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Post by dac0964 on Oct 2, 2013 19:42:21 GMT -5
I believe the 'gain' of the 1L is lower than many other EMO amps...that would account for the higher vol level setting for the same perceived loudness. Some amps yes they have different gain but the 1L and my UPA-200 both have 29dB gains. That's why I'm surprised at the same volume setting on my XDA (as the pre-amp) the loudness levels that im hearing between these amps are different, the 1Ls are softer.  |
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Post by dac0964 on Oct 3, 2013 1:08:33 GMT -5
I finally was able to do some critical listening early this evening with some hi-res music files. The XPA-1Ls have finally shown what their capable of. I'll describe it as best as I can since I'm not very adept at using common audiophile lingo. The first thing I immediately noticed is the clarity of the vocals. The UPA-200 was good too but in the 1Ls they are more pronounced without being hard on the ears. I guess this is what in the audiophile industry would say as 'being in the room' kind of experience. The music is also more transparent. I could distinctly pick-up or hear more instruments quite easily than with the UPA-200, even the smallest triangle instrument. Whether that is because of the class A nature of the 1Ls or because they're monos I'm not sure. But I like it very much. Lastly, the 1Ls have much better and tighter bass control.
Tomorrow when I have time I will listen to my CDs and see if the experience will be the same.
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Post by garbulky on Oct 3, 2013 2:48:36 GMT -5
If you look at the AP test reports the gain structure of the UPA-200 is 29.84db while the XPA-1 L is 29.47
Still more or less 29 db but a subtle difference.
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Post by dac0964 on Oct 3, 2013 11:34:45 GMT -5
If you look at the AP test reports the gain structure of the UPA-200 is 29.84db while the XPA-1 L is 29.47 Still more or less 29 db but a subtle difference. You think that 0.37dB difference in gain is significant enough for the difference in volume level that I hear? Like I mentioned earlier, I use to listen with the XDA volume set at -30dB. Now with the 1Ls, I have to crank up the XDA to -26dB to get the same loudness. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 3, 2013 11:48:45 GMT -5
If you look at the AP test reports the gain structure of the UPA-200 is 29.84db while the XPA-1 L is 29.47 Still more or less 29 db but a subtle difference. You think that 0.37dB difference in gain is significant enough for the difference in volume level that I hear? Like I mentioned earlier, I use to listen with the XDA volume set at -30dB. Now with the 1Ls, I have to crank up the XDA to -26dB to get the same loudness. Generally 1 dB is the smallest difference in SPL that a human can hear, there is some variation in this based on volume and frequency, but this is basically the case. It's not likely a 0.37 dB difference would account for an audible difference in volume, but it's slightly possible that one might think the louder amp was 'better' (some reviewers feel you should match within 0.1 dB to give a fair comparison). |
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Post by dac0964 on Oct 3, 2013 12:06:08 GMT -5
You think that 0.37dB difference in gain is significant enough for the difference in volume level that I hear? Like I mentioned earlier, I use to listen with the XDA volume set at -30dB. Now with the 1Ls, I have to crank up the XDA to -26dB to get the same loudness. Generally 1 dB is the smallest difference in SPL that a human can hear, there is some variation in this based on volume and frequency, but this is basically the case. It's not likely a 0.37 dB difference would account for an audible difference in volume, but it's slightly possible that one might think the louder amp was 'better' (some reviewers feel you should match within 0.1 dB to give a fair comparison). No, in this case, I didn't think the louder amp (UPA) is better. It's just louder which puzzles me because they have almost the same gains. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 3, 2013 12:34:52 GMT -5
Generally 1 dB is the smallest difference in SPL that a human can hear, there is some variation in this based on volume and frequency, but this is basically the case. It's not likely a 0.37 dB difference would account for an audible difference in volume, but it's slightly possible that one might think the louder amp was 'better' (some reviewers feel you should match within 0.1 dB to give a fair comparison). No, in this case, I didn't think the louder amp (UPA) is better. It's just louder which puzzles me because they have almost the same gains. That is odd, I reread your posts and didn't see this but are you using RCA cables to both amps? Or possibly RCA to the UPA-200 and XLR to the XPA-1L, I just want to make sure this isn't the case as it could cause a variation in volume. |
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Post by dac0964 on Oct 3, 2013 13:09:50 GMT -5
No, in this case, I didn't think the louder amp (UPA) is better. It's just louder which puzzles me because they have almost the same gains. That is odd, I reread your posts and didn't see this but are you using RCA cables to both amps? Or possibly RCA to the UPA-200 and XLR to the XPA-1L, I just want to make sure this isn't the case as it could cause a variation in volume. The UPA as you know only has unbalanced output so I was using RCA, and now I'm using balanced XLR cables on the 1Ls. Could this be the reason? I always thought that XLRs are better. |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 3, 2013 13:25:04 GMT -5
That is odd, I reread your posts and didn't see this but are you using RCA cables to both amps? Or possibly RCA to the UPA-200 and XLR to the XPA-1L, I just want to make sure this isn't the case as it could cause a variation in volume. The UPA as you know only has unbalanced output so I was using RCA, and now I'm using balanced XLR cables on the 1Ls. Could this be the reason? I always thought that XLRs are better. On the XDA-1 the RCA's were for some reason louder. (I used an XLR to RCA adapter for this so there might be some tomfoolery with the adapter I used causing that). |
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Post by dac0964 on Oct 3, 2013 13:52:25 GMT -5
The UPA as you know only has unbalanced output so I was using RCA, and now I'm using balanced XLR cables on the 1Ls. Could this be the reason? I always thought that XLRs are better. On the XDA-1 the RCA's were for some reason louder. (I used an XLR to RCA adapter for this so there might be some tomfoolery with the adapter I used causing that). Interesting... I'm using XDA-2 and obviously I was using the RCA output to the UPA. Now, with the new amps that I have (XPA-1Ls) I switched to balanced XLRs. That might be it... thanks. This is really no big deal to me. I am just curious why. I like my new amps.  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 3, 2013 14:08:47 GMT -5
Keep using the balanced lines, that's the way to go. I think the balanced ins on the 1L's might have a lower sensitivity, but it could be as garbulky speculates that the balanced out on the XDA is lower. Maybe Keith will let us know what's going on but either way you're good to go!
Edit: The XPA-1L product page only lists one sensitivity so my speculation may be wrong. Either way, nothing to worry about.
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Post by garbulky on Oct 3, 2013 14:32:44 GMT -5
On the XDA-1 the RCA's were for some reason louder. (I used an XLR to RCA adapter for this so there might be some tomfoolery with the adapter I used causing that). Interesting... I'm using XDA-2 and obviously I was using the RCA output to the UPA. Now, with the new amps that I have (XPA-1Ls) I switched to balanced XLRs. That might be it... thanks. This is really no big deal to me. I am just curious why. I like my new amps. You could try using the RCA cables to the XPA-1 L see if you notice any difference. |
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Post by dac0964 on Oct 3, 2013 15:41:40 GMT -5
Yeah, I'll try that and see if my initial perception was correct. Thanks guys for your input.
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Post by leonski on Oct 3, 2013 18:10:11 GMT -5
'XLR' = Balanced, IS...or rather CAN be better in a complete system which uses all balanced circuitry.
Converting back and forth can cause other problems. Input impedance MATCH between sides is critical to how well a balanced circuit works.
The XSP-1 is attractive because it IS a fully balanced design in-to-out. My DAC is balanced out....but probably NOT internally balanced while the other input to the preamp would be single ended and not matter because it is TV sound / XM-Sirus radio of only so-so quality to begin with.
Match that up with a proper balanced amplifier design and there 'ya go!
The difference between unbalanced (single ended) and balanced (XLR) SHOULD be 6db.
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bootman
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Typing useless posts on internet forums....
Posts: 9,358
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Post by bootman on Oct 3, 2013 19:42:15 GMT -5
'XLR' = Balanced, IS...or rather CAN be better in a complete system which uses all balanced circuitry. Converting back and forth can cause other problems. Input impedance MATCH between sides is critical to how well a balanced circuit works. The XSP-1 is attractive because it IS a fully balanced design in-to-out. My DAC is balanced out....but probably NOT internally balanced while the other input to the preamp would be single ended and not matter because it is TV sound / XM-Sirus radio of only so-so quality to begin with. Match that up with a proper balanced amplifier design and there 'ya go! The difference between unbalanced (single ended) and balanced (XLR) SHOULD be 6db. Only with regards to level. To really be "better" it also needs to be fully balanced or differential throughout the entire signal chain. This includes not only the amp but preamp and source! |
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Post by leonski on Oct 3, 2013 23:49:43 GMT -5
One additional point.
Balanced....even a complete end-to-end implementation doesn't HAVE to be better. As usual, better is simply better. Even if it turns out to be single ended.
A balanced system will have an (or should, anyway) advantage for long runs. My amps could be as far as 15ft->20ft from the preamp which may be at a distance
which favors balanced.
That's why, in another thread, I asked what EMO amps were Really fully balanced........
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 4, 2013 21:15:29 GMT -5
That's why, in another thread, I asked what EMO amps were Really fully balanced........ I think only the "1" amps are fully balanced; XPA-1, XPA-1L, XPR-1. In this case with balanced source and amp, the only reason to use RCAs would be to test the 'level' issue. |
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Post by leonski on Oct 4, 2013 22:14:31 GMT -5
I believe you hit the Balanced nail right on the head. That means if I want to Biamp my panels, I've got 3 choices, of which the 1L is the most affordable......and not a bad choice, at all.
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