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Post by garbulky on Oct 20, 2014 13:45:41 GMT -5
A few days ago, I visited my good friends, the B'zilla's once again. If you recall from my previous post his previous setup, I was all ga ga about. That was an Oppo 105, XSP-1, XPA-1 L's coupled to axiom audio m80 v4 and PSA XV15. Now he had a new piece that he wanted to experiment with and since neither of us had spent a lot of time with it connected to the XSP-1, this was going to be an interesting experiment! And the new gear was: <drum roll> The audioquest dragonfly v1.2 ! Which would be going in place of the Oppo 105. B'zilla used to own the old version sometime ago which he enjoyed but he noticed some flaws. He feels the new version is much improved. The dragonfly DAC costs $150 and is about the size of a flash drive which basically means it's smaller than your thumb! I felt the general quality of this machine is similar in sound signature to the XDA-1. However it's high sounds have less glare and is a bit more refined compared to the XDA-1. Now it sounds very different from the XDA-2 and at times the XDA-2 has a bit more natural tone but I would rate the dragonfly through the XSP-1 a bit better than the XDA-2 as well (dac direct to amp). The dragonfly in this config has more punch and ability to create more solid instruments. With the XDA-2 coupled to the an XSP-1, well the winner is not quite as clear but definitely do sound different. So in this case, it's a what flavor do you like matter. So let me get the cons right out of the way: When compared to the oppo - which costs nearly 10X as much... I felt the treble was a bit more prominent than it should be vs the oppo and the bass had a bit more punch/elevation to it than there should have been. I think the goal of the DAC's sound was to highlight details. As a result the tone of the female voice was just a little short of natural, and the bass just a tad punchy. There was also a small lack of some depth and fine details. Really my biggest critique was the tone which seemed different from what I was used to. So I guess it sounds like I gave it a bit of a fail rating right? Well not quite! First this DAC is $150. It runs of of the USB power of a laptop. And it is TINY. But the sound it produced was BIG. We listened to Jennifer warnes way down deep and the bass drum in it just completely swamped the room in an amazing manner. I mean WOW. At the same time, the dac didn't falter with producing other instruments clearly. You could hear these amazing slide guitar/ambient effects going very clearly. So I stopped worrying about tone, depth and fine details. And man did I have FUN! Just a whole lotta fun. B'zilla really liked it and I can see why. Also B'zilla did not quite like the laid back treble of the XSP-1 and in that case, the dragonfly surely did not dissapoint as the dragonfly is slightly more prominent with treble. He played several cuts and everytime I simply enjoyed myself. The sound had a lot of rhythm and the ability of the dac to produce clear instruments did not falter when there was a lot of stuff on stage it cut through in the treble without sounding like it was mushed up helped a lot with my enjoyment. The DAC did not have trouble with holding onto resolution while a bunch of stuff went on. I've repeatedly said there is no such thing as neutral sound - just good sound to the listener. As however neutral your sound is, it will get distorted to all hell by the room, speakers, and other electronics. So for instance if you like your sound a little exciting with more treble sizzle and some punch the dragonfly gets you there. If you like your sound nice and clean sounding, the dragonfly is definitely up your alley. If you like to simply lie back and enjoy sound the dragonfly really can kick it up a notch! I say this because if I hadn't heard the DC-1 and the oppo 105, I would not even have bothered to write any kind of cons as I wouldn't have been even able to tell it was there! A lot of people even with good setups, do not have the speaker resolution or room capability to be able to differentiate between a $150 dragonfly and an oppo 105. B'zilla and I just got lucky with our setups! And to be honest the difference isn't massive. And that shows just how far value oriented gear has come! At the beginning, the sound felt too narrow and constricted. The fix.....reposition the speakers. Never fails! We widened the axioms and adjusted the crossover and then the sound snapped into place much better. The soundstage was REALLY big. For the price market the dragonfly is aimed at, I think it suceeds very well. I can see why the darn thing is so popular. And I enjoyed hearing it! Frankyl I think it's incerdible what they can pull out of something so small and compact. After that enjoyable session, we took an enjoyable bike ride around B'zilla's neighborhood which was coupled with nice downhill slopes and loops that were also very enjoyable. We saw some interesting houses setup for halloween as well with all kinds of fun decorations. Plus the next day my wife and I joined them for a very nice barbeque situated on the greenery of a big campus. Thanks again for a very fun evening! We very much enjoyed it boomzilla !
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Post by garbulky on Oct 26, 2014 22:44:41 GMT -5
boomzillaAnother visit to the B'zilla's! This was a short one but B'zilla had been playing around with his setup and this time experimented with toeing in. In this case the axioms were toed slightly outward. When I sat down what I heard was very similar to what he described. "with the speakers toed even slightly out, the center image specificity is less, the depth of the center soundstage is significantly extended, and the images outside the speakers are enhanced. This (to me) extends the "sweet spot" where one can sit and still hear stereo imaging. It also seems to provide a broader sound stage. Is this unusual placement "the best" that my speakers can do in my room? I don't know for sure yet, but I think it's the best I've heard to date." For me what I heard was a mono sound. But let me finish.... I heard a mono speaker that appeared to have this amazing reach that wrapped around your ears (in a stereo field). So it was sort of like looking down a tunnel which sort of wrapped around you - like how you would imagine a magnetic field would look like. A dome shaped bubble. But with a nice mono center. So, no it wasn't mono bad, but mono good. Also it had some serious ambience. Image specificity was not quite as strong as the previous placement, but it had this echoey rich feel where I immediately asked him if he had his tube buffer engaged. A very open center was what I heard - similar to what the maggies 1.6 was able to do. And he mentioned what it did right was tone and he was correct. Some observation was that there was a slight veiling, or more of a heavy sound in the upper mids/lower treble which gives an analog and natural feel to the sound. This was similar to when I tried 12 db attenuators on my system. Just a slight reticience in the treble to give more of a mid-range concentration or a (very nice) wood instrument analog feel to it. So this is where I repeat - there isn't anything called neutral sound in reality. There is only good sound. And this was indeed good sound. It was definitely a flavor, everything sounded very different to what I was used to - especially as I've owned axiom audio m80 v2's for years - but also very enjoyable. Definitely how I would describe tube amps in the mid-range. The sound I would eventually end up picking would be the standard setup because that's what I'm used to....but I would also pick this placement whenever I was in the mood as the sound felt very meditative. You could just sit back and just enjoy it. A big depth feeling and a nice resonant feeling - unlike anything I've heard the axioms do. Interesitng that I never stumbled on it before! Also he appeared to have got the bass a bit better integrated. As b'zilla's room has openings on one side, though you couldn't tell the gargantuan powerhouse of a subwoofer was in the corner, there was a pressurization or overal feel on the non open subwoofer side, that gave it away. Here it was better integrated and smoother where I forgot the subwooer was there. I came away with something very special on loan: a yaqin tube buffer! Impressions to come! Also a music instumnent which looks beautiful and exciting but I am going to need the forums help on to figure out. Will post about that too (if B'zilla doesn't mind). Thanks again for a very enjoyable evening!!
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Post by garbulky on Nov 8, 2014 1:22:56 GMT -5
Alert!! This is the big one! The oppo 105 vs DC-1 contest! Ladies and Gentleman it is HERE! Today was certainly unusual. It started out with me meeting people in star wars costumes. Then free candy. A kid's spacefest fair. And then onto B'zila's house where he very kindly repaired my bike and gifted us some fantastic audio goodies. But....that is of course not the main event! <drumroll!> And I finally got around to bringing my DC-1 over there! Before we get started: Equipment. Oppo 105 DC-1 XSP-1 gen 2 XPA-1 L monoblocks Powersound XV15 Subwoofer. Axiom m80 V4 speakers ATS acoustics Room treatment XLR from end to end. If anybody has been following this thread, they will know that the oppo 105-XSP-1 gen 2-XPR-2/XPA-1 L setup was the best sound I had ever heard. Also that I just so happen to own the axiom m80 v3 speakers and the DC-1 so getting to hear the sound on his fantastic setup is really nice. My wife also joined us! The oppo 105 had one weakness. Which was without the XSP-1 in the loop, it didn't quite have the control and dynamics as it did with the XSP-1 gen 2. Paired together these two units are formidable in their sound quality. B'zilla had previously owned a DC-1 which he sold quickly as he found the sound rather mediocre. His comments stirred some controversy on the forum as people couldn't beleive it that there was a less than stellar review of the DC-1. The DC-1 is my favorite DAC and my not-so-faint praise can be found here with internal pics! : emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/33501/garbulkys-review-love-female-voiceSo I was eager to compare the two. And I was sure the XSP-1 and the resolution of the m80's would level the playing field between these two good DACs. Well it didn't go quite as I imagined. Speaking frankly, in his setup, the oppo 105 was simply superior in every way to the DC-1. This was interesting as the DC-1 is technically superior with dedicated dual dacs, and a dedicated power supply for only two channels of audio vs the 7.1 + ethernet + Blu ray drive + video of the oppo 105 all in one unit. Some things to note: The DC-1 sounded different in B'zilla's setup than mine. As it should - it is a different place! It's larger while mine is smaller and more nearfield. It retained some of the sound signature I'm used to, but for some reason it just didn't work out well in the DAC's favor. We had a few issues getting the right placement of speaker for the DC-1 as what worked with the oppo 105 didn't appear to work with the DC-1. But that was the results of the contest. The oppo came out as clearer, more realistic, dynamic and less muddy in the mid-range. I would interested to see how the oppo paired to an XSP-1 would fair in my home setup. I had a good time! Onto the pictures! Mood lighting. All that blue. A little brighter..... And now the reveal.... Now that looks GOOD! Note the DC-1 in the middle below the oppo. More angles These are seriously nice speakers! on Flickr Nice build quality
Thanks again boomzilla , I really enjoyed my visit!
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 8, 2014 11:48:20 GMT -5
Last night confirmed in spades every negative thing I've ever written about the Emotiva Stealth DC-1 DAC. The $150 Audioquest Dragonfly beat the DC-1 like the dog it is.
It isn't just my ears, either. Garbulky's comments included: "The Oppo sounds like musicians playing in the room - The DC-1 sounds like a tinny stereo recording of musicians." and "Even the Audioquest Dragonfly sounds better."
For the moment, ignoring Gar's comments, I heard the same things I heard when I first tried the Stealth - A recessed upper midrange (making female vocalists sound like they're at the back of a stage, rather than in the front), and a bright, brittle sounding treble.
Now Gar says that in his system, the Stealth DC-1 sounds "amazing," but in mine, it sounds really (REALLY) bad. Gar's system uses the same speakers as mine but a single generation back, and his Emotiva amp is just as good as mine. Our rooms, however, are significantly different. Gar listens almost "near field" due to the size of his room. My room has more reflected sound since the room is larger.
So the valid conclusion is that the Stealth DC-1 sound is dependent on the system into which it is inserted. In Gar's system, the Stealth is a King - In mine, it's the King's chamber pot contents.
Why there is such a difference in the DAC's performance is a mystery to me. But the performance difference IS there. The Stealth is just NOT a good match to my system. And it isn't just my ears that render that conclusion. Given the similarity of Gar's system (where the DAC does well) and mine (where it doesn't), I'm perplexed. Both Gar and I use "Red-Book" CDs (or rips of same) as sources; both Gar and I use Emotiva power amplifiers; both Gar and I use Axiom M80 speakers. Yet what a difference the DAC makes!
Thanks to Mr. & Mrs. Garbulky for an interesting time and for the evening's loan of their Emotiva Stealth DC-1. The Gars are welcome back any time! The Stealth DC-1 not so much...
Boomzilla
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Nov 8, 2014 12:42:07 GMT -5
Last night confirmed in spades every negative thing I've ever written about the Emotiva Stealth DC-1 DAC. The $150 Audioquest Dragonfly beat the DC-1 like the dog it is. It isn't just my ears, either. Garbulky's comments included: "The Oppo sounds like musicians playing in the room - The DC-1 sounds like a tinny stereo recording of musicians." and "Even the Audioquest Dragonfly sounds better." For the moment, ignoring Gar's comments, I heard the same things I heard when I first tried the Stealth - A recessed upper midrange (making female vocalists sound like they're at the back of a stage, rather than in the front), and a bright, brittle sounding treble. Now Gar says that in his system, the Stealth DC-1 sounds "amazing," but in mine, it sounds really (REALLY) bad. Gar's system uses the same speakers as mine but a single generation back, and his Emotiva amp is just as good as mine. Our rooms, however, are significantly different. Gar listens almost "near field" due to the size of his room. My room has more reflected sound since the room is larger. So the valid conclusion is that the Stealth DC-1 sound is dependent on the system into which it is inserted. In Gar's system, the Stealth is a King - In mine, it's the King's chamber pot contents. Why there is such a difference in the DAC's performance is a mystery to me. But the performance difference IS there. The Stealth is just NOT a good match to my system. And it isn't just my ears that render that conclusion. Given the similarity of Gar's system (where the DAC does well) and mine (where it doesn't), I'm perplexed. Both Gar and I use "Red-Book" CDs (or rips of same) as sources; both Gar and I use Emotiva power amplifiers; both Gar and I use Axiom M80 speakers. Yet what a difference the DAC makes! Thanks to Mr. & Mrs. Garbulky for an interesting time and for the evening's loan of their Emotiva Stealth DC-1. The Gars are welcome back any time! The Stealth DC-1 not so much... Boomzilla I think that the only valid conclusion is that each room should be treated as an integral part of any system. Your experience only proves this conclusion. "All things being equal, I'd rather be In Philadelphia " No, but really, all things being equal, the room is the variant. The gear has no idea what room it is in. My two cents my friend.
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Post by deltadube on Nov 8, 2014 13:07:48 GMT -5
how about a pic of the seating in the back of the room? im curious about that for acoustics 101 !!!
the seating in boomer's room seems out by the front pictures lets see the back ?
cheers.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Nov 8, 2014 13:18:39 GMT -5
how about a pic of the seating in the back of the room? im curious about that for acoustics 101 !!! the seating in boomer's room seems out by the front pictures lets see the back ? cheers. Seating is against the wall but for some reason, maybe the stairway, there is no real negative effect.
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Post by deltadube on Nov 8, 2014 14:22:09 GMT -5
seat at back or room is not good according to acoustics 101 .. the ancient Greeks knew this over 2500 yrs ago!!!
yes the study of sound is very old indeed..
basic stuff to start enjoying the room...
sitting at .382 or .618 the length of the room are the key golden spots..
back wall is not good at all...
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Post by ocezam on Nov 8, 2014 15:12:35 GMT -5
seat at back or room is not good... back wall is not good at all... Ditto
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 8, 2014 20:00:07 GMT -5
LOL - I wondered how long it would take for someone to blame the room, the sound absorbers, the setup, the speaker placement - ANYTHING but admit that the Stealth DC-1 isn't the greatest DAC in the world. Wasn't long!
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Nov 8, 2014 20:21:35 GMT -5
LOL - I wondered how long it would take for someone to blame the room, the sound absorbers, the setup, the speaker placement - ANYTHING but admit that the Stealth DC-1 isn't the greatest DAC in the world. Wasn't long! Wait a sec!! It didn't take me long at all,,,,he,,,he,,,,he,,,,,, you know now I own the DC-1 and do love it in my " Room" i havent heard the greatest DAC in the world, come to think of it,,,,,,I didn't pay for that one either! 8) But you must admit, in different rooms the same exact gear will sound different!! ive only heard a handful of DACs and this is the best I've heard in my room. deltadube and others do have a point when they say the best listening point is not against a wall, you know that I'm sure my friend. Every room has its limitations just as every setup, piece of gear, speaker, amp, etc. there is NO perfect setup!!,,,,,is there! i respectfully request that I may be allowed to update and refine my statement. Nick. 8)
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 8, 2014 21:46:26 GMT -5
You're right on multiple points, Nick. Against the wall is not the best listening position. Nevertheless, it's the only option in my room (which is why I have an absorber directly behind the couch). Further, any detriment caused by the room applies equally to all DACs. The Stealth DC-1 still scored last (and by a HUGE margin).
Second, you're not alone in saying that the Stealth DC-1 is the best you've heard in your system. Garbulky says the same. For some reason, though, it just sounds like hammered dog - doo in my room. Even Gar agrees.
So what's different? I couldn't say. What I can say is that in my system, the Stealth DC-1 just sounds mediocre (at best). So who is to believed? Those who say that the DC-1 is the best ever, or those, like myself, who hear the DAC's consistent and obvious shortcomings?
One of several things are happening:
1. Some rooms emphasize the DAC's deficiencies - other rooms disguise them 2. Some listeners are more sensitive to the DAC's deficiencies, others are less 3. Some associated equipment emphasizes the DAC's deficiencies, other equipment disguises them
What is undeniable is that the DAC itself DOES have deficiencies. No question about it, no room for debate left.
The "deniers" contend (and have from the beginning) that the DAC is flawless and world-class. It is not, and never has been.
if you're fortunate enough to love the DAC in spite of its issues, then I'm very happy for you! You could pay much, much more for what (in your system) would be less performance. In my system, however, the flaws of the DAC are emphasized (and consistently - using different electronics & different speakers). Therefore, I'm not a fan of the product.
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Nov 8, 2014 22:19:59 GMT -5
You're right on multiple points, Nick. Against the wall is not the best listening position. Nevertheless, it's the only option in my room (which is why I have an absorber directly behind the couch). Further, any detriment caused by the room applies equally to all DACs. The Stealth DC-1 still scored last (and by a HUGE margin). Second, you're not alone in saying that the Stealth DC-1 is the best you've heard in your system. Garbulky says the same. For some reason, though, it just sounds like hammered dog - doo in my room. Even Gar agrees. So what's different? I couldn't say. What I can say is that in my system, the Stealth DC-1 just sounds mediocre (at best). So who is to believed? Those who say that the DC-1 is the best ever, or those, like myself, who hear the DAC's consistent and obvious shortcomings? One of several things are happening: 1. Some rooms emphasize the DAC's deficiencies - other rooms disguise them 2. Some listeners are more sensitive to the DAC's deficiencies, others are less 3. Some associated equipment emphasizes the DAC's deficiencies, other equipment disguises them What is undeniable is that the DAC itself DOES have deficiencies. No question about it, no room for debate left. The "deniers" contend (and have from the beginning) that the DAC is flawless and world-class. It is not, and never has been. if you're fortunate enough to love the DAC in spite of its issues, then I'm very happy for you! You could pay much, much more for what (in your system) would be less performance. In my system, however, the flaws of the DAC are emphasized (and consistently - using different electronics & different speakers). Therefore, I'm not a fan of the product. Points well taken,,,,,,BUT, as in my first reply, sitting that close to the back wall, even with an absorber that I believe has no room to work or do any magic, does NOT HAVE that much of a bad temperament on the listener. Without being away from the wall, pull it out for sessions, I think your doing yourself and guests a disservice, just my two cents. I do believe your room would benefit so very much by doing so. I enjoy your posts very much, but let me add just one point please. thats why they make chocolate and vanilla!!,,,,he,,,,he,,,,he,,,,,, 8)
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 8, 2014 22:38:48 GMT -5
Yep.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 22:38:56 GMT -5
I think you guys must have mixed up the oppo and the dc-1..... there's no way this could be true. Oh and love the look on those axioms that cherry/rosenut is gorgeous.
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Post by boomzilla on Nov 8, 2014 22:48:03 GMT -5
Oops - You caught us! LOL
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 23:14:13 GMT -5
LOL - I wondered how long it would take for someone to blame the room, the sound absorbers, the setup, the speaker placement - ANYTHING but admit that the Stealth DC-1 isn't the greatest DAC in the world. Wasn't long! Boom, were any headphone comparisons done?
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Post by wiskers on Nov 8, 2014 23:15:54 GMT -5
I picked up a pair of M22's in Russian maple and in my room these sound incredible, even my wife like em. The M22's are the largest bookshelf speakers axiom makes.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 8, 2014 23:19:34 GMT -5
Also, what about letting Gar take your 105 to test it in his system against his DC-1? Would be interesting to hear about the result on that.
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Post by brubacca on Nov 9, 2014 9:04:05 GMT -5
Boom,
Have you ever heard the DC-1 in Garbulky's house? How did it sound there? Based on your conclusions in your room it would be interesting.
I guess that is why there are 500 audio manufacturers or electronics and at least that number of speaker manufacturers ( numbers completely made up).
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