion were incorrectly perceived by the listener as louder than the clean sound that were actually 5dB's louder at 110dB's. These are example figures but are indicative of actual tests. Clean sound doesn't seem as loud as distorted sound. Have you noticed reviews of the Emo XPA-2 (or now XPR-2) for example where owner's claim the the XPA-2 has superior bass performance than other amps or Emo amps with less power. I always question in my mind if it really has "better bass." Most of these amps all have ruler flat response down to 20Hz. Reproducing a 40Hz tone all of these amps will sound very similar at say 75-80dB's Keep turning the level up and now we have a situation of the weaker amps quickly approaching distortion. Remember those sensitivity ratings we are all so quick to quote are at 1000Hz and that is only at one meter distance! I think more correctly in many cases that the XPA-2 is able to avoid audible distortion in the lowest bass ranges where the most power is required versus a lower powered map that in fact has begun to exhibit some distortion. The XPA-2 or XPR-2 (or XPA/XPR mono blocks) have more bass power. They have superior headroom that is needed for speakers that go very low and need lots of low bass power without distortion. Note that many times these members are pushing power hungry models at high output levels. I would love to see at audioholics, etc. (maybe there is one already) an article that discusses in depth, speaker sensitivity by frequency and actual peak output of amps at peak level as well as RMS/continuous levels. For example, I would like to know with tower speaker X (35-20,000 +/- 3dB's), that has been tested at 1kHz/1 meter to be 89dB's, what is the sensitivity at 50Hz, 100Hz and 200Hz as well as the 89dB's at 1000Hz. A standardized test to measure peak power (if this is possible within pre-determined time/distortion), would be great info to have in this never ending pursuit of the ideal headroom for most speakers at reference levels (I mean very loud with extra dynamic sources). ;D ;D ;D |
|
|
|
Post by Poodleluvr on Jan 7, 2013 10:48:40 GMT -5
A guy named "Bob" or a renowned gentleman who I formerly AND intentionally deduced as "Mister" Carver.
There is only one "silly" poster on this specific board and using a process of elimination, I don't consider it me, although I won't mention any moniker...
|
|
|
|
Post by sharkman on Jan 7, 2013 11:00:52 GMT -5
A guy named "Bob" or a renowned gentleman who I formerly AND intentionally deduced as "Mister" Carver. There is only one "silly" poster on this specific board and using a process of elimination, I don't consider it me, although I won't mention any moniker... You mentioned that you've got a pair of XPR-1's coming, but you never mentioned what speakers they'd be running or the size of the room. Have you got a pair of 20 amp circuits for them, or will you be plugging them into 15 amp circuits? At any rate, take care of that wrist, it must suck to be facing surgery. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2013 11:36:31 GMT -5
I think that you're actually referring to Dr. Floyd Toole? Roadrunner told me he played a lot of pool (along with consuming the customary pitchers of beer) in his younger days. Please excuse his cornfusion. |
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Jan 7, 2013 11:58:01 GMT -5
I think that you're actually referring to Dr. Floyd Toole? Roadrunner told me he played a lot of pool (along with consuming the customary pitchers of beer) in his younger days. Please excuse his cornfusion. I aspire to that level of achievement!! |
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on Jan 7, 2013 12:04:21 GMT -5
..... Have you ever noticed how great amps don't sound stressed even at very high SPL levels. They don't sound too loud, they maintain amazing clarity as the sound level increases. This is "headroom" that is easy to understand. I think this is what many of the good intentioned folks who often reference speaker sensitivity ratings and then say, wow that will produce xxxdB's of ear-bleeding loudness, don't understand. As I have posted here before and I think it is valid to repeat, most of the time someone hears "ear bleeding levels" they are actually hearing amplifier clipping distortion and mistaking it for excessive volume. I like to use the example that a listener turns up his amp until he perceives ear-bleeding levels. The sound meter reads peaks of 105dB's. Now an amp with far more headroom is placed in the chain. The test mod turns the amp up until the sound is very loud, and then stops the test. He asks the listener what he thought of the sound level. He responds that the sound remained defined and clean and although very loud it was not as loud as with the first amp. In fact a check of the meter showed peaks of 110dB's. The 105dB's with audible distortion were incorrectly perceived by the listener as louder than the clean sound that were actually 5dB's louder at 110dB's. These are example figures but are indicative of actual tests. Clean sound doesn't seem as loud as distorted sound. Have you noticed reviews of the Emo XPA-2 (or now XPR-2) for example where owner's claim the the XPA-2 has superior bass performance than other amps or Emo amps with less power. I always question in my mind if it really has "better bass." Most of these amps all have ruler flat response down to 20Hz. Reproducing a 40Hz tone all of these amps will sound very similar at say 75-80dB's Keep turning the level up and now we have a situation of the weaker amps quickly approaching distortion. Remember those sensitivity ratings we are all so quick to quote are at 1000Hz and that is only at one meter distance! I think more correctly in many cases that the XPA-2 is able to avoid audible distortion in the lowest bass ranges where the most power is required versus a lower powered map that in fact has begun to exhibit some distortion. The XPA-2 or XPR-2 (or XPA/XPR mono blocks) have more bass power. They have superior headroom that is needed for speakers that go very low and need lots of low bass power without distortion. Note that many times these members are pushing power hungry models at high output levels. I would love to see at audioholics, etc. (maybe there is one already) an article that discusses in depth, speaker sensitivity by frequency and actual peak output of amps at peak level as well as RMS/continuous levels. For example, I would like to know with tower speaker X (35-20,000 +/- 3dB's), that has been tested at 1kHz/1 meter to be 89dB's, what is the sensitivity at 50Hz, 100Hz and 200Hz as well as the 89dB's at 1000Hz. A standardized test to measure peak power (if this is possible within pre-determined time/distortion), would be great info to have in this never ending pursuit of the ideal headroom for most speakers at reference levels (I mean very loud with extra dynamic sources). ;D ;D ;D I agree - what many people think of as "too loud" is really "too much distortion." The distortion is what provides us a cue that something is being strained, i.e., in the case of a volume knob that it is turned too high. It's the same as if we talk in a normal volume versus screaming at the top of our lungs - our voice gets distorted. With women, even more so. ;D With truly clean and sufficient power that provides headroom for realistic dynamics of music, it's just as Chuckie said - the same SPL from a powerful amp will not sound as loud as from using an underpowered amp because the latter will introduce distortion into the sound thus giving our brain a cue that something is being strained which equates to being too loud. It's similar to driving a solidly built, soundproof car at 100 mph versus a cheap compact at the same speed. The soundproof car makes you think you are driving 50 mph and the compact car makes you think you may break the sound barrier soon, even though both are going the same speed. |
|
|
|
Post by The Mad Norseman on Jan 7, 2013 13:52:33 GMT -5
chuckienut typed:
"Clean sound doesn't seem as loud as distorted sound".
Exactly! - even though the SPLs may read exactly the same, on the same piece of music (for example).
More power = less listening fatigue. That fatigue is usually not understood to really signify clipping, or loudspeaker distortion when that speaker has been called upon to reproduce sounds and SPLs it simply can't with the power allotted.
|
|
|
|
Post by sharkman on Jan 7, 2013 14:04:34 GMT -5
I first experienced that with an old Adcom amp I had. I watch the reaction now when certain members of my family visit. They have always been of the "it's too loud" variety, but with my current system they never say that but say how good it sounds.
|
|
|
|
Post by Poodleluvr on Jan 7, 2013 14:42:51 GMT -5
A guy named "Bob" or a renowned gentleman who I formerly AND intentionally deduced as "Mister" Carver. There is only one "silly" poster on this specific board and using a process of elimination, I don't consider it me, although I won't mention any moniker... You mentioned that you've got a pair of XPR-1's coming, but you never mentioned what speakers they'd be running or the size of the room. Have you got a pair of 20 amp circuits for them, or will you be plugging them into 15 amp circuits? At any rate, take care of that wrist, it must suck to be facing surgery. A custom home.-- Two 200 amp service panels in the garage. Nothing under 20 amp breakers in the panel. Also have a 50 amp 220 line going to screen porch to 50 amp GFCI breaker for 500 gallon hot tub with home built on top of crawl space. Living room by itself is 24' X27'.-- Living room is big enough to park two cars in there and is open to the kitchen and dining/hearth room. Living room ceiling is 12' double tray to 16' in height. And, I'm stoked!!!: From: Emotiva Audio <orders@emotiva.com> Date: January 7, 2013, To: Poodleluvr Subject: Shipping confirmation (Order #XXXXX) Dear Poodleluvr, All of the items from order #XXXXX have now been shipped: 2x XPR-1 | 1,000W Mono The shipment was sent via FedEx to: Poodleluvr United States Tracking #: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX *Please allow some time for the status of the shipment to correctly display at the above address. Should you have any questions or require any assistance, please contact Customer Service customerservice@emotiva.com or 877-EMO-TECH (toll free). |
|
|
|
Post by The Mad Norseman on Jan 7, 2013 18:58:30 GMT -5
VERY nice!
Be sure to post your full impressions once all that new gear is hooked up and run through its paces!
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Jan 7, 2013 20:07:42 GMT -5
Hang on. Isn't there something strange going on here with the scissor snipping question. I think that seems to point to how fast an amp can produce a current. Not necessarily power. I mean how loud is the loudest bit of a scissor snipping. If an amp can produce that loudest bit, then it comes down to the speed doesn't it. If the loudest microdynamic peak is 105 db then if the amp can produce a 105 db at 0.1% THD wouldn't it be adequate? It seems to me it's the speed that it's pointing out.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Jan 7, 2013 20:40:46 GMT -5
Hang on. Isn't there something strange going on here with the scissor snipping question. I think that seems to point to how fast an amp can produce a current. Not necessarily power. I mean how loud is the loudest bit of a scissor snipping. If an amp can produce that loudest bit, then it comes down to the speed doesn't it. If the loudest microdynamic peak is 105 db then if the amp can produce a 105 db at 0.1% THD wouldn't it be adequate? It seems to me it's the speed that it's pointing out. It is speed, it requires a lot of power to accelerate the speaker cone fast enough. Not very far, but very fast. Cheers Gary |
|
