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Post by swampfire on Jan 7, 2014 20:07:43 GMT -5
When I set up my subwoofer via the test tones it ends up being 8 and 10 db lower than what it should be. If I level set it via the 7030 test tones with the rest of the speakers it ends up at -3 when listening to music or movies I had to turn it up to +6.5 to get proper output with the rest of the speakers. It's a pretty common problem among 7030 owners but the fact yours didn't do this from the start is extremely odd. I don't understand this statement at all. What other test tone(s) are you using that aren't internal to the 7030? Also, I'm a 7030 owner and have no idea what you're talking about when you mention this is a "common problem". I can integrate my sub(s) just fine. I think the user that has sparked this discussion is a special case as it does sound a bit like his unit might be malfunctioning. I just confirmed the problem fattykidd described. I calibrated my levels using my Spears and Munsil BluRay, then went into the PT-7030's LEVEL CAL. menu. The LFE channel reads 10db higher than all the other channels. In my case, LFE is 80dB while all other channels are 70dB. My "SUB LEVELS" are all set to zero, so that's not causing it. Fortunately, the user workaround for this is super-easy. If you do use the 7030's level calibration, turn up your sub until it reads 10dB higher than the other channels. Unfortunately, a lot of people won't read this and the PT-7030 will get an undeserved reputation for being bass-shy. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2014 20:16:20 GMT -5
Also the analog section of the 7030 sounds amazing, the DC-1 and 7030 are a killer combo, having owned a Pre-1 I would say unless you need the phono input you will not need the Pre-1, but better you decide that than us. Chad I agree about the analogue section, I compared it to my Simaudio 2ch pre amp and it was very close. |
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Post by swampfire on Jan 8, 2014 23:08:41 GMT -5
After 4 hours of research, I can now post this.  The PT-7030 mutes its audio outputs for 1-6 seconds every time the digital audio signal is interrupted and restarted. The delay varies depending on the bitstream codec complexity. This muting typically happens when returning from a commercial break, unpausing a DVR, or starting playback of a new program. However there are three input modes that don't cause the PT-7030 to mute: 1. HDMI, using Multichannel PCM (any bitrate) 2. SPDIF, using 2CH PCM at 44.1kHz (i.e. “CD quality music”) 3. Analog This isn't as bad as it seems. Armed with this information, you now have workarounds for most types of audio: 1. Multichannel (BluRay, DVD, Netflix, Hulu, cable box)Decode the DTS or Dolby surround audio AT THE SOURCE, and send multichannel PCM over the HDMI cable. You'll completely bypass the surround decoder on the PT-7030, which is the cause of the delay. Almost any universal or BluRay player has a PCM setting for HDMI. If you've set it up correctly, you'll see "MULTICHANNEL" on the PT-7030's front panel, and you'll get audio the moment you skip or unpause. On my Sony BluRay player, I set “Audio Settings… Audio(HDMI)” to PCM instead of Auto. Don't feel bad about not using the PT-7030's decoder. Surround decoding is like JPEG decoding; it's a settled technology. If your source can't decode surround (e.g. the XBOX), see if there’s an “instant replay” feature to use when you unpause. Unfortunately there’s not much else you can do for these sources. 2. Music Stereo @ 44.1kHz PCM (e.g. Airport Express, CD transports)Use SPDIF, and you'll send your unmolested bits directly to the stereo DACs in the PT-7030. This sounds grrrreat; I highly recommend it. [EDIT: Actually, the bits do go through the DSP section for bass management and PEQ, but it still sounds great].
3. TV Stereo @ 48kHz PCM (e.g. AppleTV, stereo programs on Hulu and Netflix)Both HDMI and SPDIF will have the audio delay issue in this case. If your source has analog L/R outputs, use those. Failing that, see if you can substitute another source (e.g. Airport Express or Roku instead of Apple TV). Or find something better to watch. :-) 4. SACDs [EDITED, thanks Keith] Multichannel SACDs will need to be converted to PCM for transmission over HDMI. Multichannel PCM does not have the audio dropout issue. My “research” for the above is in the first table below. My main media source (shown in blue) is the Sony BDP-S590, with “Audio(HDMI)” set to “Auto” (bad!), and Digital Out set to Bitstream. For the HDMI and SPDIF columns, I wrote down what was shown on the PT-7030 front panel. If I observed the audio dropout (on resume or skip), I highlighted it in red.  Here’s what the table looks like with the workarounds:  Now that I have a much better understanding of the problem, I can live with it. I rarely watch cable TV on the XBOX, and stereo-only movies are becoming pretty rare. I’ll use the Airport Express and my iPad together for stereo music, and if I ever want to listen to CDs I just need to remember to switch to SPDIF. |
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Post by bosshogg on Jan 8, 2014 23:11:40 GMT -5
40% upgrade card which I'll be using on the processor after the XMC because I do not feel the XMC is a big enough upgrade from the PT-7030. Have you fact-checked that you can skip a generation? Quote from the FAQ page: You can use the Upgrade Certificate to purchase one next generation processor at 40% off of the standard price.emotiva.com/faq/processor_upgradeNot saying you cannot, but just asking. My card says 40% off a generation 3 or higher processor. |
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Post by cwmcobra on Jan 8, 2014 23:34:40 GMT -5
Swampfire,
Thanks for the diligent research on this issue. It will be a while before I'm ready to use many of those sources, but I'm going to copy and archive this info for when I get to that point. Glad to hear there are good workarounds!
Cheers!
Chuck
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Post by rohrej on Jan 8, 2014 23:43:38 GMT -5
I don't understand this statement at all. What other test tone(s) are you using that aren't internal to the 7030? Also, I'm a 7030 owner and have no idea what you're talking about when you mention this is a "common problem". I can integrate my sub(s) just fine. I think the user that has sparked this discussion is a special case as it does sound a bit like his unit might be malfunctioning. I just confirmed the problem fattykidd described. I calibrated my levels using my Spears and Munsil BluRay, then went into the PT-7030's LEVEL CAL. menu. The LFE channel reads 10db higher than all the other channels. In my case, LFE is 80dB while all other channels are 70dB. My "SUB LEVELS" are all set to zero, so that's not causing it. Fortunately, the user workaround for this is super-easy. If you do use the 7030's level calibration, turn up your sub until it reads 10dB higher than the other channels. Unfortunately, a lot of people won't read this and the PT-7030 will get an undeserved reputation for being bass-shy. Agreed, I've set up 3 of these for different people now and the subwoofer test tone is 10 db too high on each of them. Unfortunately I was callibrating at reference levels the first time around and blew a driver in the sub. |
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Post by bosshogg on Jan 9, 2014 1:42:39 GMT -5
As far as the sub level. I ordered a pro audio xlr to rca cable from monoprice and I am going to test the output using the balanced sub out of the 7030. With the balanced output having a higher voltage than the unbalanced rca output, I think I should be able to lower the gain on my sub. I'll report the results when I get the cable and hook it up.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 9, 2014 2:10:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the useful info..... (I can't resist the urge to add a few details, though)... The "dropout" you describe is simply a muting period which occurs every time the digital audio signal is interrupted and restarted. (It is different in different modes, which is why it can be annoying with some types of inputs.) Also, multi-channel SACDs are recorded in multi-channel DSD - NOT PCM - so their native format is indeed DSD. Some players will provide the DSD unaltered over their HDMI output, and some will do the conversion for you and provide you with PCM, but the original data is DSD. (Since a conversion is required, the bit rate at which converted PCM is delivered is chosen by the conversion process... DSD "sample rates" are not directly comparable to PCM sample rates.) After 4 hours of research, I can now post this. There are exactly three input modes that don't suffer from the audio dropout issue: 1. HDMI, using Multichannel PCM (any bitrate) 2. SPDIF, using 2CH PCM at 44.1kHz (i.e. “CD quality music”) 3. Analog This isn't as bad as it seems. Armed with this information, you now have workarounds for most types of audio: 1. Multichannel (BluRay, DVD, Netflix, Hulu, cable box)Decode the DTS or Dolby surround audio AT THE SOURCE, and send multichannel PCM over the HDMI cable. You'll completely bypass the surround decoder on the PT-7030, which is the cause of the delay. Almost any universal or BluRay player has a PCM setting for HDMI. If you've set it up correctly, you'll see "MULTICHANNEL" on the PT-7030's front panel, and you'll get audio the moment you skip or unpause. On my Sony BluRay player, I set “Audio Settings… Audio(HDMI)” to PCM instead of Auto. Don't feel bad about not using the PT-7030's decoder. Surround decoding is like JPEG decoding; it's a settled technology. If your source can't decode surround (e.g. the XBOX), see if there’s an “instant replay” feature to use when you unpause. Unfortunately there’s not much else you can do for these sources. 2. Music Stereo @ 44.1kHz PCM (e.g. Airport Express, CD transports)Use SPDIF, and you'll send your unmolested bits directly to the stereo DACs in the PT-7030. This sounds grrrreat; I highly recommend it. 3. TV Stereo @ 48kHz PCM (e.g. AppleTV, stereo programs on Hulu and Netflix)Both HDMI and SPDIF will have the audio delay issue in this case. If your source has analog L/R outputs, use those. Failing that, see if you can substitute another source (e.g. Airport Express or Roku instead of Apple TV). Or find something better to watch. :-) 4. SACDs Multichannel SACDs are natively multichannel PCM (ignoring DSD), so you shouldn’t have a problem with these. My “research” for the above is in the first table below. My main media source (shown in blue) is the Sony BDP-S590, with “Audio(HDMI)” set to “Auto” (bad!), and Digital Out set to Bitstream. For the HDMI and SPDIF columns, I wrote down what was shown on the PT-7030 front panel. If I observed the audio dropout (on resume or skip), I highlighted it in red. Here’s what the table looks like with the workarounds: Now that I have a much better understanding of the problem, I can live with it. I rarely watch cable TV on the XBOX, and stereo-only movies are becoming pretty rare. I’ll use the Airport Express and my iPad together for stereo music, and if I ever want to listen to CDs I just need to remember to switch to SPDIF. |
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Post by cwt on Jan 9, 2014 4:56:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the useful info..... (I can't resist the urge to add a few details, though)... Is that an indirect reference to the previously mentioned firmware upgrade Keith ? Could be reading into this too much though  I seem to recall it being possible to tweak the locking on times in previous posts [ as long as its not to fine causing white noise etc to rear its head like other cirrus logic implementations out there  ] Could you speak too how hard a firmware upgrade is considering the note in the manual about using the ethernet to rs232 cable for these ; thanks . And how this will effect the purported redesigned emo 7030 ? Very happy with my 7030 in any case as I dont skip chapters in bd movies and all dvd-a and sacd multichannel is sent converted due to the pcm dacs in the pre pro . |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 8:39:04 GMT -5
After 4 hours of research, I can now post this. There are exactly three input modes that don't suffer from the audio dropout issue: 1. HDMI, using Multichannel PCM (any bitrate) 2. SPDIF, using 2CH PCM at 44.1kHz (i.e. “CD quality music”) 3. Analog Thanks for passing on your findings..very interesting. I have tried 2CH 44.1 from both my Squeezebox and CD player to the 7030 via Toslink and Coax and still have the audio dropout. |
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Post by swampfire on Jan 9, 2014 10:39:10 GMT -5
Thanks for passing on your findings..very interesting. I have tried 2CH 44.1 from both my Squeezebox and CD player to the 7030 via Toslink and Coax and still have the audio dropout. Bummer. What do you see on the front of the 7030 when you're playing from these sources? |
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Post by repeetavx on Jan 9, 2014 10:54:18 GMT -5
I agree about the analogue section, I compared it to my Simaudio 2ch pre amp and it was very close. This 2ch pre amp wasn't by chance an Evolution 850P was it? |
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Post by swampfire on Jan 9, 2014 10:58:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the added info, Keith. Whether it's a "muting period" or a "dropout", the result is for me and my wife the same. I come back from answering the phone, unpause our show, and we see lips moving for 3-6 seconds with nothing coming out of the speakers. Then I have to rewind to hear what they said, and I overshoot every time. It's really annoying; if I watched Cable more often I'd be looking for another processor (because there's not a workaround). Fortunately my wife prefers to watch Cable upstairs, and I'm a Netflix/Hulu guy. I haven't seen a good explanation of why some audiophile processors have this "muting period" and normal AVRs don't. If someone could explain that, it would help me a lot. Is this problem somehow endemic to the "separates" approach? Your note about SACD recording is interesting. I always thought that they were either PCM or DSD. It's kind of a moot point though, since I need to convert it to PCM before sending it to the PT-7030. And as I've noted before, I don't really think this is a problem. Regards, John Thanks for the useful info..... (I can't resist the urge to add a few details, though)... The "dropout" you describe is simply a muting period which occurs every time the digital audio signal is interrupted and restarted. (It is different in different modes, which is why it can be annoying with some types of inputs.) Also, multi-channel SACDs are recorded in multi-channel DSD - NOT PCM - so their native format is indeed DSD. Some players will provide the DSD unaltered over their HDMI output, and some will do the conversion for you and provide you with PCM, but the original data is DSD. (Since a conversion is required, the bit rate at which converted PCM is delivered is chosen by the conversion process... DSD "sample rates" are not directly comparable to PCM sample rates.) |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 12:10:18 GMT -5
Thanks for passing on your findings..very interesting. I have tried 2CH 44.1 from both my Squeezebox and CD player to the 7030 via Toslink and Coax and still have the audio dropout. Bummer. What do you see on the front of the 7030 when you're playing from these sources? PCM 2CH - 44.1K The drop out for Toslink and Coax is not as long as it is for HDMI but it still chops the first 1 - 2 seconds off of the song. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 12:11:06 GMT -5
I agree about the analogue section, I compared it to my Simaudio 2ch pre amp and it was very close. This 2ch pre amp wasn't by chance an Evolution 850P was it? No, it is the 350P |
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Post by swampfire on Jan 9, 2014 12:56:30 GMT -5
Bummer. What do you see on the front of the 7030 when you're playing from these sources? PCM 2CH - 44.1K The drop out for Toslink and Coax is not as long as it is for HDMI but it still chops the first 1 - 2 seconds off of the song. I'll try it again tonight. Maybe I just got lucky with my 2 sources (Airport Express and Sony BDP). |
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Jan 9, 2014 14:46:16 GMT -5
Have you fact-checked that you can skip a generation? Quote from the FAQ page: You can use the Upgrade Certificate to purchase one next generation processor at 40% off of the standard price.emotiva.com/faq/processor_upgradeNot saying you cannot, but just asking. My card says 40% off a generation 3 or higher processor. Thanks.  |
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Post by swampfire on Jan 9, 2014 17:02:28 GMT -5
Off-topic, but I just bought an Onkyo C-7030 CD player to go with my PT-7030. I haven't owned a dedicated CD player in years, but I was getting tired of waiting for my s-l-o-w BDP to wake up. I'll probably use the player's analog output, but it will be interesting to compare its DACs to the PT-7030's. |
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Post by cwt on Jan 10, 2014 0:13:13 GMT -5
I haven't seen a good explanation of why some audiophile processors have this "muting period" and normal AVRs don't. If someone could explain that, it would help me a lot. Is this problem somehow endemic to the "separates" approach? Your note about SACD recording is interesting. I always thought that they were either PCM or DSD. It's kind of a moot point though, since I need to convert it to PCM before sending it to the PT-7030. And as I've noted before, I don't really think this is a problem. I put it down to the chipset used John ; right or wrong . My cary 11a had the same cirrus logic cs49070 and had the same 1-2 second delay [ this can be adjusted with a firmware upgrade ] . Texas instrument chipsets in the majority of avr's tend to lock on quicker . Heres an excerpt from a cary firmware upgrade to illustrate With sacd's I like to remind myself from wikepedia [ apart from pcm needed for bass management ] |
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Post by swampfire on Jan 10, 2014 12:28:25 GMT -5
I think the whole audio delay problem is a system design issue. In a perfect world, all source devices would decode surround locally and send multichannel LPCM over HDMI. This is always better because the source has information that an external processor doesn't have. For example, my BluRay player knows that I've just unpaused a program, but the external processor can't assume that. If it did you'd hear garbage when the codec changed. The source can also "look ahead" in the stream and prepare for the upcoming audio transitions. It was quite a revelation to me to understand that bitstreaming encoded audio over HDMI is bad, bad, bad.
My new view of the A/V Pre/Pro world is that the surround decoder is only there to support remedial devices like the XBOX 360, which cannot decode locally. In the future, I will avoid sources like this.
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I seem to recall it being possible to tweak the locking on times in previous posts [ as long as its not to fine causing white noise etc to rear its head like other cirrus logic implementations out there 
]
