geebo
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"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
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Post by geebo on Feb 13, 2015 8:12:06 GMT -5
with either 30x2 or 35x2 in 'A' AND a pair of 450va transformers for a stereo pair, and given 'A' amps low efficiency of anywhere SOUTH of maybe 35% to as low as single digits, I'm sorry, but 18ga is MINIMAL, for a power cord, IMO. Even a 15 amp service is fed by 14ga while a 20amp service must be 12 or better. If ANYONE has a Kill-A-Watt and can measure this amps IDLE current draw, please post with number. Power Factor would be nice, too, but not a deal breaker if not below say…..0.8 or so. And not even than, really. And if ANYONE could please CRANK IT UP for 30 minutes or so and FEEL the plug or IEC end of the cord, please also post if you can detect any warmth. I mean play it Loud. NO…..LOUDER. Really dip into the power. If I had gone thru with 2 pair of these to biamp my panels, I'd have found out about those cords and replaced them with 14ga. Nothing WACKY, but Really, I've got Zip Cord to lamps which is 18ga. I'm not talking some crazy expensive 'designer' cable, either. The Pangea would be the OUTER limit of my budget and I might even be tempted to go DIY. With all due respect, Emotiva doesn't go by your opinion when it comes to choosing a power cord for their products. And there is no way an XPA-1L is going to draw 15 amps. Dark Ranger posted idle currents in the very first post of this thread. If you want a bigger cord, just buy one. I got some from Emotiva. And there is always this route: www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10228&cs_id=1022801&p_id=5292&seq=1&format=2
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Post by leonski on Feb 13, 2015 14:11:05 GMT -5
Good and thanks. I see the current draw at idle in 'A' as 2.3 amps. I'd have expected a LITTLE higher. Also, the OP noted a 'click' and drop in current after a few idle minutes. I'm puzzled.
But I'll stand by wanting a somewhat larger cord to the amp. If I were doing a retro, I'd start and finish at 14ga.
Sure, why not Monoprice? A few others out there would work, too, but certainly not some of the megabuck stuff I've seen. DIY is my bias, for something as simple as a cord.
And sure, I'm not on the EMO design team, so they don't listen to me.
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Post by Dark Ranger on Feb 13, 2015 16:18:04 GMT -5
Also, the OP noted a 'click' and drop in current after a few idle minutes. I'm puzzled. Note the date of those posts. This issue affected only the initial production units and was quickly resolved. See my post on page 2 of this thread with an explanation from Lonnie. My three XPA-1L amps have been working flawlessly following the replacement program in early 2013. If I can just brag on these amps for a moment, I still pinch myself sometimes because this product ticks all the boxes for me as a perfect amplifier. Never did I dream I'd actually own something like this. When the XPA-1L was first unveiled during Emofest 2012, I about wet myself because the dream was suddenly within reach. The bumpy product launch was unfortunate, but all of that is under the bridge. I still think this is one of the best amplifiers that Emotiva ever made. It is, near-as-makes-no-difference, perfectly transparent with tons of headroom. I still love 'em, and I can honestly say that, since 2013, they've quelled any desire to look at other amps for LCR. No plans to upgrade for a very long time. Emotiva really makes dreams come true.
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Post by Dark Ranger on Feb 13, 2015 17:14:18 GMT -5
I just pulled the trigger on four of the Emotiva X-IEC shielded 12-gauge power cables. Three for the XPA-1L amps and one for my Fusion 8100. The one and only reason I'm doing this is to see if I can further reduce the measurable and audible noise/hum in my system. I don't own fancy measurement equipment, but I do have a SPL meter. Just like with the upgrade to Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects, I'll measure any audible drop in noise/hum to validate what I hear (if anything). I was hemming and hawing on the power cable purchase. However, there's nothing else I really need to buy. The speakers and electronics are done, and since I can't treat the room any further, I've just been spending money on accessories (recently installed bass shakers) and source material. If I cannot tell any improvements with these power cables, well, at least my system will have more bling and I continue to support Emotiva with my hard-earned money.
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geebo
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"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,181
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Post by geebo on Feb 13, 2015 17:53:54 GMT -5
I just pulled the trigger on four of the Emotiva X-IEC shielded 12-gauge power cables. Three for the XPA-1L amps and one for my Fusion 8100. The one and only reason I'm doing this is to see if I can further reduce the measurable and audible noise/hum in my system. I don't own fancy measurement equipment, but I do have a SPL meter. Just like with the upgrade to Blue Jeans LC-1 interconnects, I'll measure any audible drop in noise/hum to validate what I hear (if anything). I was hemming and hawing on the power cable purchase. However, there's nothing else I really need to buy. The speakers and electronics are done, and since I can't treat the room any further, I've just been spending money on accessories (recently installed bass shakers) and source material. If I cannot tell any improvements with these power cables, well, at least my system will have more bling and I continue to support Emotiva with my hard-earned money. Is it something a CMX-2 might remedy?
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Post by leonski on Feb 13, 2015 18:55:37 GMT -5
You have to be careful with power conditioning for amplifiers. ANY current limiting will be reflected in dynamic problems. The amp may seem 'lifeless'. This is what happened with my Rotel RB1070 which was only marginal with my panels when plugged into a wall and hopeless when plugged into the 'high current' outlets of my Panamax. And not the entry end of Panamax, either. This was the TOP dog when I bought it and includes a 400va isolation transformer which is perfect for Digital and other low current items.
My Carver Cube (M400t) was OK with power conditioning but STILL would flicker the lights in the entire HOUSE in time to the music when pushed to the wall. And since the amp hardly ran even warm under ANY conditions (redline into 4 ohm Magnepans, even) I don't know where the power was going.
The Break-In brigade would have you wait maybe 50 hours of use AFTER install of the new cordage before making any sonic judgements. I think you should notice something almost instantly, IF.
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Post by leonski on Feb 13, 2015 18:59:09 GMT -5
I generally associate 'click's with relays. It is possible the initial run of the amp had some kind of time delay relay installed which turned the output OFF at some fixed interval AFTER it was de energized thru not being used. I'd have to see the sketch-0-matic to try to figure it out.
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geebo
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"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,181
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Post by geebo on Feb 13, 2015 19:02:51 GMT -5
You have to be careful with power conditioning for amplifiers. ANY current limiting will be reflected in dynamic problems. The amp may seem 'lifeless'. This is what happened with my Rotel RB1070 which was only marginal with my panels when plugged into a wall and hopeless when plugged into the 'high current' outlets of my Panamax. And not the entry end of Panamax, either. This was the TOP dog when I bought it and includes a 400va isolation transformer which is perfect for Digital and other low current items. My Carver Cube (M400t) was OK with power conditioning but STILL would flicker the lights in the entire HOUSE in time to the music when pushed to the wall. And since the amp hardly ran even warm under ANY conditions (redline into 4 ohm Magnepans, even) I don't know where the power was going. The Break-In brigade would have you wait maybe 50 hours of use AFTER install of the new cordage before making any sonic judgements. I think you should notice something almost instantly, IF. The CMX-2 was designed by Emotiva to specifically not limit current but to remove any DC offset (which can create noise in transformers) that might be present in your AC line. It's not a surge device.
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Post by leonski on Feb 13, 2015 21:10:04 GMT -5
Gee, I have 1200$ worth of Panamax and the High Current outlets STILL kill amps. I see from the internals pic that the cmx2 has minimal circuitry and NO, I don't see anything I'd identify as a MOV (surge/spike device) but I'm not going to try it. My opinion would be if you CAN, to get WHOLE HOUSE surge protection installed. Leave the amps on exclusive circuit(s) and the rest of the electronics, including ANY telephone and Coax, thru a surge protector. If you live where lightning is common and ZAPS frequent, than this advice goes DOUBLE. Florida? Texas? Gulf Coast? Most of the Midwest (tornado alley) You get the drift. I can build a DC blocker for about 15$ using retail parts from what was ONCE the local RadioShack. IIRC, all you need are high current DIODES, proper voltage rated CAPS and an enclosure with In/ Out plugs.
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geebo
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"Too bad that all the people who know how to run the country are driving taxicabs and cutting hair"
Posts: 24,181
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Post by geebo on Feb 13, 2015 21:48:56 GMT -5
Gee, I have 1200$ worth of Panamax and the High Current outlets STILL kill amps. I see from the internals pic that the cmx2 has minimal circuitry and NO, I don't see anything I'd identify as a MOV (surge/spike device) but I'm not going to try it. My opinion would be if you CAN, to get WHOLE HOUSE surge protection installed. Leave the amps on exclusive circuit(s) and the rest of the electronics, including ANY telephone and Coax, thru a surge protector. If you live where lightning is common and ZAPS frequent, than this advice goes DOUBLE. Florida? Texas? Gulf Coast? Most of the Midwest (tornado alley) You get the drift. I can build a DC blocker for about 15$ using retail parts from what was ONCE the local RadioShack. IIRC, all you need are high current DIODES, proper voltage rated CAPS and an enclosure with In/ Out plugs. Glad you can build a CMX-2 for $15. Not everyone can or wants to. It doesn't mean it won't benefit some users.
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Post by leonski on Feb 13, 2015 23:20:14 GMT -5
What I CAN build is a simple DC blocker. Not a complete power conditioner. Though if room, MOVs can be added to most any CHEAP outlet strip for <1$ each. I'd add them in sets of 3. Hot/Neutral Hot/Ground and Ground/Neutral Each additional set adds capacity in the form of 'joules' of energy which can be absorbed. Here is an easy to follow article from Elliot Sound Products about DC blockers and some associated concerns. Simple Sketch-O-Matic is easy to follow. But, I'd caution anyone NOT familiar with working around 118vac house current to NOT attempt this without some help from someone with experience. sound.westhost.com/articles/xfmr-dc.htmWe're talking 3 different things here: 1. DC on the mains power 2. RF / EMI riding in on the power and 3. SURGE protection Someone with better knowledge can correct this, but I'd say that an ISOLATION transformer should block DC as well, at the possible expense of THAT transformer humming!
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Post by Dark Ranger on Feb 14, 2015 0:29:45 GMT -5
Is it something a CMX-2 might remedy? Good suggestion. In this case, I don't have an issue with DC and the power coming from the wall. The run from my power conditioner to the amp is also clean. With only the amp turned on, it's dead quiet. The noise/hum I have happens only over unbalanced RCA when the preamp is switched on, the balanced XLR run is completely silent. I don't have much space behind my equipment rack nor do I have the luxury of properly routing power cables and interconnects away from each other. I believe the noise/hum is being caused from all of the cables being so close together behind the rack. Low voltage interconnects are laying atop and near power cables and speaker cables. I've cleaned things up the best I can, but it's difficult to do things right. Because I had noticeable improvements from swapping out most of the interconnects with Blue Jeans LC-1 (double shielded), it would seem to confirm that EMI from the rat's nest is to blame. It's not like a nasty ground loop, but I was able to hear the hum and noise from the MLP before the interconnect upgrade. Now I can't hear it from the MLP, I have to move closer to the speakers. It's still somewhat annoying, so if I can reduce it further, I'll be happy. As an aside, I do live in Florida and have whole-house surge protection. My equipment is divided between two separate 15 amp circuits. Although power conditioning is in place to protect the equipment from normal line issues (my area is plagued with power anomalies during the summer), the equipment is unplugged from the wall during a thunderstorm. Here in Florida, that is pretty much a daily occurrence during the summer months.
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Post by leonski on Feb 14, 2015 3:14:51 GMT -5
I lived in N.Miami for a couple years back in the early 70s. I also went to USF in Tampa. And YES, the 'daily thunderstorm' is real and FPL (Florida Flicker and Flash) does have real issues with lightning strikes and such. We had an electrical problem in my house. I touched a lamp (conductive part) while I was standing on the TERRAZO floor. "bout killed me.
Are BOTH your 15amp circuits from the SAME side of the panel? That MIGHT be part of the issue, if they are not.
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Post by Dark Ranger on Feb 14, 2015 13:32:01 GMT -5
The two circuits are not on the same side of the panel, they are split. But again, it's not a ground loop, nor do I have a problem with noisy power in general. It's just lots of EMI behind the rack from a snake pit of cables.
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Post by leonski on Feb 14, 2015 16:16:43 GMT -5
The only reason I bring that up is that the voltage difference between the 2 'hots' can be expressed thru your audio gear. And yes, I've had lots of wires all tangled up and HATE it. I use optical now instead of single ended in a couple places which helps lots and I use BlueJeans LC-1 which is well shielded.
As an experiment, you MIGHT try pluggin everything into ONE circuit or the other and see if that mitigates the hum?
I'll admit to having an exceptional run of luck with LACK of hum/buzz/hiss problems with my stereo extending back for maybe 40 years!
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Post by Dark Ranger on Feb 26, 2015 0:59:14 GMT -5
Well, good news and bad news. First off, I ordered four (4) X-Series IEC power cables from Emotiva and they arrived last Friday. However, for several reasons, I actually just finished installing them tonight. One would think it wouldn't take but a few minutes to swap power cables, but no, in my setup it took about an hour. Actually, it took about 2 hours if you count the removal and adjustment of an amplifier. One of my XPA-1Ls had over-tightened heatsink screws since Day 1, but it's an absolute chore to pull it out and fix it. Tonight I finally bit the bullet. All fixed and no more clicks as the amp warms up and cools down. So the good news is that the new cables look nice and beefy. Great build quality from outward appearance (I didn't disassemble the connectors to see inside). Anyway, they fit well and look great. Now the bad news: no measurable or audible improvement with the noise. I took several measurements before and after with certain configurations. In most cases, there was no change at all. In a few cases, it was actually worse after the cable upgrade. I'm going to write that off to the act of moving lots of cables around behind the rack. Perhaps some of the ICs are now slightly closer to speaker cables or the unshielded power cables coming into the power conditioners. I'm going to try a couple of other things this weekend as a last-ditch effort, but I may just have to live with the noise (just under 40 dBA). At least it's only audible when the room fan is turned off (and it's rarely turned off). It's also possible that the Fusion preamp is sending some noise to the amps. I'm kinda bummed though after dropping $250. Would have been nice to see a measurable drop, even a couple dB, with noise output. Oh well. It was an interesting experiment, and I'm always happy to give Big Dan more of my cash. To ease my sorrow, I think I'll cue up some Melody Gardot and relax for a bit before turning in early.
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Post by leonski on Feb 26, 2015 3:43:20 GMT -5
Do you think the noise is coming IN via the power cord? If so, find some Belden 19364 (14ga.) or 83803 (12ga.) which are BOTH fully shielded. When you build your own cables, just connect the shield to the ground ONLY at the wall plug side. The 83803 is fairly pricey, but ALL teflon insulated and each strand is tinned. The 19364 is a 'standard' cable in several DIY formulations and has been so for 2 decades. My amps come with 16ga standard and I'm going to build a pair of new cables. The 83803 is fairly stiff and I don't need that capacity, so I'm going to 'cheap out' and get a more flexible cable at the same time. Marinco connectors are reasonably priced as are a few offerings from Leviton and others. Search around for those and post back if you find anything of interest.
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 18, 2015 17:25:25 GMT -5
Well the XPA-1L's are finally in the system and sounding great. They are installed next to each of the FL and FR speakers, so long RCA interconnects from the USP-1 (5 metres) and short DIY speaker cables (1 metre) as the XSS-1's haven't arrived from Emotiva as yet. I haven't had time to do much 2.1 music listening, but I did a quick 1 x vinyl (Fleetwood Mac) and 1 x CD (Eagles) selection trying both Class A and Class AB. I see (hear) what the guys mean when they say it's hard to pick the difference, they sound so good whichever way the switch is. For movies 5.1 I've only tried DD via the cable box so far, which sounds great although I haven't had the chance to rebalance the system. A task for this weekend, then it's bluray time.
Some early observations for 2.1 music, the first thing I notice is, although it's no higher or wider or deeper, the sound stage reaches out further into the room. Surrounds/envelopes you more than the XPA-5 powering the same speakers in the same locations. The only other change is from short RCA interconnects (500 mm) and long speaker cables (5 metres) to long RCA interconnects (5 metres) and short speaker cables (1 metre). Is it the XPA-1L's or the shorter speaker cables? Might swap back to he longer speaker cables and see if that makes a difference. I suspect not as their impedance was 2 decimal places of an ohm, but costs nothing to back to back test. I'm confident I can also hear the Class A difference particularly in cymbals. But a longer listen might reveal more or less.
Cheers Gary
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Post by foggy1956 on Mar 18, 2015 17:30:35 GMT -5
Well the XPA-1L's are finally in the system and sounding great. They are installed next to each of the FL and FR speakers, so long RCA interconnects from the USP-1 (5 metres) and short DIY speaker cables (1 metre) as the XSS-1's haven't arrived from Emotiva as yet. I haven't had time to do much 2.1 music listening, but I did a quick 1 x vinyl (Fleetwood Mac) and 1 x CD (Eagles) selection trying both Class A and Class AB. I see (hear) what the guys mean when they say it's hard to pick the difference, they sound so good whichever way the switch is. For movies 5.1 I've only tried DD via the cable box so far, which sounds great although I haven't had the chance to rebalance the system. A task for this weekend, then it's bluray time. Cheers Gary Hooked my XPA-1L's up last night
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Mar 18, 2015 19:05:07 GMT -5
Well the XPA-1L's are finally in the system and sounding great. They are installed next to each of the FL and FR speakers, so long RCA interconnects from the USP-1 (5 metres) and short DIY speaker cables (1 metre) as the XSS-1's haven't arrived from Emotiva as yet. I haven't had time to do much 2.1 music listening, but I did a quick 1 x vinyl (Fleetwood Mac) and 1 x CD (Eagles) selection trying both Class A and Class AB. I see (hear) what the guys mean when they say it's hard to pick the difference, they sound so good whichever way the switch is. For movies 5.1 I've only tried DD via the cable box so far, which sounds great although I haven't had the chance to rebalance the system. A task for this weekend, then it's bluray time. Cheers Gary Hooked my XPA-1L's up last night Bam!!! New members!!!! its a double shot MONOBLOCKS day!!! Congratulations and welcome aboard!!
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