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Post by monkumonku on Apr 28, 2014 21:56:38 GMT -5
Lol! Confession time. That pic was not the female audiophile I met. However that pic IS of another female audiophile. Astounding news, I know. The lady I met was a very interesting person and we had some interesting and varied discussions. So then that begs the question, how do we know that the equipment you review in your posts are not imposters?
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Post by garbulky on Apr 29, 2014 6:07:46 GMT -5
Lol! Confession time. That pic was not the female audiophile I met. However that pic IS of another female audiophile. Astounding news, I know. The lady I met was a very interesting person and we had some interesting and varied discussions. So then that begs the question, how do we know that the equipment you review in your posts are not imposters? Now you've got me wondering.... Are Emotiva products in my imagination or not. Is my life a dream? Are we just flowers....blowing in the wind? Is it time for my meds?
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cgolf
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Posts: 4,613
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Post by cgolf on Apr 29, 2014 6:16:45 GMT -5
Although the $5/pair Technics speakers were a "bargain of the century," I have high hopes that the Axiom M80s, at $1.5K/pair, will be better (although certainly not 300 times better). It's good to have friends to share your hobby with! I try to find something that Garbulky's likely not heard before for each of his visits. So far, I've succeeded. The cut that impressed Mr. & Mrs. Garbulky this visit was "Orchids in the Moonlight" by the Harry Zimmerman Big Band. It is well recorded, has lots of dynamics, and is a fun listen. Cheers - Boomzilla Boom, Looking forward to some detailed & honest reviews, thoughts and comments about the new Axioms. Love my 80s but have this hankering to get something different. Haven't had the time or put out the effort to go listen to much of anything for awhile. Let us know!!
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 29, 2014 7:36:38 GMT -5
The Axioms arrived yesterday, but I haven't unpacked them yet. Once I get enough time off to declutter the living room, I'll get them rolling!
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 29, 2014 8:59:02 GMT -5
So then that begs the question, how do we know that the equipment you review in your posts are not imposters? Now you've got me wondering.... Are Emotiva products in my imagination or not. Is my life a dream? Are we just flowers....blowing in the wind? Is it time for my meds? And I suppose now you're going to say that the bottom picture was taken at Boom's house when he was demonstrating his new sub, right?
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 29, 2014 16:08:33 GMT -5
Oops...
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Post by drtrey3 on Apr 29, 2014 16:19:49 GMT -5
Glenn, it is all a dream. So can I have your stuff!!!!!!!!!
8)
Trey
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 29, 2014 16:39:18 GMT -5
My "stuff" is taking a major hit soon. The storage closets are full again - time to thin the heard. (Yes, I know that's misspelled - It was intended as a pun...).
Having heard the herd, the less accomplished crooners are yard-sale bound. I may keep a few stragglers who don't take up much room, but the big boxes are destined for new homes. Once I get the menagerie out of my living room, where the gear is staged, the new animals will take up residence (the Axiom M80s). I have a total of five amps and three preamps to try them with:
Emotiva XPR-2 Crown PS400 Crown XLS1000 Marantz MA500s B&O 1900 receiver (just for kicks)
Preamps include:
Emotiva XSP-1, gen. 2 Audcom (sic) AP-110 tube preamp Oppo BDP105 used as a combo DAC/preamp
Once auditioned, the lesser power amps will serve as center & surround amps (with the B&O amplifying the TV); the preamps are small enough to tuck away for a rainy day.
My local friend who had cancer has passed. His home is a clutter of high-end gear. I will enquire as to the disposition of the estate, and plan to offer on it as a lot. Gear that I know of includes VPI HW19 turntable, SME arm, Bryston pre/power amps, Martin Logan speakers, Thousands of movies & CDs, Dynaco PAS/ST70 combo, Mission speakers, Musical Fidelity integrated, at least a dozen Eico, Heathkit, Rane, and other brand tube integrated amps, and rooms & rooms of who knows what else. I'll try to post first on the Emporium, but must contend with other potential buyers first...
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Post by garbulky on Jun 16, 2014 15:38:56 GMT -5
Another visit to the boomzilla’s. Pics coming soon! Axiom m80's! XSP-1! Last night I went over to visit our resident Mr (and Mrs) B’zilla. And if anybody has followed this thread, you will know what’s coming. He has once again updated his system but this time it was really something (imo). Let me cut to the chase. I heard the best sound I have ever heard that night. That was it. The new additions he had were the XSP-1 which I had been auditioning and really liked. A Nakamichi Class A stasis amp designed by Nelson Pass. And the star of the show – the newly updated Axiom m80 Version 4 which came with the outrigger stands and the V4 tweeter. His other usual equipment includes Oppo 105, PSA XV15 subwoofer, and an Emotiva XPR-2. Also seen in the wild but currently in hibernation was a UPA-500, a Klipsch center channel and polk bookshelves intended for surround use. I was most interested in seeing how the Axioms would perform in his room. I own the axiom m80 V2 (with all v3 components inside) so I’m very familiar with its sound. When I bought it to his place last time, though it sounded good it had a bit of trouble. These 4 ohm speakers have twelve drivers between them and the crown amps simply had trouble producing a properly balanced sound – mainly in the bass. At the time the subwoofer wasn’t in place. And the speaker sounded a little strained. I came to the conclusion that he needed something that was designed for the size of room he has – which is on the large size. His plan was to use a subwoofer cut off at 80hz. I wondered how well it would integrate with the setup. Now the new axioms involve a new tweeter which has a metal grill/waveguide on it as well as a redesigned crossover. They also have a very neat magnetic grill that I think every body should use. No more pegs. What was neat is that the way the magnets are designed they pull themselves into place. I had placed it slightly off and it simply corrected itself. Another strange thing was that the speakers were toed in unequally one pointing somewhat straight and the other toed in. B’zilla assured me that this was intended because of the room’s dimensions. Having owned these speakers and knowing how sensitive they are to toe in, I was needless to say a little skeptical I shouldn’t have been No obvious deficiencies in sound was noticed. B'zilla has some very good ears. The first listening was with the nakamichi class A stasis amp. It puts out something like 100 to 200 watts per channel in 4 ohms and it was designed by Nelson Pass. He had it on his garage sale for just a couple of hundred, but something tells me it may no longer be for sale The sound was to put it mildly -fantastic. It had a slight bloom and a lushness to it that was intoxicating. It’s strength was that the sound had good treble extension and it was definitely a dynamic amp. It also had no problem controlling the m80’s (crossed over with the sub). Going direct from the Oppo to the 100-ishwatt stasis made it a winner over the XPR-2. Yes that’s right. I typed that. Now don’t get me wrong the XPR-2 was no slouch and did some things better. But overall IN THAT SETUP, it was easy to give the nod to the stasis amp. What was obvious is that the stasis was able to give you the sense of “coupling” to the room. It’s a feeling where the sound sort of wraps around you and immerses you in a bubble. It comes out from the plane of the speakers and goes right past your ears. There was no sibilance and the most obvious strengths was that the speaker was able to image outside the plane of the speakers creating a reasonably wide soundstage. Also, thanks to the room size, the image was able to come out at you. For instance we listened to the rocky horror picture show over at the Frankenstein place. And whenever the chorus came in it appeared outside the lateral plane of the speakers and ALSO forward a few feet into the room. And each voice was forward just a slightly different amount. That was impressive. Also on my speakers due to my sitting close to them the two main voices are at different slightly exagerated heights while in B’zilla’s larger room, the heights were a bit more realistic. Only mild critic was that there was something in the upper midrange which felt was not “quite there”. But we couldn’t point it out. Also (with no disrespect to PC guy – I am not trying to diss anybody here), this was one of the clear indicators that the famous article by peter azcel i926.photobucket.com/albums/ad103/best_cl_deals4u/HT2/groundrules.jpg[/img] simply did not hold up at least in practice. Sure there are qualifiers there about output impedance etc. which I agree can change the sound. And if you had a lab and electronic skills where you could match everything the same then this may hold up. But basically the gist is all amps sound the same within their power envelope as long as the amps measure flat with decent specs and any difference in sound you hear is due to one amp running out of steam. But in this case they were audibly different driven directly by the Oppo DAC with the lower powered class A amp simply performing very well. We switched to the XPR-2 amp. The XPR-2 was audibly different and had more laid back sound and the treble wasn’t quite as extended. What was evident was that the mid-range was slightly cleaner and dynamics in the LOUDEST were slightly more resolved. For instance B’zilla played a very engrossing piano piece that had a lot of dynamics. And there were points where the piano keys are all banged at one time in powerful dissonant chords. On the stasis it was a little harder to make out the details of sound but on the XPR-2 it was significantly clearer. Don’t get me wrong about the XPR-2. The sound still sounded good. It just wasn’t as “alive” and it didn’t come out at you in quite the same way. I remember the XPA-2 having this same behavior when going dac direct to the XDA-1 and I remember it being even more pronounced when I slotted in a 100 kohm passive pre-amp. I also remember the remarkable difference when using a pre-amp with the XPA-2. Things simply were better controlled. So we decided to try the pre-amp. But before that we listened to the M80’s without the subwoofer. In my room the m80’s didn’t need a sub but in B’zilla ‘s larger area a sub definitely helped to pressurize the room. That PSA subwoofer of his was money well spent and really allows a more full and “punchy” sound to develop. I think a second subwoofer put on the other side of the room may also help with his room asymmetry. But currently the thing sounds fantastic. Onto the pre-amp. I remember trying the XSP-1 and simply noticing a significantly better soundstage vs going DAC direct. So I wondered if It would help especially on a large power amp like the XPR-2. So we (by that I mean B’zilla with much effort while I sat back ) slotted it in. With the XSP-1 in the mix it did appear to help the sound out (to my ears). The liveliness and dynamics improved. The XPR-2 was no longer as laid back. It coupled to the room projecting the voices out into the living room again. And the sound became a lot closer to the stasis. But maintained that clarity in the mid-range At this point the preference of which sound was better was a matter of preference. I didn’t get a chance to hear the stasis amplifier pre coupled to a pre-amplifier so that would be interesting. Which is another point of the article I posted. It talked about the pre-amplifier. The pre-amplifier on the XSP-1 and the pre-amp used on the DAC did not sound the same when driving an XPR-2. It was clear and audible the difference (imo). I usually shy away from double blind testing as I very much doubt I could tell the difference. But in this case I think it would be clear even with DBT. More about the XSP-1. I heard it on my system but hearing it on B’zilla’s just made it clear how GOOD the XSP-1 was. It was very balanced and I was worried about treble roll off but it wasn’t to my ears. According to B’zilla the stasis did still have a bit more treble but since we couldn’t compare with the XSP-1 in the mix it was hard to say if the XSP-1 did any treble roll off. What there was was stunning dynamics. He played little feat. Which had keyboard, lots of really nice drums and a rocking brass section. I remember I had many many exclamantions while listening to it. It was just so darn powerful. A nod to the Oppo 105. I remember listening to the DAC before and finding that I did like the DAC. With the XSP-1, room treatments, the m80’s and the two quality amplifiers – the oppo had a serious chance to shine and it did not let me down. I remember thinking the voices and tones were very natural. The center image was big. The entire presentation was of a forward nature – which wasn’t a bad thing. That’s what the axioms do and they were certainly doing it well here. And best of all…no sibilance that I could hear. We played many many songs and I was simply thrilled with it. Low level listening was also good but really the sound was best loud. I am a big fan of the female voice and hearing “fever” with all the drums and that smooth jazz singer was GREAT. So now my question is which amps did I prefer. The XPR-2 with the XSP-1 or the stasis to the oppo direct. Good question. The XPR-2 to the XSP-1 put me on a sound signature that I was familiar with so I would give a slight nod to the XPR-2 due to its clean-ness in the soundstage. But honestly it could go either way at this point. The stasis has a lushness which is also very intoxicating. I can easily see somebody with a critical ear preferring the class A stasis. I left but not before B'zilla gifted me a bag of audio goodies and Audio magazines!! Exciting! So it honestly was the best overall sound I have ever heard. I remember telling him. "I'm going to regret this" referring to the sound quality and wanting it in my home! If anybody gets the chance to visit B’zilla, do so as I doubt you would be disappointed . The sound really is that good. The photo will have to wait till this evening. Thanks again to the B’zilla’s for their kindness and hospitality.
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 16, 2014 16:30:44 GMT -5
So I'll throw in my two cents concerning the listening evening that we enjoyed: The first system iteration was Oppo BDP 105 directly to the Nakamichi Stasis 5 amp with bass management being handled by the Oppo. This was a very, very exciting and dynamic sound. The Nak has a sweet and extended sounding treble and the detail from the upper midrange on up is the best I've heard. If you pushed the amp to VERY loud levels, the midrange had a slightly mechanical / grainy sound. I heard it most clearly on "Statesboro Blues" by the Allman Brothers. The voice just didn't sound real at high volumes. Backing off the volume brought things somewhat back into balance which begs the question: Was this an artifact of the amplifier, the speakers, or the room being overloaded? Not sure...
The second iteration of the system was identical to the first except that the (fully warmed up) XPR-2 was substituted for the Nakamichi. IMMEDIATELY the difference in treble was apparent. The Nak just sounds LOTS more extended than the XPR. The dynamics also took a big hit. The Nak had a "jump factor" that the XPR just failed to match. What the XPR did well, though, was that at higher volumes, the midrange tonality didn't have that "mechanical" sound that came from the Nak. I must therefore conclude that neither the speakers nor the room was the cause, but rather the Nakamichi amp.
The third iteration of the system was to use the Axiom M80 speakers full-range without use of the subwoofer. Although they did fine, the lowest end just wasn't there. Garbulky and I both (instantly) agreed that the system sounded much better with the sub than without it.
Finally, we hooked up the XSP-1, generation 2 between the Oppo and the XPR-2. The Oppo's balanced (full range) outputs were sent to the XSP and the XSP's balanced (high-pass only) outputs fed the XPR. All previous listening had been done with unbalanced RCA lines. Since the Oppo was sending a full-range signal to the XSP, the XSP's bass management was used to feed the sub, rather than the Oppo's. As Garbulky said, the dynamics instantly picked up significantly with the XSP-1 in the system. I was (to put it mildly) surprised in the instant difference. The already excellent midrange of the XPR-2 remained, but now with more dynamics. Unfortunately, the treble reticence that was apparent with the XPR-2 before remained after the addition of the XSP-1 preamp. This was highly disappointing. I was hoping for the whole enchilada!
Tonight, if I have time, I plan to hook up the XSP-1 preamp's unbalanced lines to the Nakamichi power amp (only because the Nak has RCA inputs only). Hopefully, the midrange will improve and the lovely treble bloom will also remain.
The only other amps I'm eager to try are the Crown PS400 (which has not shined previously with 4 ohm loads like the Axiom) and the UPA-500. After that, spare amps will begin flying to the Emporium.
Thanks to Garbulky for his time and effort in fine-tuning the system and suggesting things (like the preamp) that I might not have even bothered to try had it not been for his insistence. To sum up: This is FUN!
Boomzilla
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Post by garbulky on Jun 16, 2014 19:08:35 GMT -5
There it is.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jun 16, 2014 19:17:18 GMT -5
Great work guys, super interesting reviews and comments as usual. Your comments on the Nakamichi are what I hear typically from a Class A amp. Extended treble and detail from the upper mid range upwards. The midrange harshness (although it's not really harsh, just a tiny bit harsher) is also what I find with Class A amps when driven towards their power limit. When we use a sub to take the low frequency load off the main amp, it's the lower mid range that places the power demands. It's one of the reasons (not the only reason) why Class AB is so popular as it avoids that issue and provides the necessary power reserves.
It's what switching, high bias amps like the XPA-1L and XPA-1 Gen 2 are all about. Giving that Class A extended treble and detail while having enough grunt in Class AB to handle the mid range loads when the demand is there. What I imagine it would be like having the Nakamichi and the XPR-2 in the one amp.
Keep in up guys, it makes very interesting reading.
Cheers Gary
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 16, 2014 20:32:01 GMT -5
...It's what switching, high bias amps like the XPA-1L and XPA-1 Gen 2 are all about. Giving that Class A extended treble and detail while having enough grunt in Class AB to handle the mid range loads when the demand is there. What I imagine it would be like having the Nakamichi and the XPR-2 in the one amp... Hi Gary & thanks for the feedback. Of the XPA-1L & the XPA-1, which do YOU think does the better job? I'm continuing my comments in the thread "Boomzilla's Journey" so I don't muck up Garbulky's too much.
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Post by wiskers on Jun 16, 2014 21:12:28 GMT -5
I enjoy reading these post! Thanks for doing it guy's.
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Post by creimes on Jun 16, 2014 21:29:55 GMT -5
Magnetic Grills are the schiznit
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Post by garbulky on Jun 16, 2014 22:23:40 GMT -5
Great work guys, super interesting reviews and comments as usual. Your comments on the Nakamichi are what I hear typically from a Class A amp. Extended treble and detail from the upper mid range upwards. The midrange harshness (although it's not really harsh, just a tiny bit harsher) is also what I find with Class A amps when driven towards their power limit. When we use a sub to take the low frequency load off the main amp, it's the lower mid range that places the power demands. It's one of the reasons (not the only reason) why Class AB is so popular as it avoids that issue and provides the necessary power reserves. It's what switching, high bias amps like the XPA-1L and XPA-1 Gen 2 are all about. Giving that Class A extended treble and detail while having enough grunt in Class AB to handle the mid range loads when the demand is there. What I imagine it would be like having the Nakamichi and the XPR-2 in the one amp. Keep in up guys, it makes very interesting reading. Cheers Gary Good insights. BTW Gary that XSP-1 was FANTASTIC. Never heard sound like it. I enjoy reading these post! Thanks for doing it guy's. Glad to hear Magnetic Grills are the schiznit They are the way forward No more broken pegs
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 17, 2014 14:51:19 GMT -5
The Gar and I may disagree on the XSP-1 (as we did on the Stealth DC-1). My room is so much different than Garbulky's that what we're hearing may not be the preamp at all, but other things.
Gar likes the tonality of the XSP-1. I think that it sounds somewhat closed-in in the treble range.
We both agree that the preamp seems to enhance the dynamics of the midrange, and that the midrange is extremely detailed and natural sounding.
We can't compare notes on the bass, because Garbulky runs his Axiom M80s full-range, and I run mine with a subwoofer.
We also both agree that the XSP-1 is an excellent preamp, whether or not it ends up being the one for me.
Garbulky also says I need a second subwoofer and more room treatments. He may be right, or not... He already agrees that the system sounds better than anything he's yet heard short of live performance, so I'm not sure what extra subs & panels might help with.
I do have the listening room to the point where there is no audible slap echo (not the case before the room panels). Even if I turn it into an anechoic chamber, the listening position STILL won't be symmetrical...
Cheers - Boom
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Post by garbulky on Jun 17, 2014 16:24:47 GMT -5
I hesitate to write this as I fear it may come off as patronizing. It absolutely isn't meant to be. Also....your system currently sounds fantastic. It really does. So disclaimer above aside: My best response to that is that the finding (no slap echo) doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion ofaccurate sound with no unwanted reflections and muddying. Neither does a great sound lead you to the same conclusion. What it DOES lead to is the accurate conclusion there is no slap echo. The presence of a slap echo WOULD correctly lead you to want to eliminate it. But the absence of it doesn't lead you to the conclusion that treatment is finished. Same goes with a great sound. A great sound leads you to the conclusion that the sound is great. Not that it couldn't be better. For instance the scenario: you were speaking in a bathroom you would notice reverberations from your voice. If you were to treat the place with room panels enough to remove the reverberation heard in your voice would you say that the bathroiom is now properly treated? Would it accurately reproduce a double bass playing in a smaller room? Or would it sound bloated due to the bathrooms dimensions and the bass panels not being installed. (The room panels already installed are ineffective against bass frequencies). At a stone cathedral if you installed JUST enough room panels to dampen a slap echo. Do you think that the sound will no longer be a little thin and hollow? The answer is the treatment of the slap echo would NOT have allieviated the room. To do so one must engage in further experimentation - preferrably with actual measurement tools. Likely additional room panels would be needed as well as other tools. In the end it wouldn't perfectly eliminate a room's altering of the sound (there IS such a thing as overtreatment) but it will hopefully get close. You mentioned this is the best sound you've had in the room. And that right there leads to a significant problem (which I have too). It's very hard to tell what can be improved (if anything) with the sound if you have no better reference. Sometimes all you can do is guess. As for the assymetry. I suspect that the sub in the (closed) corner is helping contribute to the assymetry. Maybe, maybe not. But that's my best guess for the pronounced assymetry you noticed. The ear isn't conscious of the directionality of low frequency bass but the room is. For me I think the most improvement to be gained is a little clearing up of the upper bass frequencies for you. Don't get me wrong it sounds fantastic - best I've heard, but I think it could be even better. And that's definitely not an insult. I personally think you've got it very close to the "perfect" sound already From here on out, it's about adjusting the flavor. I have to come visit again.
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 17, 2014 17:11:35 GMT -5
I never feel patronized by you, and even if I disagree, I'm very interested in your opinions.
That disclaimer aside:
I agree that physics are hard (very, very hard) to overcome. Getting pipe organ fundamentals in a bathroom is a perfectly good example. I can do it, though - headphones! LOL
Using your advice, though, would lead to a never-ending application of room treatment. Yes it sounds better now, would more panels/traps improve it? Add more. The latest round of panels/traps did nothing to improve the sound; is it because I have to many, or not yet enough? Add more, ad infinitum!
As has been pointed out here, we'll never have a good reference. Why? We weren't there at the original recording. Even if we WERE, the original recording was made in a different room with different acoustics. The acoustics of the listening room will ALWAYS be overlaid on the acoustics of the original recording venue. The only way around it is to listen in an anechoic chamber (which I don't want my living room to become).
I reject the theory that the subwoofer makes the room sound asymmetrical. Why? Because the asymmetry was there prior to adding it. If I disconnected it, the room would still sound asymmetrical. Would more room treatments & bass traps help? Maybe, but maybe not. There is also the issue of aesthetics (Notice, Mr. Robinson, that I did NOT use the term "WAF!" LOL). Once I begin installing huge corner traps, I no longer have a "living room," I have that anechoic chamber again.
Everything is a compromise. Some things may never be perfect unless I could BUILD a listening room from scratch. I can't so it is what it is. What I might be willing to do is install some ceiling panels. Other than that (which I'm hoping would be suitably inconspicuous), I'm about done with room treatments.
As to the "clearing up of the upper bass frequencies," I'm hoping that the DSPeaker electronic EQ device will achieve that. If not, the question will be whether I can live with it as is or if I want to spend another pile of money on a second sub. I can answer that last question - I don't (at least, not at this time). Actually, the bass doesn't much bother me now. The added extension that the sub provides is a big enough thrill that I'm less picky about other things. Time may change that, but for now, I'm pretty satisfied.
Cheers! Boom
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 17, 2014 17:29:44 GMT -5
The heck with all this theory and nuance stuff...I want to know...what happened to the lovely flower grouping that was between the speakers in the last photo of boom's place?
Mark
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