fatone
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 7
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Post by fatone on Apr 30, 2013 22:17:02 GMT -5
So I finally have my 12-guage speaker wire, and my cables and should be setting everything up within a week. I will try out the 4520 for a week and then most probably buy the XPA-5 and see if I hear a difference in the SQ. Since I am no audiophile, might not know what to listen for, but will read up on things to be prepared.
I figured the XPA-5 would give me extra channels for future upgrades and if it doesn't need to be used with the 4520, then I will just put it in my bedroom setup.
So much to learn, the Month of May will be quite interesting. I will report back my findings, but will definitely have more questions!
Thanks in advance!
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Post by sergeantynot on May 1, 2013 8:49:09 GMT -5
The reason I recommended you get the 4520 and the XPA-5 from the start is to future-proof yourself should you ever require additional power beyond the 4520's stated 150wpc (8ohm) rating. There are no real reviews out that test what the 4520 is really capable of, especially in the 4ohm region; Denon just publishes it is 4ohm capable. With the XPA-5, you are already guaranteed a power rating to boot, so you would probably never have to worry about power should you acquire new or additional speakers.
Given that the 4520 is also an 11.2 capable receiver (with 9 channels of onboard power), you could also use the XPA to power your mains, and use the remaining 4520 power for surrounds or zone 2/3 speakers.
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Post by bderringer on May 1, 2013 9:18:58 GMT -5
Hi fatone!
I am a neebie here and am most anxious to hear how your set-up finally works out for you as I am on a similar quest. I have a little older Denon 4308CI @ 140 WPC and while it's performance has been good and very dependable for music and home theatre, I've been toying with the idea of adding a separate amplifier to perhaps "enhance" both applications. My home theatre (and music) room is a bit smaller than yours at about 17 x 17 with a bay window configuration at the back of the room with a 10 ft. ceiling and coffered ceiling all around.
At first I was thinking about adding an XPR-5 but the fact that I would need to add a separate 20 amp outlet coupled with the outlay of $1,800 may be cost prohibitive and overkill. Especially with the wife! The reason I was thinking about the XPR-5 was that everything I have read has stated that increased volume is exponential in about a 10 to 1 ratio. My quest is not so much to increase the volume per se, but to perhaps increase the nuances, depth and volume of the reproduced sound.
I must say that $800 and no electrician fees would be stellar if in fact it helps. So I for one am most anxious to hear how this all turns out for you! Please let us know!
Warm Regards Bernie
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Post by billmac on May 1, 2013 18:22:22 GMT -5
The reason I recommended you get the 4520 and the XPA-5 from the start is to future-proof yourself should you ever require additional power beyond the 4520's stated 150wpc (8ohm) rating. There are no real reviews out that test what the 4520 is really capable of, especially in the 4ohm region; Denon just publishes it is 4ohm capable. With the XPA-5, you are already guaranteed a power rating to boot, so you would probably never have to worry about power should you acquire new or additional speakers. Given that the 4520 is also an 11.2 capable receiver (with 9 channels of onboard power), you could also use the XPA to power your mains, and use the remaining 4520 power for surrounds or zone 2/3 speakers. I disagree with this mindset. Why not try the 4520 in ones system before adding an external amp? It doesn't cost anything to do this . If the OP finds the 4520's amps have more than sufficent power for his system the money going towards an amp can be spent on other upgrades. If the OP finds he needs amps for additional channels in the future then he can buy them then. Bill
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Post by Gary Cook on May 1, 2013 18:54:50 GMT -5
Having moved from a 120 wpc rated Denon AVR (tested at 93 wpc with 5 channels driven) to an XPA-5 (200 wpc 5 channels driven) I can confidently state that there was a noticeable improvement in sound quality. Yes even at the same SPL, as per my trusty meter. I never had my Denon AVR anywhere near clipping, even during party time, so it's not a maximum volume question. I can clearly hear sounds with the XPA-5 that were previously inaudible, the sound stage is deeper and taller and the listening fatigue level is drastically reduced.
This is not just me, family, friends even the cable repair guy (don't ask), all comment on the improvement in sound quality.
More recently I replaced the Denon with a UMC-200 and that was another major step up in sound quality. Sure the UMC-200 doesn't have all the features of the Denon, but I don't really miss them. Some of the features I'm sure I was using just because they were there not because I really needed them. The superior sound of the UMC-200 wins every time.
By all means try the Denon on its own, but don't be surprised when the XPA-5 walks all over it.
Cheers Gary
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Post by billmac on May 2, 2013 7:02:08 GMT -5
Having moved from a 120 wpc rated Denon AVR (tested at 93 wpc with 5 channels driven) to an XPA-5 (200 wpc 5 channels driven) I can confidently state that there was a noticeable improvement in sound quality. Yes even at the same SPL, as per my trusty meter. I never had my Denon AVR anywhere near clipping, even during party time, so it's not a maximum volume question. I can clearly hear sounds with the XPA-5 that were previously inaudible, the sound stage is deeper and taller and the listening fatigue level is drastically reduced. This is not just me, family, friends even the cable repair guy (don't ask), all comment on the improvement in sound quality. More recently I replaced the Denon with a UMC-200 and that was another major step up in sound quality. Sure the UMC-200 doesn't have all the features of the Denon, but I don't really miss them. Some of the features I'm sure I was using just because they were there not because I really needed them. The superior sound of the UMC-200 wins every time. By all means try the Denon on its own, but don't be surprised when the XPA-5 walks all over it. Cheers Gary Gary, I certainly respect your opinion as you did a first hand comparison of your Denon without and then with the XPA-5. But my question is what is the XPA-5 doing to "hear sounds with the XPA-5 that were previously inaudible, the sound stage is deeper and taller" that the amps in the Denon are not? If the XPA-5 is an amp that presents a signal in a neutral and uncolored way how can these improvements happen? How can sounds "that were previously inaudible" now be audible? I'm in no way trying to ridicule your thoughts but just trying to understand how this can happen. Bill
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2013 7:10:13 GMT -5
Bill,
I understand your comment, and wonder the same thing, but All of these people (myself included) that notice a significant difference , when adding an xpa-5, cant be imagining it.
My father (who used to be huge into audio in the 70's/80's...always told me that more power will actually shine when at lower volumes...now I don't know if there is even a remote ounce of truth to this...but I'll be damned if I don't hear it myself
But to me...the XPA-5 made a WORLD of difference in the small nuances and bigger soudnstage than my onkyo 809
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Post by billmac on May 2, 2013 7:27:40 GMT -5
Bill, I understand your comment, and wonder the same thing, but All of these people (myself included) that notice a significant difference , when adding an xpa-5, cant be imagining it. My father (who used to be huge into audio in the 70's/80's...always told me that more power will actually shine when at lower volumes...now I don't know if there is even a remote ounce of truth to this...but I'll be damned if I don't hear it myself But to me...the XPA-5 made a WORLD of difference in the small nuances and bigger soudnstage than my onkyo 809 bmoney, I do not doubt your thoughts either. I just do not understand how the addition of an external amp can make significant SQ improvements when comparison volume levels are matched and volume levels are well below levels to cause clipping (distortion). To be honest the SQ improvements mentioned seem to be ones I can detect when the volume level is increased. If the same processor and source is being used and volume levels are matched what is causing the difference? How can more power at lower volume levels equate to better SQ? Again I'm not trying to ridicule or berate anyones opinion on this. I'm just trying to figure out what is the technical reason for this to happen. Bill
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2013 11:13:19 GMT -5
could it be that more power is dedicated to each speaker individually, rather than when I certain speaker NEEDS more power from an increased signal ...the power is drained from the other channels (in an AVR for example)
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Post by sergeantynot on May 2, 2013 11:52:49 GMT -5
Bill, I understand your comment, and wonder the same thing, but All of these people (myself included) that notice a significant difference , when adding an xpa-5, cant be imagining it. My father (who used to be huge into audio in the 70's/80's...always told me that more power will actually shine when at lower volumes...now I don't know if there is even a remote ounce of truth to this...but I'll be damned if I don't hear it myself But to me...the XPA-5 made a WORLD of difference in the small nuances and bigger soudnstage than my onkyo 809 bmoney, I do not doubt your thoughts either. I just do not understand how the addition of an external amp can make significant SQ improvements when comparison volume levels are matched and volume levels are well below levels to cause clipping (distortion). To be honest the SQ improvements mentioned seem to be ones I can detect when the volume level is increased. Have you tried using your Denon to power your speakers without the amp at low levels? What was your observation?
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Post by sergeantynot on May 2, 2013 12:19:52 GMT -5
could it be that more power is dedicated to each speaker individually, rather than when I certain speaker NEEDS more power from an increased signal ...the power is drained from the other channels (in an AVR for example) One of the reasons I will always be hesitant to recommending an AVR to powering a speaker is their given ratings don't seem to be as accurate as in the past. On older beefy Denon models that had toroid transformers, like the 5803, the 170wpc x 7 rating was easily reached, even in 4ohm mode. I haven't seen any official benchmark tests on the 4520, so is the 150wpc x9 accurate, and what rating is accomplished in 4ohm mode? Time well tell.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2013 12:35:23 GMT -5
bmoney, I do not doubt your thoughts either. I just do not understand how the addition of an external amp can make significant SQ improvements when comparison volume levels are matched and volume levels are well below levels to cause clipping (distortion). To be honest the SQ improvements mentioned seem to be ones I can detect when the volume level is increased. Have you tried using your Denon to power your speakers without the amp at low levels? What was your observation? just to be clear I have an Onkyo 809...but yes. it(avr) wasn't as pronounced with size of sound stage, separation, imaging and small details being clear as the emotiva.....granted it wasn't a perfect A/B test since I had to take the time to reconnect all the interconnects etc...but it was noticeable...even by those that don't care about such things (aka the wife)
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Post by sergeantynot on May 2, 2013 13:18:28 GMT -5
Have you tried using your Denon to power your speakers without the amp at low levels? What was your observation? just to be clear I have an Onkyo 809...but yes. it(avr) wasn't as pronounced with size of sound stage, separation, imaging and small details being clear as the emotiva.....granted it wasn't a perfect A/B test since I had to take the time to reconnect all the interconnects etc...but it was noticeable...even by those that don't care about such things (aka the wife) Hey there...my question was really geared towards Bill actually. However, I have no doubt that you experienced a noticeable improvement. I had a beloved Pioneer for years that had a large transformer, and was rated at 110wpc in stereo mode (100wpc in 7 channel). When I added the UPA-7 (125wpc) in the mix, I could not believe the improvement that I noticed, even in stereo mode. 7 channel mode obviously blew the Pioneer out of the water, but the real shocker for me was the improvement in stereo as well. For years I had been powering some pretty efficient 8ohm speakers, so I did not expect there to be a sizeable improvement on my already rated 110wpc Pioneer. I was dead wrong, and to this day advocate just bypassing the receiver altogether for serious audiophile playback. I cringe at the thought of powering my current less efficient 4ohm speakers, which have a recommended amp requirement of 300watts, with an AVR.
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Post by billmac on May 2, 2013 15:16:52 GMT -5
Have you tried using your Denon to power your speakers without the amp at low levels? What was your observation? No I have not. But I will definitely be doing this in the near future. I will post my thoughts when I do so. Bill
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Post by Golden Ear on May 2, 2013 15:27:35 GMT -5
Bill, I understand your comment, and wonder the same thing, but All of these people (myself included) that notice a significant difference , when adding an xpa-5, cant be imagining it. My father (who used to be huge into audio in the 70's/80's...always told me that more power will actually shine when at lower volumes...now I don't know if there is even a remote ounce of truth to this...but I'll be damned if I don't hear it myself But to me...the XPA-5 made a WORLD of difference in the small nuances and bigger soudnstage than my onkyo 809 bmoney, I do not doubt your thoughts either. I just do not understand how the addition of an external amp can make significant SQ improvements when comparison volume levels are matched and volume levels are well below levels to cause clipping (distortion). To be honest the SQ improvements mentioned seem to be ones I can detect when the volume level is increased. If the same processor and source is being used and volume levels are matched what is causing the difference? How can more power at lower volume levels equate to better SQ? Again I'm not trying to ridicule or berate anyones opinion on this. I'm just trying to figure out what is the technical reason for this to happen. Bill Bill is right because XPA-5 is neutral so the sound signature of Denon is what will be heard. The listener will just gain more dynamics and headroom. I tried few preamp on my UPA-2 and its sounds changes based on preamp brand using same source equipment.
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Post by billmac on May 2, 2013 16:06:17 GMT -5
One of the reasons I will always be hesitant to recommending an AVR to powering a speaker is their given ratings don't seem to be as accurate as in the past. On older beefy Denon models that had toroid transformers, like the 5803, the 170wpc x 7 rating was easily reached, even in 4ohm mode. I haven't seen any official benchmark tests on the 4520, so is the 150wpc x9 accurate, and what rating is accomplished in 4ohm mode? Time well tell. Once again I do not understand this mindset. Why recommend adding an external amp if you do not know if a specific AVR will have no issues driving ones speakers to preferred volume levels? I would say just about every system varies from speaker types, room size and volumes desired. So to say you are hesitant to recommend an AVR to power ones system without knowing those variables is not the best advice IMO. The best advice is to try the AVR powering ones speakers and if the power is lacking then add an external amp. Bill
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Post by sergeantynot on May 2, 2013 16:30:18 GMT -5
Once again I do not understand this mindset. Why recommend adding an external amp if you do not know if a specific AVR will have no issues driving ones speakers to preferred volume levels? I would say just about every system varies from speaker types, room size and volumes desired. So to say you are hesitant to recommend an AVR to power ones system without knowing those variables is not the best advice IMO. The best advice is to try the AVR powering ones speakers and if the power is lacking then add an external amp. Bill Your point sounds good in theory, and I appreciate that you seem to be the lone ranger to champion the "only add an amp when needed" mantra, but even you yourself have not bothered testing your Denon equipment without an amp. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if memory serves the 4311 is rated as a 4ohm capable 140wpc AVR. There must be a reason you completely bypassed testing your speakers on the Denon. Why exactly was this? In this case, how exactly can you be so sure that at low level volumes (non-clipping as you stated), the performance would be identical to having an amp? By the way, you do a superb job of telling people their Emotiva equipment shouldn't (in theory) increase performance in their system. Which Emotiva gear do you personally have that you experienced no sonic improvements with?
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Post by sergeantynot on May 2, 2013 16:34:59 GMT -5
One of the reasons I will always be hesitant to recommending an AVR to powering a speaker is their given ratings don't seem to be as accurate as in the past. On older beefy Denon models that had toroid transformers, like the 5803, the 170wpc x 7 rating was easily reached, even in 4ohm mode. I haven't seen any official benchmark tests on the 4520, so is the 150wpc x9 accurate, and what rating is accomplished in 4ohm mode? Time well tell. Once again I do not understand this mindset. Why recommend adding an external amp if you do not know if a specific AVR will have no issues driving ones speakers to preferred volume levels? I would say just about every system varies from speaker types, room size and volumes desired. So to say you are hesitant to recommend an AVR to power ones system without knowing those variables is not the best advice IMO. The best advice is to try the AVR powering ones speakers and if the power is lacking then add an external amp. Bill Also, to my point about the toroid transformer (or lack thereof in today's Denons), was that the stated power specs were more accurate in the past when they were manufactured into their AVRs. Would I power my current speakers with a 5803? Sure. Today's Denons? Not a chance. All things being equal, even after my friend added a 2 channel amp to his mains with a 5803, he noticed a major sonic improvement. Then again, we are talking about major audiophile speakers that require power...I would have no problem powering satellite speakers with most AVRs ;D
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Post by garbulky on May 2, 2013 16:44:01 GMT -5
Something very important I've found different is the precense of dynamics. There's a lot of it with emo amps. I suspect their capacitance and ability to drive 4 ohms (and 2 ohms with some of their amps) with ease. I doubt AVR's in that price range could do dynamics quit as well and I'm not talking about deafening dynamics. Just quality dynamics that have no lag to them.
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Post by sergeantynot on May 2, 2013 16:49:26 GMT -5
^ To play devil's advocate, when I had my old 8ohm speakers powered by the UPA-7, they sounded excellent and I never felt that they would ever clip. When I upgraded to the XPA-3, I actually noticed NO sonic improvement whatsoever. I was kind of disappointed and happy at the same time at how wonderful the UPA-7 really was.
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