HAS ANYONE OWNED OR LISTENED TO:

[cgolf]

Mar 13, 2013 13:05:50 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

Mar 13, 2013 12:20:14 GMT -5 cgolf said:

I just got back from another listening session (PSB, Paradigm, Goldern Ear, DynaAudio) and although I haven't decided on speakers yet, I have come to these 3 conclusions:

1. When I read posts from those who have gone through this exercise, I admire/wonder about them because so many times they will post and go on and on about all the big or subtle differences and nuances that they hear with all the different speakers they listen to.

I say this because..............

2. I have listened to a number of different speakers and quite honestly, they all sound pretty much the same. Of course, I haven't listened to every pair one right after the other. Usually it's been hours or miles or days apart. Sure, one set may have a little better or tighter or stronger this or that, but overall, nothing huge. At least to my ears.

3. I'm tired of researching, looking, searching, driving, thinking, wondering, comparing and trying to find that "one set of speakers" that will sound so much better than the rest.

So now that I have all that off my chest, I wonder what's next. I haven't heard enough "difference" yet from these other speakers from my current Axioms that would get me to pay double for a set of new speakers over what the Axioms cost today. True, there are alot of other speakers I haven't heard and probably won't hear because they are ID or there aren't dealers local that sell them.

This speaker search is making me thirsty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

My main exposure to listening to a lot of different speakers was attending the T.H.E. audio show the past couple of years. I had the same overall experience you did, that most of the stuff sounded pretty much the same and pretty soon I got tired of listening to everything. A few speakers stood out to me - some because they sounded bad and some because they sounded good. The ones that sounded bad to me were either harsh or nasal - very boxy. I tried to think of exactly what impressed me about the good speakers - what separated them from the others. I'd have to say that they sounded "effortless." Like the speaker disappeared and I had a window to the actual performance and I wasn't listening to a box. It wasn't just the accuracy or detail, but the dynamics as well. I guess I keep coming back to "effortless" as the main description for what really impresses me with a system.

Now in your case, even though everything is sounding pretty much the same and you are getting tired of looking, you know that you need to buy something no matter what. ;D

Yep, it's like there's this little "axiom" on my right shoulder telling me "you don't need to buy. Nothing will sound any better than what you already have".... BUT I am bound & determined to buy something and SOON!! ;D

Going to a trade show would be great but I don't know of anything closeby anytime soon. And part of my problem is I don't really know what speakers or even sound I'm looking for exactly. I do know that my drive right now is to find how much "better" SQ I could get for about double what these Axioms cost today. I know what they will do so I want to know what an extra $1500 + or - a few $$ will get me.

My pick right now are the Ascend Acoustic towers with the RAAL tweeter but I haven't heard them so it's the blind leading the confused!! ;D

[garbulky]

Well owning the m80's. This is my nitpicks :
The tweeter at times can be...not so much bright....but the sound can be slightly unnatural. As in if you think about it and say, does this sound exactly like such an instrument was playing in my room...not QUITE. A good reproduction but not the instrument. Also at times when there's a lot going on it can sound congested even when the volume isn't necessarily high. Maybe that's the mid-range woofers.
The speaker itself isn't a point source. You can tell at times when the bass starts off at the floor and then goes higher for the tweeters.
There's also some harshness as you pump up the volume.
Depth could be a bit better. In fact that's my main goal is more depth.
The bass is fantastic. No complaints there Only nitpick is the slightest lack in a sense of speed.
Also if you listen closely to a the woofers each set doesn't reproduce the exact same sound though it may be engineered that way.
And last, it may have been my imagination but I feel that as time goes on, the axioms don't perform quite as well as when they are new.
Of course, my experience with congestion, speed, dynamics etc could be due to using an underpowered amp for the m80's...they do dip low in impedance...

And the pros: Powerful dynamics. Pinpoint imaging. bass extension. Beautiful vocal reproduction.

[cgolf]

Well put gar. Some of the things you mentioned may be what's going on in my head. Yes, bass is strong and well defined. Mids and uppers yes & no sometimes depending on what's being processed. Of course that would be true with any speakers.

The Paradigm Studio 100s I heard today were probably the best with dynamics, clarity, detail and exactness. What bothered me about those was the female vocals. Could have been the CD or transport, but she was not that clear, precise or crisp. Actually a bit muffled.

I really liked the PSBs I heard the other day and they were the new tower Ts so there are a number of speakers up from those just in the PSB line. However, I just cringe to have to give my $$ to a B&M store thinking about all the markups!!

Need to find some good used ones online..... ;D

[monkumonku]

Mar 13, 2013 14:26:23 GMT -5 cgolf said:

Mar 13, 2013 13:05:50 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

My main exposure to listening to a lot of different speakers was attending the T.H.E. audio show the past couple of years. I had the same overall experience you did, that most of the stuff sounded pretty much the same and pretty soon I got tired of listening to everything. A few speakers stood out to me - some because they sounded bad and some because they sounded good. The ones that sounded bad to me were either harsh or nasal - very boxy. I tried to think of exactly what impressed me about the good speakers - what separated them from the others. I'd have to say that they sounded "effortless." Like the speaker disappeared and I had a window to the actual performance and I wasn't listening to a box. It wasn't just the accuracy or detail, but the dynamics as well. I guess I keep coming back to "effortless" as the main description for what really impresses me with a system.

Now in your case, even though everything is sounding pretty much the same and you are getting tired of looking, you know that you need to buy something no matter what. ;D

Yep, it's like there's this little "axiom" on my right shoulder telling me "you don't need to buy. Nothing will sound any better than what you already have".... BUT I am bound & determined to buy something and SOON!! ;D

Going to a trade show would be great but I don't know of anything closeby anytime soon. And part of my problem is I don't really know what speakers or even sound I'm looking for exactly. I do know that my drive right now is to find how much "better" SQ I could get for about double what these Axioms cost today. I know what they will do so I want to know what an extra $1500 + or - a few $$ will get me.

My pick right now are the Ascend Acoustic towers with the RAAL tweeter but I haven't heard them so it's the blind leading the confused!! ;D

So lemme ask you a question: what exactly are the reasons you are not happy with your present speakers? Please make two columns on a piece of paper and then on the left side write the reasons that pertain to the actual performance of the speaker and on the right side write the reasons that have to do with your brain wanting something different. Label the top of each column accordingly.

Then, take the blank left column and throw it away and then relabel the top of the right column.

[gmeyer]

lonestaraudiofest.com/registration.html May 3-5th

[Deleted]

>> Of course, my experience with congestion, speed, dynamics etc could be due to using an underpowered amp for the m80's...they do dip low in impedance... <<

Ummm, you do realize that you have attenuated your output by up to 12db, right? If you think that the problem with your current sound is not enough grunt from the amp, why not try removing the attenuators and see how it sounds? Or, try to borrow a beefier amp from a friend or friendly dealer and determine if that is the source of your dissatisfaction.

As far as choosing speakers, I have always been lucky enough to know almost immediately if a new speaker was a big step up from what I had on-hand. I usually sat down with my current rig and picked out 3-4 albums that I really knew and liked. Then I spent several hours listening intently to those albums unitl they were burned into my memory.

I then took those same albums with me to the audio store and had a go with them with different speakers in my price range and using gear that was on-par with what I had at-home. I've even gone so far as to bring my speakers, amp, preamp, and source device with me for the auditioning. I realize that this is a bit of a hassle, but I do not buy new speakers every 2-3 years, I usually keep them for at least 5-10 years. To me, it's worth the extra hassle cuz I'm gonna be living with them for a long time.

And the ones I always ended up buying just "spoke" to me almost immediately - my ears and brain said "Those are the ONES, mate!!" You'll *know* it when you hear it. If your ears and brain do not proclaim any to be the ONES, you need to keep on auditioning other speakers until you find the ONES.

If you are buying from a B&M store, it is then time to solicit an in-home demo just to make sure they sound good in your room with your gear. Most dealers will do this if they believe you to be sincere and if you limit the in-home demo to a Sunday when they are usually closed - pick 'em up Sat. nite and return them Mon. morning when the store opens. If you have already demo'd them with your gear, the chances are *very* good that they will sound fine in your room. If not, you probably need to work on the room a bit....

-RW-

[garbulky]

Mar 13, 2013 17:55:37 GMT -5 @rlw said:

>> Of course, my experience with congestion, speed, dynamics etc could be due to using an underpowered amp for the m80's...they do dip low in impedance... <<

Ummm, you do realize that you have attenuated your output by up to 12db, right? If you think that the problem with your current sound is not enough grunt from the amp, why not try removing the attenuators and see how it sounds? Or, try to borrow a beefier amp from a friend or friendly dealer and determine if that is the source of your dissatisfaction.
-RW-

Rw, I've tried both ways with the attenuators. Without attenuation there is slightly more immediate snap to a quick treble transient. But the congestion and dynamics improved and sounded more lifelike with the attenuators. Dynamics in the voices were much better. It's hard to explain. But before, even though the dynamics were powerful they didn't feel as real. I prefer the sound of the attenuation route but would prefer not to use it if I had a choice (more direct path).
I really want to audition more powerful amps. Unfortunately there aren't many audio dealers in town and Im not comfortable with the few that there are to audition an amp.

[garbulky]

Mar 13, 2013 14:43:23 GMT -5 cgolf said:

Well put gar. Some of the things you mentioned may be what's going on in my head. Yes, bass is strong and well defined. Mids and uppers yes & no sometimes depending on what's being processed. Of course that would be true with any speakers.

The Paradigm Studio 100s I heard today were probably the best with dynamics, clarity, detail and exactness. What bothered me about those was the female vocals. Could have been the CD or transport, but she was not that clear, precise or crisp. Actually a bit muffled.

I really liked the PSBs I heard the other day and they were the new tower Ts so there are a number of speakers up from those just in the PSB line. However, I just cringe to have to give my $$ to a B&M store thinking about all the markups!!

Need to find some good used ones online..... ;D

Yes, the m80's are surprising because the congestion only happens in certain recordings! Usually jazz, acoustc, and intimate stuff are clear as a bell. I also have the aggravation that speakers are never PERFECTLY placed with toe in. ;D Every time I make some small changes, I notice an improvement. Sometimes the improvements are very big almost like I bought a new DAC/ veil lifted etc.

[cgolf]

Mar 13, 2013 17:15:33 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

Mar 13, 2013 14:26:23 GMT -5 cgolf said:

Yep, it's like there's this little "axiom" on my right shoulder telling me "you don't need to buy. Nothing will sound any better than what you already have".... BUT I am bound & determined to buy something and SOON!! ;D

Going to a trade show would be great but I don't know of anything closeby anytime soon. And part of my problem is I don't really know what speakers or even sound I'm looking for exactly. I do know that my drive right now is to find how much "better" SQ I could get for about double what these Axioms cost today. I know what they will do so I want to know what an extra $1500 + or - a few $$ will get me.

My pick right now are the Ascend Acoustic towers with the RAAL tweeter but I haven't heard them so it's the blind leading the confused!! ;D

So lemme ask you a question: what exactly are the reasons you are not happy with your present speakers? Please make two columns on a piece of paper and then on the left side write the reasons that pertain to the actual performance of the speaker and on the right side write the reasons that have to do with your brain wanting something different. Label the top of each column accordingly.

Then, take the blank left column and throw it away and then relabel the top of the right column.

I don't need the piece of paper. I know exactly what my driver is. I want to know what I can get for twice the $$ that these Axioms cost today. How much more sound can I get for $1500 more?? ;D

[monkumonku]

Mar 13, 2013 20:24:17 GMT -5 cgolf said:

Mar 13, 2013 17:15:33 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

So lemme ask you a question: what exactly are the reasons you are not happy with your present speakers? Please make two columns on a piece of paper and then on the left side write the reasons that pertain to the actual performance of the speaker and on the right side write the reasons that have to do with your brain wanting something different. Label the top of each column accordingly.

Then, take the blank left column and throw it away and then relabel the top of the right column.

I don't need the piece of paper. I know exactly what my driver is. I want to know what I can get for twice the $$ that these Axioms cost today. How much more sound can I get for $1500 more?? ;D

Well the answer to that question depends on whether you take the red pill or the blue pill. ;D

[cgolf]

I took em both because I figured if one was good, two had to be better regardless of the color. Besides, what the colors meant when when I was taking them may not be the same today ;D

[Cheeku]

Buy some used AV123 X-Statiks

[goat1981]

www.philharmonicaudio.com

Get the Philharmonic 2's or 3's. Can't recommend them enough -- and they are in the $3000-$3500 price range.

My 2's are the closest to 'live' sound that I have ever heard in a speaker. The resolution and soundstage is awesome; and they never become fatiguing. If you can swing it, go for the 3's, as they have a bit better bass extension (though the 2's aren't a slouch in this department).

Dennis Murphy is awesome to work with as well.

[cgolf]

Mar 14, 2013 1:08:11 GMT -5 goat1981 said:

www.philharmonicaudio.com

Get the Philharmonic 2's or 3's. Can't recommend them enough -- and they are in the $3000-$3500 price range.

My 2's are the closest to 'live' sound that I have ever heard in a speaker. The resolution and soundstage is awesome; and they never become fatiguing. If you can swing it, go for the 3's, as they have a bit better bass extension (though the 2's aren't a slouch in this department).

Dennis Murphy is awesome to work with as well.

I have looked at their website and everything I've read has been positive. They were on my list but it seems somewhere I read that they really needed a good amount of breathing room from the rear wall (even more than normal) and I don't have that in my room. I think they came off my list after I read that.

But they do have great reviews, specs, etc.

[regulator]

Mar 13, 2013 12:20:14 GMT -5 cgolf said:

I just got back from another listening session (PSB, Paradigm, Goldern Ear, DynaAudio) and although I haven't decided on speakers yet, I have come to these 3 conclusions:

1. When I read posts from those who have gone through this exercise, I admire/wonder about them because so many times they will post and go on and on about all the big or subtle differences and nuances that they hear with all the different speakers they listen to.

I say this because..............

2. I have listened to a number of different speakers and quite honestly, they all sound pretty much the same. Of course, I haven't listened to every pair one right after the other. Usually it's been hours or miles or days apart. Sure, one set may have a little better or tighter or stronger this or that, but overall, nothing huge. At least to my ears.

3. I'm tired of researching, looking, searching, driving, thinking, wondering, comparing and trying to find that "one set of speakers" that will sound so much better than the rest.

So now that I have all that off my chest, I wonder what's next. I haven't heard enough "difference" yet from these other speakers from my current Axioms that would get me to pay double for a set of new speakers over what the Axioms cost today. True, there are alot of other speakers I haven't heard and probably won't hear because they are ID or there aren't dealers local that sell them.

This speaker search is making me thirsty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

Glad to hear I am not the only one. When I listen to speakers, I guess my first instinct is to listen to the clarity and bass. Otherwise when guys go into detail on all the different variances they hear, it gets lost on me.
Anyway, I am constantly impressed with PSB everytime I hear them at the RMAF. They have become my 'next' speaker in my mind once I sell my Rockets. OTOH, I am very intrigued about the Ascends. I just got a pair of Ascend CBM-170se for my computer set up and I am very impressed. Everything I read about the Towers are positive and I really like how they look. The bamboo cabinet to me, is a huge plus.
Good luck in your decision making, it will be interesting what you end up choosing.

[cgolf]

Mar 14, 2013 10:32:20 GMT -5 regulator said:

Mar 13, 2013 12:20:14 GMT -5 cgolf said:

I just got back from another listening session (PSB, Paradigm, Goldern Ear, DynaAudio) and although I haven't decided on speakers yet, I have come to these 3 conclusions:

1. When I read posts from those who have gone through this exercise, I admire/wonder about them because so many times they will post and go on and on about all the big or subtle differences and nuances that they hear with all the different speakers they listen to.

I say this because..............

2. I have listened to a number of different speakers and quite honestly, they all sound pretty much the same. Of course, I haven't listened to every pair one right after the other. Usually it's been hours or miles or days apart. Sure, one set may have a little better or tighter or stronger this or that, but overall, nothing huge. At least to my ears.

3. I'm tired of researching, looking, searching, driving, thinking, wondering, comparing and trying to find that "one set of speakers" that will sound so much better than the rest.

So now that I have all that off my chest, I wonder what's next. I haven't heard enough "difference" yet from these other speakers from my current Axioms that would get me to pay double for a set of new speakers over what the Axioms cost today. True, there are alot of other speakers I haven't heard and probably won't hear because they are ID or there aren't dealers local that sell them.

This speaker search is making me thirsty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

Glad to hear I am not the only one. When I listen to speakers, I guess my first instinct is to listen to the clarity and bass. Otherwise when guys go into detail on all the different variances they hear, it gets lost on me.
Anyway, I am constantly impressed with PSB everytime I hear them at the RMAF. They have become my 'next' speaker in my mind once I sell my Rockets. OTOH, I am very intrigued about the Ascends. I just got a pair of Ascend CBM-170se for my computer set up and I am very impressed. Everything I read about the Towers are positive and I really like how they look. The bamboo cabinet to me, is a huge plus.
Good luck in your decision making, it will be interesting what you end up choosing.

What I've heard have all sounded pretty good. I wasn't real impressed with the Tritons but that could have been the room, etc. Haven't heard the Ascends but the PSB Ts sounded the best so far.

At this point, I have pretty much settled on either PSB T, T2 which is a whole lot more $$$. or the Ascend towers, probably with the RAAL. Of course all this could change!! ;D

[goat1981]

Mar 14, 2013 4:56:46 GMT -5 cgolf said:

Mar 14, 2013 1:08:11 GMT -5 goat1981 said:

www.philharmonicaudio.com

Get the Philharmonic 2's or 3's. Can't recommend them enough -- and they are in the $3000-$3500 price range.

My 2's are the closest to 'live' sound that I have ever heard in a speaker. The resolution and soundstage is awesome; and they never become fatiguing. If you can swing it, go for the 3's, as they have a bit better bass extension (though the 2's aren't a slouch in this department).

Dennis Murphy is awesome to work with as well.

I have looked at their website and everything I've read has been positive. They were on my list but it seems somewhere I read that they really needed a good amount of breathing room from the rear wall (even more than normal) and I don't have that in my room. I think they came off my list after I read that.

But they do have great reviews, specs, etc.

Have you talked with Dennis about this? He may have more insight than I do. I have seen pictures of people who enjoy their Philharmonic setups with the speakers fairly close to the back wall. You should e-mail him.

Before I moved, my sound room was quite small (10'w by 16'l), and my speakers sounded great in there even though they didn't have adequate room to breathe. However, they were still a couple feet from the rear wall.

Good luck with your search!

[garbulky]

I'm recommending a xda-2->XPA-1 L->Philharmonic 2's for my friends room. Hopefully I get to hear it in a few months.

[nessjoel]

While I've never listened to the q700's or q900's, I've had the q500's for almost a year now and they have been fantastic. A little light on the bass but I think that was intentional with the 500's. the crown jewel of KEF is their uniQ driver. It has some neat properties. Being that its coaxial, the hf and mids eminate from the exact same spot, I don't know the term for it, but it sounds coherent. Also, the wave guide on the tweeter disperses the high frequency sounds uniformly and wider. I can sit 30 to 40 degrees offset from center and I'm not missing any of the sound. These can make great home theater speakers but are great for stereo music. They are detailed and crisp without being harsh. The way the two active drivers are setup is where the top two driver are for the mid; the second driver from the top is passive for the midrange driver of the uniQ. After that is the active bass driver followed by the passive woofer. No port holes just diaphragms. The bass is articulate and not thumpy. Now with the larger drivers on the two you are looking at that would add more oomph. Plus the q900's handle more power and are more efficient than the q500's (and the 500's can get really loud). I don't have any experience with hifi speakers beyond what I have now and the monitor audio b2's I had. However, in almost every category, the KEF speakers meet and often exceed my expectations.

[jerrin]

If you have a fair amount of room and you are willing to stretch $100-200, I'd recommend you test out a used pair of LS6s. Better in most every area, especially bass, mids, and speed.

I used to have Axioms, Ascends, Rockets, and even Emotiva, and to me, the LS series blow them all out of the water.