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Post by whovous on Dec 31, 2013 19:41:26 GMT -5
As I read over what I have written below, it occurs to me I am thinking out loud here. I've run the EMO-Q setup on the newish 5.1 system listed below. It tells me that all of my speakers, from the floorstanding VM30s to the quite small stand mounted VM10s, should be crossed over at 175Hz. My sub, meanwhile, should be crossed over at 100Hz, or so it says.
Correct me if I am wrong, but if I say OK to these settings, am I also saying goodbye to sounds between 100Hz and 175Hz. Or if not goodbye, at least a good deal of roll-off? Neither sub nor speaker is called upon to do anything there.
I do not know if this makes a difference, but this is a very small room (8' x 11') with OK but not entirely perfect speaker placements. Nothing to be done about room size and pretty much nothing to be done about speaker placements, but it seems worth mentioning as an aside.
At first blush, I am inclined to think I should leave the sub at 100Hz and take the VM30s down to 100Hz to meet it. I am not so sure about what to think about the VM20 center channel nor the VM10 surrounds, although that last pair does not go very deep in any event.
When I use Merlin on the SVS page, it says the VM30s should be paired with the bigger PC12+ and crossed over at 80Hz, and it says the VM20s should be paired with my PC12NSD and crossed over at 100Hz. In each case, the assumption seems to be that of a 2.1 system, or else identical speakers all around, and I have neither.
Since I have "some of each" in my system, I am not sure just what I should do, but here is my thinking, at least as of the moment. I am not sure I have a handle on all of this, and can easily be persuaded to change my mind. Anyway, I think a sub should be crossed over as low as the mains will tolerate. Merlin says that is 80Hz for the VM30s I have for my L&R speakers, and 100Hz for my VM20 center speaker (it also says 120Hz for the VM10s I use as surrounds, but that is probably beside the point.
This system will be used pretty close to 100% for TV and movies. If I ever put a music CD in the DVD player, it will just be to prove that I can. I have a separate system for music. I am inclined to cross everything over at 80Hz. The L&R speakers should be fine with that, per Merlin. The center might be happier with 100Hz, but I think the center is mostly the human voice, and the human voice is mostly above 100Hz, so the center may not often be called upon to do much between 80Hz and 100Hz in any event. As for the surrounds, I am not sure I should care, as there does not seem to be much low frequency information in the surrounds in any event.
The bottom line is that the VM30s are best crossed over at 80Hz, the VM20s at 100Hz, and the VM10s, well with the VM10s I just don't care. The choice, then, is between crossing everything over at 80Hz and maybe asking the center channel to go a little too low, or crossing everything over at 100Hz and maybe asking the sub to go a little too high. I really value the idea of getting the low bass right, as I have discovered the PC12+ in my 7.1 system does amazing things with everyday sounds like car doors slamming and not quite everyday sounds like gunshots. The PC12-NSD is not there yet, and I suspect the crossover is in part to blame.
So, I have talked myself into setting all the speakers to crossover at 80Hz. Does this make sense? If I make these changes, and run EMO-Q again, will it simply undo these changes?
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 31, 2013 21:43:20 GMT -5
What do you have the LCR and side speakers set to, small or large? Is "Enhanced Bass" set to "Off"?
Happy New Year
Gary
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Post by whovous on Jan 1, 2014 9:11:47 GMT -5
We are at our cabin right now, so I cannot check and answer this with certainty. I used the default settings, and with the X-overs Emo chose, I am pretty sure all must be set for small. I know I did not override any settings.
As for Enhanced Bass, I haven't a clue and did not even know such a "feature" existed. I know I did not turn it on, but I do not know what Emo did.
I do know I have much to learn, as I do not understand how the answers to these questions contribute to deciding whether or not to accept the X-over settings created by running Emo-Q.
Thanks.
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Post by whovous on Jan 2, 2014 7:59:10 GMT -5
All speakers were set to small, and I left them there. I have moved all the crossovers to 80Hz. Before I did this, I ran EMO-Q again, and this time it set my rear crossovers to 250Hz, FWIW.
Enhanced Bass is on. I do not see a way to turn it off, but Google seems to suggest I need to switch all the speakers to large, and then switch them back to small again, and that Enhanced Bass will then be turned off. Haven't tried that yet.
The more I think about this, the more I think my real question is why does EMO-Q set different crossovers for different speakers in the same system? I realize different speakers have different LF abilities, but I still have only one sub with only one crossover. If I cross over speakers to "start" at a frequency which is higher than the frequency at which the subwoofer "stops" then, in the words of the title to this post: Isn't there a gap here?
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Post by whovous on Jan 2, 2014 8:01:45 GMT -5
One more thing. The PC-12NSD sounded a lot better last night, although I have no idea if that was a result of changing the crossover, or just listening to different source material. I still do not have very many hours of playing with this system in this room.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jan 2, 2014 8:36:27 GMT -5
Simply put...yes.
I was wondering if EmoQ is detecting that your VM30's are not capable of going low enough, so it's suggesting the higher cutoff. I know the specs say they should go much lower, but I could see two possible situations:
First, are you 100% sure the low end of your speakers is working? If you can't tell for sure - I would artificially bump the low end of them a lot manually in the PEQ and make sure you hear plenty of bass and can see/feel them moving. If they are not...you have a speaker problem and simply setting the x-over lower won't change things.
Second, could it be possible that your speakers' frequency response in your room is taking a serious dive at around the level it reco'd for the VM30's x-over? If so, perhaps EmoQ is being fooled into thinking they are not capable of going lower even though at some lower frequency they are back up at OK levels. I don't know if it's possible for EmoQ to be fooled like this - but hey, it's just an algorithm programmed to do things in response to what it sees. In this case, just manually setting the x-over would help, but of course - you may want to find what's causing that dip (may call for some room treatments...).
Mark
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Post by whovous on Jan 2, 2014 9:08:44 GMT -5
The VM-30 is a tall narrow speaker with about a gazillion low end drivers (small drivers, but lots of them), so it seems extremely unlikely that the low end is out on both. Were that the case, I'd expect EMO-Q to cross them over like it did with the VM-10, which has only one of the same little driver, or perhaps even higher.
The room is extremely small (7 x 11) and my understanding is that small rooms present some odd acoustic problems. That could present real problems, as whenever I raise the possibility of room treatments with my wife, the room suddenly gets very cold!
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jan 2, 2014 18:04:14 GMT -5
Got any way you can measure them independent of emoq? Like REW?
Mark
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Post by whovous on Jan 2, 2014 20:06:34 GMT -5
Yes. I have REW on my laptop and I have a UMIK, too. However, each time I hook it up, my eyes glaze over and I cannot read the screen. I understand the learning curve levels off pretty quickly, but I am just not there yet.
But the suggestions SVS makes for crossing over their subs with my speakers (as well as with hundreds of other speakers, FWIW) should deserve a fair amount of weight, shouldn't they? They say the VM30s should crossover over at 80Hz with the PC12+, and that the VM20s should crossover at 100Hz with the PC12-NSD. As you can see in my sig, I have un peu de tout.
175Hz just does not make sense to me. If the gazillion tiny little woofers in the VM30s are all shot, then the crossover is likely to be north of 1Khz, and the sound is going to be so atrocious that no one could miss it. I really do not think I have a gazillion tiny dead woofers.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jan 2, 2014 20:24:14 GMT -5
Agree...except EmoQ does not know you or your equipment. It just sends a signal out, listens for what it hears, and makes reco's. That's why I suggested REW. It may offer you insights into what EmoQ is hearing that causes it to reco settings that don't make sense. Short of understanding REW...I suggest you try the first test I mentioned. That should be easy to try. And, maybe youmight learn that only half the gazillion woofers are working...  Also...is this happening with the UMC-1 or the UMC-200? And, you are using the factory mic with each, right? Mark |
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Post by whovous on Jan 2, 2014 20:51:51 GMT -5
This is happening with the UMC-200 and the factory mic in the 5.1 system in my sig. The UMC-1 in the 7.1 system (where the room is more normally sized and the speakers are pretty close to optimal positions) was not nearly so far off. That system has two VM30s and five VM20s, as shown below.
I do plan to learn to use REW at some point, and I suspect it will be easy once I get over the initial hump.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jan 2, 2014 20:55:50 GMT -5
Thought so but thanks for confirming. REW is not too tough to learn, but there is a learning curve. You could likely even skip the soundcard calibration and mic calibration and get some good insights as a start. Even w/o that...if it showed your VM30's rolling off below 175, you would know something isn't right and EmoQ was detecting that.
Mark
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 2, 2014 22:52:19 GMT -5
Enhanced Bass is on. I do not see a way to turn it off, but Google seems to suggest I need to switch all the speakers to large, and then switch them back to small again, and that Enhanced Bass will then be urned off. Haven't tried that yet. You got it, change the speakers to large then turn off Enhanced Bass then change them back to small. It's sorta logical, Enhanced Bass is only accessible/useable with "large" speakers so it makes sense to have the switching of it linked to the large speakers selection. Happy New Year Gary |
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Post by whovous on Jan 2, 2014 22:52:30 GMT -5
OK, I will give it another try this weekend. of course, that implies I can figure out where I hid the UMIK this time...
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Post by whovous on Jan 2, 2014 22:58:53 GMT -5
Enhanced Bass is on. I do not see a way to turn it off, but Google seems to suggest I need to switch all the speakers to large, and then switch them back to small again, and that Enhanced Bass will then be urned off. Haven't tried that yet. You got it, change the speakers to large then turn off Enhanced Bass then change them back to small. It's sorta logical, Enhanced Bass is only accessible/useable with "large" speakers so it makes sense to have the switching of it linked to the large speakers selection. Happy New Year Gary Sorta logical, but sorta not. If Enhanced Bass works only with large speakers, and if I never ran setup independent of EMO-Q, and if EMO-Q always ID'd each speaker as SMALL, and if Enhanced Bass never works with small speakers, then why does EMO-Q say all of my speakers are small and still turn on Enhanced Bass? The VM30s are physically fairly large, about 5' tall, but for woofs they have just under a gazillion 4" drivers along with several passive radiators. Big speaks, small cones works as a SMALL speaker for me, but not 175Hz crossover small. That is bookshelf territory. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 3, 2014 16:58:38 GMT -5
You got it, change the speakers to large then turn off Enhanced Bass then change them back to small. It's sorta logical, Enhanced Bass is only accessible/useable with "large" speakers so it makes sense to have the switching of it linked to the large speakers selection. Sorta logical, but sorta not. If Enhanced Bass works only with large speakers, and if I never ran setup independent of EMO-Q, and if EMO-Q always ID'd each speaker as SMALL, and if Enhanced Bass never works with small speakers, then why does EMO-Q say all of my speakers are small and still turn on Enhanced Bass? The VM30s are physically fairly large, about 5' tall, but for woofs they have just under a gazillion 4" drivers along with several passive radiators. Big speaks, small cones works as a SMALL speaker for me, but not 175Hz crossover small. That is bookshelf territory. The enhanced bass linked to large as I said is sorta logical, but the cross over isn't, I agree. Enhanced bass "on"is the default if I remember correctly, EmoQ doesn't turn it on as such. As mentioned a few posts back there is something in the room most likely causing EmoQ to come to that conclusion. EmoQ is pretty sensitive based on my experience. For example in my uncle's place he has a smallish glass fronted cabinet on a side wall that I didn't really think would make much difference to the EmoQ settings, but covering it with a blanket had a noticeable effect. EmoQ highlighted it by dropping db at certain frequencies but on the FL only, which caught me by surprise as I'd never noticed the problem. Put the blanket over it and no more correction, plus it sounded better to the ears. My guess is EmoQ is telling you something about speaker placement and/or room acoustics, in the cross over points, the trick is now to find it and correct it. The first thing I'd try is moving the speakers around slightly, even a few inches can make a difference, Happy New Year Gary |
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Post by whovous on Jan 4, 2014 8:10:25 GMT -5
My guess is EmoQ is telling you something about speaker placement and/or room acoustics, in the cross over points, the trick is now to find it and correct it. The first thing I'd try is moving the speakers around slightly, even a few inches can make a difference, Happy New Year Gary I am sure this setup has its share of problems being wedged into this tiny space, but EmoQ seems to be telling me not to listen to any frequencies from 100 to 175Hz! That I don't get. I did the small/large/small flip last night and now have Enhanced Bass turned off. I was going to do more but as I hit a button the power failed for the entire neighborhood. Funny the things that can go through your head at a time like that. Was I really drawing that much current? It's just the room, no it is the whole house, no it is the whole block. I will try to find the time to fiddle this weekend. The sub seems to be integrating into the system better. It was pretty boomy in its original location and my first run of EmoQ. To me, getting the sub right on the little stuff is a huge part of home theater. I want to be able to tell what kind of car it is just by listening to a car door slam! OK, a little hyperbolic there, but you get the point. |
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jan 4, 2014 11:35:19 GMT -5
Emoq is not telling you to not listen to those frequencies. It is telling you that it doesn't think your system can play them.
Mark
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Post by whovous on Jan 4, 2014 12:15:23 GMT -5
Entirely logical, but also more than a little weird. I really need to find the UMIK and some pitons and attack the learning curve.
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Post by whovous on Jan 5, 2014 13:56:09 GMT -5
OK, this is making less and less sense all the time, but let me note first that while I have found the UMIK-1 microphone, there seems to be a general consensus today that the speakers would be better used in accompaniment to football games than to test tones. So, I remain unsure as to when I am going to tackle the REW learning curve.
But I did have time to play with speaker positions a bit. I moved the center, which is on a glass shelf immediately below the screen, a little bit forward, and I moved the fronts both in and back and aimed them towards my microphone sweet spot. These three speakers are now much more equidistant from that spot than they were before. I also moved the sub maybe 3-5" closer to the side wall.
Then I ran EMO-Q again. Recall that the first time it set all five speakers at 175Hz and the sub at 100Hz, leaving a gap from 100 to 175Hz. When I ran it a second time a bit later, all was the same except that it crossed the small rear speakers at 250Hz. Now, I did not mention speaker distances in the prior measurements, because they struck me as being basically correct. The room is about 7 by 11, and it said the fronts were about 7 feet away and rears roughly 2 feet away. It was way off on the sub, but my understanding is that one should ignore the sub measurement in pretty much every instance.
Skip to the present and again says all my speakers are Small, but at least it turns off Enhanced Bass this time. But it says my fronts are more than 19 feet away, and the surrounds are 16 feet away, all in a 7 x 11 room. And the crossovers? Ahh, it now puts all five speakers at 120Hz (rather than 175 and or 250) and, get this, it crosses the sub over at 225 Hz! It seems EmoQ took my concern about the frequency gap to heart and decided to over-compensate in the other direction. I now have both the five and the point one covering the range from 100Hz to 225Hz.
Now, I realize it is just an algorithm and algorithms do not respond to hurt feelings over frequency response. But why do I get the feeling that this algorithm is more than a little biased in the direction of simple random number generation?
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