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Post by milsap195 on Nov 17, 2013 18:28:42 GMT -5
Do you prefer a tube or SS pre with your tube amplifier. Seeing what experience anybody might have?
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Post by 1960broookwood on Nov 17, 2013 19:08:04 GMT -5
I've tried both and now use a stepped attenuator--so I guess neither.  |
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Post by garbulky on Nov 17, 2013 21:57:58 GMT -5
I've tried both and now use a stepped attenuator--so I guess neither. Very interesting. Could you elaborate? What kind of stepped attenuator and how do you integrate it into your setup? Is that complicated to do? Is it DIY or did you purchase it? Does it have the same "negatives" as passive pre-amplifiers? (i.e. slight lack of dynamics, sensitive to wire length). |
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Post by pedrocols on Nov 17, 2013 22:06:39 GMT -5
Well basically I think it works like the mini amp with the volume or gain control.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Nov 18, 2013 1:36:05 GMT -5
I've had both tube and SS preamps with my tube amps, they have all sounded excellent. I feel right now the XSP-1 is the best fit in my system and sounds great.
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Nov 18, 2013 2:19:18 GMT -5
A "passive preamp" can be either a variable resistor or a multi-tapped transformer (the transformer ones cost a LOT, and have frequency response and distortion issues). A "resistor passive preamp" can use either a potentiometer (variable resistor) or a stepped attenuator (which is several resistors attached to a selector switch) - both are electrically equivalent in most ways. The benefit to a stepped attenuator is that it can be designed to that the two channels match very well (as compared to even the best quality potentiometer). The drawbacks are that the stepped attenuator costs a lot more, has more moving parts, and can only have a limited number of steps (and, the more steps you want, the more it costs). Our XSP-1, and the DC-1, and our pre/pros actually use a form of stepped attenuator - implemented inside an IC with resistors and low-distortion electronic switches. This way we can offer excellent channel tracking, and lots of steps, and still keep the cost to manageable levels. I've tried both and now use a stepped attenuator--so I guess neither. Very interesting. Could you elaborate? What kind of stepped attenuator and how do you integrate it into your setup? Is that complicated to do? Is it DIY or did you purchase it? Does it have the same "negatives" as passive pre-amplifiers? (i.e. slight lack of dynamics, sensitive to wire length). |
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Post by 1960broookwood on Nov 18, 2013 17:01:31 GMT -5
I bought a modded Dynaco ST-70 amp and PAS-3 pre from a local enthusiast/electrical engineer that was upgrading--it is a 21 step unit and was installed at the time I purchased it. They both were rebuilt with all the goodies from these guys : www.tubes4hifi.com/home.html. The PAS-3 pre connected to the tube amp was just too much "tube" sound--it sounded thick and veiled for lack of a better term. Switching to a NAD 1020b cleaned the sound up and brought out the natural musical tone and wide and deep sound-stage that many associate with tube equipment. The PAS-3 connected to a SS amp has the same effect but is not as pleasing to my ears--YMMV. I run towers with powered subs so base management and loudness control isn't really needed--I just dumped the pre entirely and run straight from the source with no apparent side effects . As a side note I bought this combo for about the cost of the upgrade components. I am ready to upgrade to monoblocks but waiting to see what EMO has in the works and how it compares to the offerings from Jolida. Building this stuff in your shop isn't that tough but it has no resale value.  |
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Post by milsap195 on Nov 18, 2013 17:06:54 GMT -5
As a side note I bought this combo for about the cost of the upgrade components. I am ready to upgrade to monoblocks but waiting to see what EMO has in the works and how it compares to the offerings from Jolida. Building this stuff in your shop isn't that tough but it has no resale value. [/quote] I have purchased all my tube gear used, you just take to big of a hit if you pay retail. |
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Post by ocezam on Nov 20, 2013 10:17:43 GMT -5
The PAS-3 pre connected to the tube amp was just too much "tube" sound--it sounded thick and veiled for lack of a better term. Switching to a NAD 1020b cleaned the sound up and brought out the natural musical tone and wide and deep sound-stage that many associate with tube equipment. I had much the same situation with a XiangSheng 728A preamp connected to my Jolidas. Everything had a very slight "reverb" feel to it. I sold the XiangSheng 728A and now run my Tubes straight from my XDA-2. Perfect! |
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kazoo
Emo VIPs 
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Post by kazoo on Nov 20, 2013 11:08:38 GMT -5
I like using a tube pre in front of a SS amp or a tube amp. I tried both, you just need to find the right one. One thing about a tube pre is that with different tubes you can tailer the sound to your liking.
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Post by jmasterj on Nov 20, 2013 15:27:36 GMT -5
I was reluctant to chime in because the question was sort of specific. He asked which preamp SS, or Tube do you prefer with your tube amps? He did however go on to say he wanted to see what experience anyone might have.
So the tube amp I own is a all tube integrated amp. It has a tube preamp section and tube power amp section. I like this little amp a lot. Now I also own a Hybrid tube integrated amp with a tube pre amp section mated to a SS power amp. I really like this combo too. So much so, that the new Emotiva mono block amps I'm purchasing during the current sale will most likely be mated with a tube pre amp. So far with my limited experience with tube gear I find I'm happy with either scenario.
If you ask me to compare them I'd have to say that's almost like comparing apples to oranges. They both have unique sound qualities. It's the little differences that I find so fascinating.
Now if you ask which I prefer between the all tube amp vs. the SS/tube combo. I enjoy them both, because of their unique sound qualities.
If I ever decided to buy better quality tube amps I'll probably try them with a SS preamp, and a tube preamp. I might end up keeping them both. j
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Post by milsap195 on Nov 20, 2013 16:20:36 GMT -5
I ordered a DC-1 today and it is supposed to be here tomorrow. It will be intesting to see if there is much of a difference between the it and the xsp-1 when used a a preamp.
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Nov 20, 2013 16:54:38 GMT -5
"Tube sound" is an additive process. Tubes add a specific coloration, and the more tubes you have in your system, the more of that sound you add to what you play. While specific pieces of tube equipment may sound more or less "tubey" (depending on how they are designed), and a given piece of tube equipment may sound different with different tubes in it, the process is ALWAYS additive. (Use two pieces of equipment with tubes, and the "tubeyness" of both will be added to the signal; there is nothing that can REMOVE tubeyness; at most you can avoid adding more). A tube power amp will typically make more of a difference than a tube preamp. Any piece of tube equipment added to the signal chain is going to add a smoothness to the upper frequencies and the midrange (to some degree) - because of the way the tubes themselves sound. In addition, because a tube power amp also has an output transformer, it will have an additional (and usually quite noticeable) effect on the bass. Tube power amps have a high output impedance, which results in a low damping factor; and this interacts with the speaker to alter the bass performance. With speakers designed for use with tube amps, this effect may be minimal; but with modern speakers designed to be used with amplifiers with high damping factors, the result is often more bass - but bass which is characterized (by those who don't like it) as "flabby". Because a solid state amp (or preamp) is usually quite neutral, it isn't going to add anything to the sound - but it won't subtract anything either - so choose tube gear to change the sound... and solid state gear to NOT change it. The short answer to the question is that adding a tube preamp to a tube power amp will probably make it sound somewhat "tubier", while adding a solid state preamp will probably make little to no difference. (Think of the tube equipment as "colored glass" and the solid state as "clear glass"; adding colored glass to a stack of window panes changes the overall color; adding clear glass does not.) I was reluctant to chime in because the question was sort of specific. He asked which preamp SS, or Tube do you prefer with your tube amps? He did however go on to say he wanted to see what experience anyone might have. So the tube amp I own is a all tube integrated amp. It has a tube preamp section and tube power amp section. I like this little amp a lot. Now I also own a Hybrid tube integrated amp with a tube pre amp section mated to a SS power amp. I really like this combo too. So much so, that the new Emotiva mono block amps I'm purchasing during the current sale will most likely be mated with a tube pre amp. So far with my limited experience with tube gear I find I'm happy with either scenario. If you ask me to compare them I'd have to say that's almost like comparing apples to oranges. They both have unique sound qualities. It's the little differences that I find so fascinating. Now if you ask which I prefer between the all tube amp vs. the SS/tube combo. I enjoy them both, because of their unique sound qualities. If I ever decided to buy better quality tube amps I'll probably try them with a SS preamp, and a tube preamp. I might end up keeping them both. j |
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Post by brubacca on Nov 20, 2013 17:35:55 GMT -5
So I have a friend who is into guitars. He was telling me about how different woods sound different. So you could play the same song on a different guitar and it would sound different. Each venue that a person goes into and hears music imparts its own sonic character onto the performance. If I toured with Diana Krall this year and heard each performance and if she performed exactly the same at each performance it would sound different at each venue. Personally wouldn't care as long as I actually enjoyed the performance. Wouldn't each venue color the sound? Wouldn't each guitar of different woods color the sound?
All this talk about accurate vs not just doesn't seem to ring as important to me. I care about enjoying the music. As long as Diana Krall doesn't sound like Louis Armstrong I personally don't care about being 100% accurate to the recording engineers mix. I personally care about how much enjoyment I get out of the music.
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Post by Boomzilla on Nov 20, 2013 17:41:36 GMT -5
I've heard tube preamps and amps that I couldn't have told from solid state with a blindfold on. I've also heard tube amps & preamps that sounded like my old Dynaco Stereo-70 & PAS preamp. If you have a tube component that you can hear as being "tubed," then I'd pair it with a solid-state partner to ameliorate the tube sound. If you have a tube component that you couldn't tell whether it had tubes or not, then mix and match freely, IMHO.
The best tubes and solid state seem to be converging, to my ears. So if the designer is competent and voices the component to sound neutral, then it doesn't really matter whether tubes or transistors are used.
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Post by ocezam on Nov 21, 2013 8:25:18 GMT -5
I've heard tube preamps and amps that I couldn't have told from solid state with a blindfold on. I've also heard tube amps & preamps that sounded like my old Dynaco Stereo-70 & PAS preamp. If you have a tube component that you can hear as being "tubed," then I'd pair it with a solid-state partner to ameliorate the tube sound. If you have a tube component that you couldn't tell whether it had tubes or not, then mix and match freely, IMHO. Agreed. Well said. |
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Post by jimdabomb on Jul 5, 2014 18:18:13 GMT -5
I use an Emotiva USP-1 pre into my DIY 3 watt 6B4G based SET tube amp and I think it's a great combo. I haven't tried a tube preamp but I have used the USP-1 with solid state amps class A and D. The USP-1 could exhibit a somewhat bright or harsh sound with certain amps or a bit of a digital sound. I don't know if I'd call my SET "tubey", it's just clean, detailed, velvety smooth with good bass, amazing midrange, and clean, extended treble. It's a very easy to listen to combination and sounds very natural. I'm guessing with a tube amp the sound would be more "tubey".. I'm not sure. I use Tekton Lore speakers.
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Post by audiobill on Jul 5, 2014 19:45:39 GMT -5
Unless you need all the inputs, phono stage or bass management skip the preamp and go directly from a dac with volume control (like the dc-1) to power amps.
Disagree with Keith on tube coloration; there are very clear soundstage and imaging differences between my tube amps and XPA-1s, more musical with tubes.
And I'm a musician!
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Post by lhracing on Jul 5, 2014 21:33:24 GMT -5
I have to agree with audiobill other than the "And I'm a musician!" (I wish I could actually play the guitars that I own). I have an older RSP-2 driving my Jolida tube amp and I think the sound is very musical, clear, great sound stage and just enjoyable to listen to. I also have a XPA-200 for the same system and honestly it is a little too sharp for my tastes (I find myself grinding my teeth after a little while). Bottom line I very much enjoy my SS pre driving the tube power amp.
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 5, 2014 21:37:36 GMT -5
If you look at my sig you can see which amp I prefer for music using my tube pre.
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