XPA-5 Not very impressed

[brendelac]

This is a subsequent post from my original posting here

I purchased a used gen-1 XPA-5 to power my Energy Veritas 2.3i towers, 2.0Ci center and 2.0Ri surrounds with a Denon AVR-3312 as a pre-amp. I was happy with their sound, but doing a few minutes of googling, it is widely advised that these speakers "need" a good amp. That combined with the Emotiva reputation led to my purchase of the amp.

It definitely adds something to the sound quality - bass is the most noticeable aspect and the ability to drive them cleanly at very loud SPL levels, but as much as I like loud, the 3312 went as loud as I required (not quite as cleanly though.) All these night-and-day differences reviews that I've been reading though are far far from what I am hearing. If I was to rate the sound on a scale of 1 to 100 before and after the XPA-5, I'd say it is 5 points higher after the addition.

There seems to be some debate on the actual efficiency of these speakers. I've read 90dB+ @ 8ohms, but the following link put the 2.4s at 85dB @ 4ohms with the difference being an added woofer on the 2.4s compared to the 2.3s.

www.soundandvision.com/content/energy-veritas-v24-surround-speaker-system-measurements

I wanted to like (and keep) this amp and still do, but it's hard to understand how I can read a review like the one below and feel nowhere near the same about my experience.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/33794/denon-avr-xpa-5

[copperpipe]

Well your Denon probably isn't the best pre-amp out there, for a start. I used to own a Marantz (same company as Denon) sr5004 which I used mainly to convert digital to my little minix, but I am far more impressed with my setup by getting rid of the marantz and using either my motu or focusrite as a DAC instead.

[doc1963]

Nov 14, 2013 20:01:54 GMT -5 brendelac said:

This is a subsequent post from my original posting here

I purchased a used gen-1 XPA-5 to power my Energy Veritas 2.3i towers, 2.0Ci center and 2.0Ri surrounds with a Denon AVR-3312 as a pre-amp. I was happy with their sound, but doing a few minutes of googling, it is widely advised that these speakers "need" a good amp. That combined with the Emotiva reputation led to my purchase of the amp.

It definitely adds something to the sound quality - bass is the most noticeable aspect and the ability to drive them cleanly at very loud SPL levels, but as much as I like loud, the 3312 went as loud as I required (not quite as cleanly though.) All these night-and-day differences reviews that I've been reading though are far far from what I am hearing. If I was to rate the sound on a scale of 1 to 100 before and after the XPA-5, I'd say it is 5 points higher after the addition.

There seems to be some debate on the actual efficiency of these speakers. I've read 90dB+ @ 8ohms, but this link put the 2.4s at 85dB @ 4ohms with the difference being an added woofer on the 2.4s compared to the 2.3s.

I wanted to like (and keep) this amp and still do, but it's hard to understand how I can read a review like the one below and feel nowhere near the same about my experience.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/33794/denon-avr-xpa-5

IMO, you've answered you own question. Those are the properties of a "good" amp, which the XPA-5 certainly is. While I can't comment on the variances between one person's experience over another, I can say that (based on your rating scale) a "5" is a pretty hefty improvement.

You certainly "could" expand upon your ability of playing cleanly at even higher output levels by splitting up the amps (XPA-2/XPA-3), going multiple monoblock (XPA-1 x 5) or simply moving up to the XPR-5. However, I still seriously doubt that you would ever achieve that "night and day" difference. Especially now that you're coming off of an amp as nice as the XPA-5.

However, before you invest in another amp, I would take copperpipe's advice and look into another pre/pro. The UMC-200 (who's excellent sound quality has been well documented) and the upcoming XMC-1 are excellent options and a good place to start.

Hope this helps…..

[Priapulus]

I had a similar experience when I got a xpa-5. The tonal quality was about the same as my previous 10 year old amp (which is to say that both were almost flawless). The new amp goes louder without distortion and is dead quiet when no music was playing; but tonally similar. To gain the necessary sensitivity to have the reported orgasmic experience, I suspect you must be a frequent imbiber of EMO-Fanboy Kool-Aid. If you suspect my hearing is impaired, I should mention that I am a classical musician...

That said, I'm about to replace my Bryston with an XPA-2. I don't expect a tonal improvement, but I like the XLR connectors, and want it to visually match my other EMO gear.

Sincerely,

[Deleted]

Nov 14, 2013 20:01:54 GMT -5 brendelac said:

This is a subsequent post from my original posting here

I purchased a used gen-1 XPA-5 to power my Energy Veritas 2.3i towers, 2.0Ci center and 2.0Ri surrounds with a Denon AVR-3312 as a pre-amp. I was happy with their sound, but doing a few minutes of googling, it is widely advised that these speakers "need" a good amp. That combined with the Emotiva reputation led to my purchase of the amp.

It definitely adds something to the sound quality - bass is the most noticeable aspect and the ability to drive them cleanly at very loud SPL levels, but as much as I like loud, the 3312 went as loud as I required (not quite as cleanly though.) All these night-and-day differences reviews that I've been reading though are far far from what I am hearing. If I was to rate the sound on a scale of 1 to 100 before and after the XPA-5, I'd say it is 5 points higher after the addition.

There seems to be some debate on the actual efficiency of these speakers. I've read 90dB+ @ 8ohms, but this link put the 2.4s at 85dB @ 4ohms with the difference being an added woofer on the 2.4s compared to the 2.3s.

I wanted to like (and keep) this amp and still do, but it's hard to understand how I can read a review like the one below and feel nowhere near the same about my experience.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/33794/denon-avr-xpa-5

The night and day difference people just make me laugh. I've never heard a night and day difference between any electronics, ever. There are subtle differences but the people that hear these huge drastic differences must have broken amps...

[novisnick]

Nov 14, 2013 20:45:47 GMT -5 Priapulus said:

I had a similar experience when I got a xpa-5. The tonal quality was about the same as my previous 10 year old amp (which is to say that both were almost flawless). The new amp goes louder without distortion and is dead quiet when no music was playing; but tonally similar. To gain the necessary sensitivity to have the reported orgasmic experience, I suspect you must be a frequent imbiber of EMO-Fanboy Kool-Aid. If you suspect my hearing is impaired, I should mention that I am a classical musician...

That said, I'm about to replace my Bryston with an XPA-2. I don't expect a tonal improvement, but I like the XLR connectors, and want it to visually match my other EMO gear.

Sincerely,

Ludwig van Beethoven was deaf!
i just had to say it!


He,,,,,He,,,,,He,,,,,

Peace,

Nick

why the XPA-2 and not another? Just asking.

[Priapulus]

> Ludwig van Beethoven was deaf!
> i just had to say it!
> He,,,,,He,,,,,He,,,,,

...and I know for a fact that he had NO EMO gear. He was a composer.

> why the XPA-2 and not another? Just asking.

"I like the XLR connectors, and want it to visually match my other EMO gear."
The xpa2 is for my stereo (and the theatre mains), and will balance my xpa-5. It replaces they Bryston, see my gear below.

[Gary Cook]

The 3312 is rated at 125 WPC, so probably around 95 WPC all channels driven while the XPA -5 is 200 WPC all channels driven. Double the watts is recognised as a 3 db increase in volume. So if you were listening to the 3312 at 100 db, which is pretty loud (often described as a jack hammer at 1 metre) the XPA-5 will be around 103 db. That could be conceived as 3 points in 100, give it another 2 for clarity and I can see how 5 points could be a given rating.

What I found with the XPA-5 (I also went straight from a 125 WPC Denon AVR) was more information (sound) at the same volume. To my ears it wasn't 5 points in 100, more like 25, with speakers rated at 91 db. But I would rarely listen to a full movie at more than 70 db, with no change in volume with the XPA-5 installed. So the increased clarity, punch, hammer, drive, presence or whatever it's called, was very noticeable. But while the power amp upgrade as that noticeable, the change from the Denon AVR for processing to the UMC-200 was greater, by several multitudes.

Only you know what your ears hear and your brain perceives.
Cheers
Gary

[bootman]

Your speakers make up >90% of the sound.
You need to keep perpective when it comes to everything else.

You wasn't that crazy about your speakers to begin with.
emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/33525/new-guy

Not really surprised the amps didn't make much of a difference.

So are you really not impressed with the amp or your speakers?

[PGT]

What bootman said. I posted on another forum about running a pair of B&W Nautilus 801's off a $400 Yamaha and people thought I was crazy. Well...maybe, but...it sounded better than a lower level pair of speakers with expensive electronics on it.

- Sometimes the terseness of my reply can't be blamed on my phone.

[creimes]

To each their own of experiencing different +'s or -'s in our systems, I find my speakers pretty revealing and when I went from my Yamaha receiver to my UPA-1 amps I noticed a big improvement and everything since has been smaller steps being either good or bad.

Chad

[PGT]

I found increased sibilance when using an LPA-1 on my Yamaha. The gain structure also changed quite a bit.

- Sometimes the terseness of my reply can't be blamed on my phone.

[brendelac]

Nov 14, 2013 21:41:45 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

But while the power amp upgrade as that noticeable, the change from the Denon AVR for processing to the UMC-200 was greater, by several multitudes.

I've considered a pre-amp, but am cautious about putting out even more money for what I suspect might be minor improvements.

[novisnick]

If you really want extreme improvement and noticeability purchase a XSP-1. A bigger upgrade in SQ you'd be hard pressed to find! At any price!

Then ,,,, sit back with your favorite tunes and gulp the cool aid.


Peace,

Nick

[brendelac]

Nov 15, 2013 0:20:21 GMT -5 novisnick said:

If you really want extreme improvement and noticeability purchase a XSP-1. A bigger upgrade in SQ you'd be hard pressed to find! At any price!

Then ,,,, sit back with your favorite tunes and gulp the cool aid.


Peace,

Nick

I wish I could justify $1k on a 2 channel pre-amp

[stsandhu]

You'll get lots of different advice and different approaches to tackling your dissatisfaction with the XPA-5. Ultimately, a small consensus will build around one approach. You'll need to sort through it all and see what you want to throw your money at.

I'm about to embark on my third subwoofer change, and each has been a clear upgrade over the previous one. Your situation is a a little different and, perhaps, the law of diminishing return is at play here.

I think N8DOGG hit the nail on the head; a lot of these HUGE improvements are more imagined than real. They are improvements, but I wonder if they're the scope of change that people claim. Myself, going from bookshelves to towers, from an AVR to separates, from no room treatments to a treated room, I can tell you that none of the upgrades has come anywhere near a wow factor. Incremental, at best, is how I would explain the improvements.

Nonetheless, I'm looking forward to integrating the XDA-2 into my system to see what all the fuss has been about . This hobby is supposed to be fun, and the fun is in trying different stuff and trying to coax that little bit more out of your system. Quite simply, that may require throwing $$ at the problem through trial and error until you're satisfied.

Cheers,

S.T.

[frenchyfranky]

Nov 14, 2013 20:01:54 GMT -5 brendelac said:

This is a subsequent post from my original posting here


I wanted to like (and keep) this amp and still do, but it's hard to understand how I can read a review like the one below and feel nowhere near the same about my experience.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/thread/33794/denon-avr-xpa-5

Hearing and smelling (tasting) are probably the two senses with the higher perceptive difference between people. You could not rate your perception vs the other people. What is very tasty for another can be fade for you.

[Deleted]

Your AVR-3312CI was tested by HT magazine at:

"Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
0.1% distortion at 82.9 watts" 

The XPA-5 is rated by Emotiva at:

Power output (all channels driven): 
300 watts RMS @ 4 ohm (0.1% THD)
200 watts RMS @ 8 ohm (0.1% THD)(AP tested at 208 from my notes)


I couldn't find a review on the Energy Veritas 2.3i speakers and their impedance.  The Denon 27 lb AVR's amps are most likely not too strong into 4 ohms.  We can compare the 83 watts of the 3312 versus 208 tested watts of the XPA-5.   This is a volume increase of 4 decibels for the 73 lb XPA-5.

The weight difference is huge and a significant indication of the build quality and amp strength of the XPA-5.  It also produces in excess of 300 watts into 4 ohms.  Many high quality speakers drop into the 4 ohm range (not sure about your Energy's).  The Denon is probably very limp into 4 ohms and might even overheat or shut down when driven hard into 4 ohms.  The real advantage of the XPA-5 is the reserve power available for instantaneous dynamic peaks.  You might not fully and audibly appreciate this until you playback movies or music with very dynamic loud volume when you do need the extra power to prevent the amps from going into audibly distorted amp clipping.  The extra power is also need for larger rooms and reference level loudness.  I have owned my XPA-5 for almost 5 years and plan to keep it for many more years even for new speakers.  It is a superb brute!   

Please do your amp comparisons using Blu-Ray movies in Dolby True HD or DTS HD Master Audio sound.  For multi-channel music try SACD, DVD-Audio or DVD music videos in Dolby Digital.  For two channel CD's try HDCD's.  This should provide a clearly audible improvement.

  
  

[emovac]

How much have you tested/listened to the new combination? Suggest you give it a couple of weeks (or more) and audition a variety of material you are very familiar with.

As always, "YMMV."

[garbulky]

I find the source to bring a bigger difference than the amps do. But the amps need to be upto snuff first.
For instance
I have the UPA-2. I've used the XPA-2 with the XDA-1.
The XPA-2 is a better amp. The most noticeable thing was that it was faster. It also sounded more precise in the soundstage.

However I used the DC-1 DAC. I found the difference that the DC-1 bought to be more of an upgrade connected to my UPA-2 than the XDA-1 connected (via USP-1) to the XPA-2.
Of course it is a generalization that doesn't apply everywhere. But it's what I've found for my setup.

You know what I found bought just as big if not more of a difference with the DC-1? Using room treatments.
I suggest trying them out.
www.atsacoustics.com/panels
Also just as big of a difference....speaker and room setup. If your speakers aren't positioned right you aren't going to get sound that differentiates as well as it could. In my system, I found simple changing the speaker positioning by just a few degrees in toe in and moving them slightly farther apart or closer, or moving it away from walls, or removing obstacles between me and the speakers like cofee tables to have a REALLY big difference. Bigger than going to different amps.
Also I noticed if these things weren't performed, I heard very little difference in my upgrades.

Also...you've tried the XPA-5 and you weren't too imrpessed.
True. Nobody can deny that. This is definitely your experience.
Use it for another week straight. Then go back to the reciever and see if you notice any other differences.
If you don't, the answer is that in your current system with your source and speakers and setup you aren't getting as big of a benefit as the money you put in. If you don't want to try out the other stuff like speaker positioning, room treatments and adding a great source - that's fine - not everybody wants to spend time throwing money and time at something that isn't working out in the first place. Some have noticed very little differences when they upgraded. And I think that's valid. For those people and you - I suggest a return or a resale to recoup the loss.

Meanwhile if you would like some suggestions, post a picture of your room and speaker setup. Make sure to include your couch in it as well so we can see the whole setup. We may be able to provide somethings that may help.

Good luck!