Another one who needs advise... XPA-2 Gen2 + XPA-100?

[perk]

Hi Everyone,

I need some advise and I searched and searched..but couldn't find the real answer on the boards.
If this question has been asked before and I missed it, I apologise.

I currently own a XPA-5 (Gen 1) and a B&W 7.1 set. While the surrounds are "simple" 603's my LCR's are 2x B&W 703's (90dB spl (2.83V, 1m) and a Nautilus HTM 1 (90dB spl (2.83V, 1m).
There are 2 SVS Subwoofers providing the bass.

I love the HTM 1 and the 703's will suffice until I ever have the patience to save up for some 802D's  .

But I'm missing some dynamics in my HT (I'm a 90% HT and 10% music kinda guy).
Now the XPA 5's 200 watts should be enough for the set, but since I have the feeling I just need a little bit more OOMPH I'm looking into getting a XPA-2 Gen 2 for my fronts and a XPA-100 for the HTM.

Now the question, will that combination work for me and won't give me too much tonal difference in my front stage (XPA 2 vs. XPA-100).
I know 3x XPA 1's is the ultimate way to go, but I can't fork over that amount of cash right now and I think it will be an overkill in my current appartment.

If I can get your advise / opinion.. that would be really great;

1. The XPA-5 is enough for your current setup and you shouldn't be missing anything. Get your accoustiscs in order   (I do have 3 GIK accoustic panels in my livingroom + AUD. XT32 does wonders).
2. The XPA-2 Gen 2 will blend in nicely with a XPA-100 for your Center. Good choice!
3. Save up a little more and get 3x XPA-1L (Will this Amp play high volumes + get me the dynamics for HT use? Again..I don't listen to music too often and have too little knowledge about what a "class
    A amplifier does..)
4. Other....

I live in The Netherlands (Europe)..So to try these combo's out is not really an option.

Looking forward to your advise.

Kind Regards,

Erwin

[creimes]

Hey Erwin, you say your missing dynamics in your 7.2 setup, currently you have an XPA-5 gen 1, what are you powering the remaining 2 channels with, also how loud can/do you listen at being in an apartment as I do find things can get more dynamic with volume increase

How about adding just the XPA-2 or a pair of XPA-1L's first and then see if you need/want to go for another XPA-1L for the HTM later

Chad

[frenchyfranky]

I think a XPR-5 double the power and should give you the little more OOOMPH you're looking

[knucklehead]

Nov 25, 2013 2:52:37 GMT -5 perk said:

But I'm missing some dynamics in my HT (I'm a 90% HT and 10% music kinda guy).
Now the XPA 5's 200 watts should be enough for the set, but since I have the feeling I just need a little bit more OOMPH I'm looking into getting a XPA-2 Gen 2 for my fronts and a XPA-100 for the HTM.

What 'dynamics' are you missing? Was there some dynamic that was present with a different speaker or amp setup that are now missing? You should give us a description of the room size and some idea of the room surfaces like windows and whether they are covered - floor coverings? - high ceilings? - listening volumes for movies and music. Things like that.

When something is missing in a setup its usually the speakers that will make the most difference. Unless the XPA-5 is clipping I doubt a different amp is going to make much difference.

[repeetavx]

I would vote for option number 2, but:

Your first generation XPA-5 has a gain of 32. Good for movie dynamics. The XPA-2 Gen. 2 has a gain of 29. Good for music and slightly less dynamic for movies. The XPA-100 has a gain of 32 like your XPA-5.

So I would suggest finding a used XPA-2 Gen. 1 with a gain of 32 to match your XPA-5. (Your complaint was dynamics).

A couple of people have mentioned that if they off load a couple of channels from their XPA-5s, that the power supply is freed up to add some extra "punch" to the surrounds.

Even though the XPA-100 is only rated 50 watts more than the XPA-5. Off loading the Front Left and Front Right channels from the XPA-5 and adding two or three XPA-100s to the front, would give you dedicated power supplies for each of these two or three channels. I believe that this would give you an increase in dynamics without going to the ultimate solution of going to an XPR-5.

All of the XPA amps have the same "tonal" signature. The difference seems to be detail depth and bass frequency control. Even the XPA-1L has people who can't tell the difference between it and their "old" XPA-2. The XPR line has its own tonal signature.

[perk]

Wow,

Thank you guys so much for the reply.
Let me answer all of the questions.

I have an Onkyo 3009 which drives all the surrounds. The LCR are powered by the XPA-5 (so 2 channels are not used).
It never actually crossed my mind to sell my XPA-5 and get a XPR-5 (it's a bit out of my budget though..but still..viable option)

My roomsize is Width: 18 FT, (LCR are along this wall). Depth: 21 FT, Height: 7 FT
There are windows covering 1 wall, but there are curtains across those walls.
The ceiling is just a simple flat one.

I have 3 GIK accoustic panels on the opposite walls of the speakers.

What volume do I play? It depends. I can get away with 60 / 70 on my Onkyo on "absolute" volume display..don't know how much that is in db.
Pretty loud for an apartment. My neighbours are pretty cool.

Weird that I thought the XPA-2 gen2 would give me more power on the frontstage, but now (calculating in the gain factor) I might need to change my options.

1. First try 2 XPA-1l's for the Left / Right channels and maybe later add a third for the center channel
2. Get 3 XPA-100's for LCR
3. Sell my XPA-5 and get a XPR-5 (stretching the budget..)

How can one describe the tonal signature of the XPR-5. Is it more bright or more warm comparing to the XPA-5?


Can't wait to hear what you guys think!

Thx again.

Erwin

[creimes]

Considering you are using only 3 channels of the XPA-5 I'm surprised that it would be an amp issue, I run 2 XPA-1L's for my mains and my XPA-5 gen2 for my center, rears and 2 outdoor speakers and I have never noticed an issue with dynamics and in fact all the Emotiva amps that I have owned have always been great, but it is nice having dedicated amps for the L&R channels I find and you have very nice speakers up front.

Chad

[dally]

Nov 25, 2013 13:53:03 GMT -5 perk said:

Wow,

Thank you guys so much for the reply.
Let me answer all of the questions.

I have an Onkyo 3009 which drives all the surrounds. The LCR are powered by the XPA-5 (so 2 channels are not used).
It never actually crossed my mind to sell my XPA-5 and get a XPR-5 (it's a bit out of my budget though..but still..viable option)

My roomsize is Width: 18 FT, (LCR are along this wall). Depth: 21 FT, Height: 7 FT
There are windows covering 1 wall, but there are curtains across those walls.
The ceiling is just a simple flat one.

I have 3 GIK accoustic panels on the opposite walls of the speakers.

What volume do I play? It depends. I can get away with 60 / 70 on my Onkyo on "absolute" volume display..don't know how much that is in db.
Pretty loud for an apartment. My neighbours are pretty cool.

Weird that I thought the XPA-2 gen2 would give me more power on the frontstage, but now (calculating in the gain factor) I might need to change my options.

1. First try 2 XPA-1l's for the Left / Right channels and maybe later add a third for the center channel
2. Get 3 XPA-100's for LCR
3. Sell my XPA-5 and get a XPR-5 (stretching the budget..)

How can one describe the tonal signature of the XPR-5. Is it more bright or more warm comparing to the XPA-5?


Can't wait to hear what you guys think!

Thx again.

Erwin

Amplifier gain has absolutely no bearing on dynamics. Gain just determines how loud your amp will play in relation to the signal that is sent to it. While it is a good idea to try to choose amplifiers that have the same gain( so they all play at the same relative volume) your pre pro will automatically compensate if your using your automatic room correction. You can also adjust for this manually if you have an spl meter.

Of the amps you listed, the XPA-2 should be the MOST dynamic of all of them (besides the XPR-5). It will not be a night and day difference over your XPA-5 however. I had an XPA-5 and switched to the sherbourn pa-7-350 (basically an XPR-7) and I did notice some diffrrence in dynamics, but it wasn't huge.

If you are trying to get more dynamics, try listening with room correction turned off (audessey). I find most room correction sounds too flat and lifeless for my taste. Also make sure you're avr isn't set for a late night mode. This will tend to flatten out the sound as well.

[creimes]

Yeah +1 for the room correction, some notice and some don't and different brands of AVR's and processor's obviously have different types of room correction, I used to own a UMC- which I never had any issues with but if I used EMOQ room correction I felt what it did wasn't to my taste and preferred using direct mode at all times and adjust gain and distance's myself(manually), and also as mentioned above night mode or whatever it may be called in your Onkyo can limit dynamics significantly.

Have you tried bypassing the room correction settings and using direct mode for movies....? if not give it a go and see if anything changes.

[garbulky]

Your room is reasonably large. But....I wonder how good of an output your onkyo does? Don't discount the value of a quality source. Now your onkyo is not a cheap onkyo so I have no reason to think it sucks. But I do wonder if a different source may do better.
I tried the USP-1 and I was very pleased at how dynamic it was especially in the mid and lower bass. There was just so much SLAM. This may be what you are looking for. It's not sheer perfection with music but with movies, I was in heaven. Keep in mind, that was with an XDA-1 DAC. I wasn't using HT bypass and I don't know if there are any improvements at all with HT bypass. So you may want to ask around if you want to go this route.

[Gary Cook]

I think I have it right, you have a 7.2 set up with the XPA-5 ( 5 x 200 watts) powering the L,C,R and an Onkyo 3009 AVR (11 x 160 watts) powering the LS, RS, RR and LR together with 2 x SVS subs.

What I would try;
Firstly I'd switch the LS and RS to the XPA-5, I would always run my best amp for the main 5 channels. Plus I have found the sonic signature of my Onkyo AVR to be noticeably different to my XPA-5. As a result I don't believe that they would make a good mix for the main 5.

I must say that I'm not a fan of the post Audyssey sound from Onkyo, it always sounds a bit lifeless to me. So the next step would be to run it flat (no equalisation) and see how that sounds.

Something to try, for fun, my uncle had a pair of B7W 603's and we found them to be extremely position sensitive, much more so than the 703's that replaced them (yes, he was a B&W nut). So maybe try moving them around some, they didn't like walls close behind or alongside. Very fussy they were.

If the above doesn't do it for you, then you have a number of options. XPA-5's are very sought after so you should have no problem selling yours and upgrading to an XPR-5. Or you could just add a pair of XPA-1's or a single XPA-2 and have all Emotiva amplification for the 7 channels. Personally I'd be looking at the processor before I made big moves on the amplification, if a UMC-200 has all the features/connections you need then that would be my first move.

Cheers
Gary

[perk]

Hi Guys,


I’m getting some great information here.


Let me start off with Audyssey XT32. The Accoustics at my place are pretty bad. And in my experience, XT32 makes the whole experience much more enjoyable. (sound bubble is way better).

The B&W 703 tends to be very “treble-ly” in my livingroom. (Bass is not it’s forte in general).


I have no experience with EMO-Q, but if I read the reviews..XT32 surpasses it in every way.

I DSP my subwoofers myself using a MINI-DSP with REW (and a SPL meter), let Audyssey do some work and then buff it op again with the MINI-DSP. I like my sound bass heavy.


My listening position is almost the perfect triangle; Speakers are 9 ft. apart and sit about 8 ft. from both speakers. Can’t place them more than 1 ft. from the back wall though.

I placed a thick rug in the living room also.


What do I mean when I say dynamics; It has everything to do with front stage IMPACT sounds. So when a lot of explosions are happening, the system seems to hold back at high volumes.

Like there’s some kind of limit / the sound is capped at some point.

My couch shakes thanks to my 2 SVS subwoofers. But supporting audio that’s supposed to come from my front stage lacks impact, again..like there’s a limit.


Surrounds are doing great (although I will plug them in the XPA-5 or replacement again). I watched King Kong (2005) the other day en the surroundings are pretty damn well displayed.

It’s just that I know I’m missing some front stage impact.


The same happens to me when I listen to 2 channel music (PC  USB  Chord Chordette Gem DAC  Analog into the Onkyo with .FLAC files). Acoustic recordings / Women’s voices give me a terrific soundstage. Almost forgetting there are 2 speakers that are responsible for that sound. (especially when I turn it up..wow!)

But give it a good rock track (G n’ R or some golden oldies) and everything becomes more muffled and the less separated.

It’s kind of the same effect I have with movies. Now 2-channel is not my prime concern, but it’s more to describe the problem.

Nov 25, 2013 20:38:48 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

I think I have it right, you have a 7.2 set up with the XPA-5 ( 5 x 200 watts) powering the L,C,R and an Onkyo 3009 AVR (11 x 160 watts) powering the LS, RS, RR and LR together with 2 x SVS subs.

What I would try;
Firstly I'd switch the LS and RS to the XPA-5, I would always run my best amp for the main 5 channels. Plus I have found the sonic signature of my Onkyo AVR to be noticeably different to my XPA-5. As a result I don't believe that they would make a good mix for the main 5.

I must say that I'm not a fan of the post Audyssey sound from Onkyo, it always sounds a bit lifeless to me. So the next step would be to run it flat (no equalisation) and see how that sounds.

Something to try, for fun, my uncle had a pair of B7W 603's and we found them to be extremely position sensitive, much more so than the 703's that replaced them (yes, he was a B&W nut). So maybe try moving them around some, they didn't like walls close behind or alongside. Very fussy they were.

If the above doesn't do it for you, then you have a number of options. XPA-5's are very sought after so you should have no problem selling yours and upgrading to an XPR-5. Or you could just add a pair of XPA-1's or a single XPA-2 and have all Emotiva amplification for the 7 channels. Personally I'd be looking at the processor before I made big moves on the amplification, if a UMC-200 has all the features/connections you need then that would be my first move.

Cheers
Gary

Gary, you're are correct about the setup! LIike mentioned before, no Audyssey is not really an option. But because everyone took the time to read and answer, I'll try it tonight.
I'm a B&W nut also. But lately it's been more about the looks than the sound ..  and I'm lazy..not willing to start over again (selling everything etc..etc..).

Toe in is the key with the 703. Haven't found the sweet spot yet..but they need some toe in definately!

Maybe 3x XPA-100 or XPA-1L will be just what I need. The XPR-5 is awesome..but It's damn expensive.
But will the XPA-1L be sufficient for HT? Everywhere I read people use it more for 2-channel rather than HT. Why is that?

Thx again everyone....if I'm missing something or there's some more advise, I'm all ears (or eyes in this case).
If more info is needed, I'll gladly provide.

Cheers!

Erwin

[creimes]

Nov 26, 2013 2:45:19 GMT -5 perk said:

But will the XPA-1L be sufficient for HT? Everywhere I read people use it more for 2-channel rather than HT. Why is that?

Hey Erwin, I use my XPA-1L's for 2ch listening but also are my amps for my L&R towers in my 5.1 system as I have everything integrated for listening to both music and movies and I find no issues with the XPA-1L's for HT use.

They are great amps for Class A 2ch listening and are very capable amps in A/B for HT use

Chad

[perk]

Nov 26, 2013 10:43:40 GMT -5 creimes said:

Nov 26, 2013 2:45:19 GMT -5 perk said:

But will the XPA-1L be sufficient for HT? Everywhere I read people use it more for 2-channel rather than HT. Why is that?

Hey Erwin, I use my XPA-1L's for 2ch listening but also are my amps for my L&R towers in my 5.1 system as I have everything integrated for listening to both music and movies and I find no issues with the XPA-1L's for HT use.

They are great amps for Class A 2ch listening and are very capable amps in A/B for HT use

Chad

Hi Chad (and all other readers),



What would be my HT advantage with an XPA-1L combo instead of XPA-100's?

Let me rephrase; Get 3x XPA-100's for front stage or 2x XPA-1L en keep de XPA-5 for powering the Center channel?

Again..I don't listen to that much 2-channel.



Any advise on the "muffled" sound I described in my previous post. Is that an AMP thing or an Acoustic thing?



Thx again.



E.

[creimes]

I used to own the UPA-1's which were replaced by the XPA-100's, I never had any complaints with the UPA-1's as they were awesome amps especially for the cost, I myself have never heard the XPA-100 but I do notice an upgrade with the XPA-1L from my other Emotiva amps, is it night and day no but I do really like the 1L's but as mentioned most Emotiva amps are generally very close in sound signature, I as well as some others am not sure if changing amps will add as much dynamics as you seem to be missing.

Your Onkyo 3009 doesn't seem to have bad reviews, I personally really enjoy my Sherbourn PT-7030 but have never heard your AVR, do you know anyone who has a different pre/pro that you could try or anything you could demo to test out in your room. Just one question I have is what are your gain levels for you 3 front channels in your onkyo, are turned down at all or all at 0.

Chad

[creimes]

Oh and as far as the muffled sound, I can't see that being an amp issue but maybe something I mentioned above or someone else has mentioned, did you try listening without room correction yet ?

[perk]

Nov 26, 2013 13:13:08 GMT -5 creimes said:

Oh and as far as the muffled sound, I can't see that being an amp issue but maybe something I mentioned above or someone else has mentioned, did you try listening without room correction yet ?

Hi man.
Yep I tried...little difference and actually worse...( also with 2 channel...)

I don't know ...maybe I'm just too close to my speakers...

Thanks everybody..I'm a lot wiser.
I got some thinking to do. :-)

Will reply with my final choice!

With Regards,

Erwin

Sent from my GT-N7100 using proboards

[Gary Cook]

Have you checked to ensure that all drivers in your front speakers are working?

"Muffled sound" is so generic it's hard for me (and maybe others) to give advice on what to try. To be of any help we are gong to have to get much more specific. The "disable Audyssey" is a valid suggestion when certain frequencies are suppressed and/or other frequencies are advanced. Running it flat eliminates that possibility. I know you didn't like it, but what differences did you hear?

As for GnR not sounding so good, personally I have not had much success finding a good quality GnR recording, they are all pretty average. If someone has found a quality one (or more) please let me know.

On the XPA-1L's, their big advantage is the ability to run in Class A for music. Since you are not a big stereo music listener you won't be utilising the main reason for choosing XPA-1L's.


Cheers
Gary

[dally]

Nov 26, 2013 15:37:33 GMT -5 perk said:

Nov 26, 2013 13:13:08 GMT -5 creimes said:

Oh and as far as the muffled sound, I can't see that being an amp issue but maybe something I mentioned above or someone else has mentioned, did you try listening without room correction yet ?

Hi man.
Yep I tried...little difference and actually worse...( also with 2 channel...)

I don't know ...maybe I'm just too close to my speakers...

Thanks everybody..I'm a lot wiser.
I got some thinking to do. :-)

Will reply with my final choice!

With Regards,

Erwin

Sent from my GT-N7100 using proboards

Erwin, B&W's aren't really known for "slap you in the face" dynamics. They are usually described as a little constrained, or laid back. That being said, it seems you should be getting at least a little more dynamic response than you are. Perhaps you are sitting in a null in your room? Also what are you using for a source for movie watching? I looked in your above post's and I didn't see any mention of a source. Are you using the latest uncompressed audio formats? (Dolby true HD,DTS MA)

If you get XPA-100's or 1L's purely for greater dynamics, I think you'll be disappointed. The XPA-100 uses an XPA-5/3 amp module attached to its own heat sink and power supply. So it's basically a mono XPA-5, which you already have. Honestly, I think (especially just driving the front three speakers) that the XPA-5 would be more dynamic than three XPA-100's, because it has that large 1200VA transformer to tap into. The XPA amps are all pretty dynamic. I've personally listened to the XPA-2, 3, & 5, and there really isn't that much difference between them. I think maybe the XPA-2 is just slightly punchier and is a tiny bit tighter in the bass. My sherbourn pa-7-350 is more dynamic than the XPA series amps, but its not huge, maybe 20% or so.I haven't heard the rest of Emo's amps,so I can't speak for them all, but I think your problem is more a speaker/source/room problem than an amplifier problem.

[perk]

Hi Everyone,

I'm so sorry I haven't replied in a while after you all took time to give me your advice.
I've been busy and still considering my options.

I'm currently in contact with a company that sells acoustic panels to see if I can first get my room fitted with some acoustic measures before diving into more / different amps.
Almost everyone said that the XPA-5 should be able to handle my B&W's with ease. 

Although I love buying new stuff (who doesn't), I'm thinking acoustics should be my first step.
We'll see what happens and if it helps at all.

I'll keep this thread update as I make progress in my search for better sound.

Kind regards,

Erwin