smokey
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Post by smokey on Jan 2, 2014 2:44:04 GMT -5
KEITH, I have the XSP-1 PREAMP, I was thinking about buying the audio horizons 5.1 tube buffer,what would be the best way to connect the buffer ,it also would have balanced XLR input & output, if I connect the buffer to the main XLR output of the XSP-1 would the volume cause a problem with the tube buffer? ALSO if I were to use the Frequency Trim Control to drop down I db ? would this have the same effect as adding the tube buffer, my system has just a little high end harshness that I am trying to smooth down! what your opinion THANK-YOU HAPPY NEW YEAR  |
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Post by jlafrenz on Jan 2, 2014 9:20:09 GMT -5
If you want all your sources to take advantage of the tube buffer then you would connect it between the output of the XSP-1 and the input of the amplifier. The volume control should still work as normal.
I don't think that using the trim control would give you the same result as with a tube buffer, you have to take into account the tubes you are using. Each has their own flavor and will play a role in the end sound.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jan 2, 2014 10:03:00 GMT -5
Putting the buffer between the XSP-1 and the amp would be the only way to maintain a balanced signal, also IIRC if you use the trim controls the signal (internal to the XSP-1) is no longer balanced.
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 2, 2014 11:18:25 GMT -5
From reading past posts by Keith I can conclude he is not a tubes gear fan so I don't think he will shine some light for you on this topic.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 2, 2014 12:09:36 GMT -5
First off, I think you may be operating under a common misunderstanding about what a tube buffer does. A tone control (like the Tone Trims in the XSP-1) alters the frequency response without affecting anything else (hopefully). If your system "sounds harsh" because the high-end is simply being overemphasized, then this will correct that very well, without otherwise altering the way it sounds; if the high-end is "harsh" because of distortion or something like that, then the tone adjustment won't "fix" the harshness - although it may make it less noticeable (which may do the trick in your particular case). A tube buffer, in direct contrast, is designed to alter the sound in more complex (and presumably pleasing) ways. (I find it extremely humorous when tube buffers quote low distortion figures; obviously, if the distortion was inaudible, then you would hear no difference whatsoever - so why would you buy it? The design goal is really to add just enough of specific types of distortion that sound pleasing.) My point, though, is that a tube buffer is going to add some second harmonic distortion (that "tube warmth" people talk about); it also may alter the frequency response - or it may not. The added second harmonic content may well serve to mask some harshness in certain other equipment, but it isn't actually fixing it (although, arguably, in many cases covering up something unpleasant is a perfectly acceptable way to fix it). Personally, I would rather find out where the harshness is coming from and eliminate it than spend a lot of money covering it up.... otherwise it's a bit like wearing dark sunglasses so you don't notice that the paint on your living room wall is peeling. You might find a new throw rug, or a pair of small tapestries, work much better... and, if you really just have a slightly boosted high end, then the tone trims will correct it perfectly.  (To be perfectly clear here: If you want to add "tube sound" to your system, then this looks like a good - but expensive - way to do it, so by all means go for it; but don't buy it to fix a "problem".) As for the practical aspects, as long as the it can accept the amount of signal that will be passing through it, then the buffer should work OK in your system. It looks like their gain is claimed to be -1 dB, so if your power amp requires 2V for full output, then the buffer will be seeing a little bit more than that - about 2.5 volts - coming in from the XSP-1. (Since they don't spec it, you could ask them - but I don't imagine they would have any problem with that.) Likewise, they don't state the output impedance or minimum load impedance, but any competently designed buffer should have no trouble driving any normal power amp. KEITH, I have the XSP-1 PREAMP, I was thinking about buying the audio horizons 5.1 tube buffer,what would be the best way to connect the buffer ,it also would have balanced XLR input & output, if I connect the buffer to the main XLR output of the XSP-1 would the volume cause a problem with the tube buffer? ALSO if I were to use the Frequency Trim Control to drop down I db ? would this have the same effect as adding the tube buffer, my system has just a little high end harshness that I am trying to smooth down! what your opinion THANK-YOU HAPPY NEW YEAR |
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Post by jefft51 on Jan 2, 2014 12:20:54 GMT -5
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 2, 2014 12:48:51 GMT -5
Now, now.... I'm a fan of reality.  Personally, I think tube equipment - as technology - is very cool. I've designed it, built it, repaired it, and listened to it; in fact, I'm pretty sure that I've owned more tube equipment than most anybody else here (most of it vintage gear a long time ago). The reality is that modern solid state equipment is far more accurate than tube equipment (modern or vintage). However, the choice to listen to tube gear is an aesthetic decision. Rembrandt was a great painter, but my Nikon D800 will definitely produce a more accurate picture of a building then he ever did - or could. Personally, I prefer the photograph, but there is no right or wrong there - that choice is simply a matter of personal preference. I prefer accurate pictures, and I prefer accurate sound; to me anything you add to deliberately alter the sound is usually a pretty obvious step down in accuracy. (Some people may argue that certain alterations of the recording might actually produce an overall result that is closer to reality - which may or may not be true - but each case must be evaluated individually. It seems obvious to me that making a single "generic" alteration to everything you play is "hit and miss" in terms of absolute accuracy.) Tube sound is an artistic choice.... and I have no complaint with it as such. (I wouldn't put a nice golden glow filter, or a star filter, on my camera and then claim that it made the picture more accurate - I would cheerfully admit that doing so was an artistic choice, and that I enjoyed the result.) What I do resent, though, is the pseudo-scientific, pseudo-mystical way in which many people talk about tube equipment. "We have this tube buffer that doesn't add distortion or noise, but somehow magically adds "warmth" to your music." I'm sorry, but that statement is bull%$#@; either it changes the sound or it doesn't; if it changes it, then it is adding distortion (or maybe simply altering the frequency response). "Warmth" is either a "symptom" or an "effect" - there is no such frequency or signal as "warmth" (but, coincidentally, it just so happens that adding second harmonic distortion produces that effect). Rembrandt's picture is different than a photo; the photo is accurate and he "takes artistic license"; please feel free to prefer the one you like.... A tube buffer "adds tube warmth" by adding second harmonic distortion (just like a photographic filter "adds warmth" by reducing the amount of blue light and adding yellow light.) So please feel free to prefer it if you like.... Tubes are NOT "just as low in distortion as solid state but somehow better".... Rather, tubes produce certain alterations of the signal that many people find pleasing. (If they didn't alter the signal, then you wouldn't know they were there, and they would be a total waste of money.) And, yes, since nothing is perfect, solid state equipment also alters the signal - just usually much less (and differently) than tube equipment. I have no problem at all with people who prefer the way tubes sound... And I hope they don't have a problem that I DON'T prefer the way they sound... (But I'm also not going to pretend that I believe the right to personal preference entitles one make claims that contradict the laws of physics or circuit design.) From reading past posts by Keith I can conclude he is not a tubes gear fan so I don't think he will shine some light for you on this topic. |
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Post by moko on Jan 2, 2014 13:34:38 GMT -5
i read some reviews here and get an impression that the xpr and upa series amps are warmer than the xpa series. do they have more second harmonic distortion ? different coupling caps maybe ?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 2, 2014 14:41:15 GMT -5
I think you will find that the differences between our amp models are very subtle (because they are all very low in noise and distortion) - and are more related to very slight variations in frequency response and dynamics. The difference in sound between a typical tube amp and a typical good solid state amp is generally orders of magnitude greater than the differences between two good solid state amps. While the distortion profiles of various amps certainly do differ, the noise and distortion on any good solid state design are usually so low that they are pretty close to inaudible. (A good analogy might be the slight differences in taste between various brands of distilled water, and then comparing the taste of distilled water in general to that of lemonade.) As for coupling caps - again, they only matter in as much as they affect frequency response, or noise, or distortion.... so they are simply counted as "part of the difference". In my experience, there are a few types of capacitors which perform very poorly, and which do have unacceptably high distortion - and so those types are unacceptable for many critical audio applications. Other than those few "bad kinds", the rest don't have individual or characteristic sounds. i read some reviews here and get an impression that the xpr and upa series amps are warmer than the xpa series. do they have more second harmonic distortion ? different coupling caps maybe ? |
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smokey
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Post by smokey on Jan 2, 2014 17:10:48 GMT -5
Keith, if I use the trim controls to mod. the HF & LF ,IS IT STILL in balance mode with the main 0utputs sending a balanced signal ?
also thank-you with your quick response, I am going to try using the TRIM CONTROLS TO SMOOTH THAT HIGH END BITE
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Post by mgbpuff on Jan 2, 2014 17:33:52 GMT -5
If you employ the trim controls, the XSP-1 is no longer in a full differential balanced mode. However the outputs are still balanced. The difference is pretty much academic. Don't worry about it!
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smokey
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Post by smokey on Jan 3, 2014 9:53:04 GMT -5
smokey ,back ! PROCESSOR LOOP !!!! this is just a thought, would connecting a tube buffer to the PROCESSOR LOOP WORK? in this mode I would be able to engage and disengage the tube buffer anytime I wanted ,I would be able to A-B the difference ?
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Post by mgbpuff on Jan 3, 2014 11:05:16 GMT -5
It would work. It would defeat the fully differential balanced path through the XSP-1. Why would you buy the balanced Audio Horizon Tube Buffer (it's a little on the expensive side) if you are not going to use the balanced feature?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 3, 2014 11:32:31 GMT -5
Yes. There is a lot of confusion between Balanced and Fully Differential. If you use the Tone Trims, the inputs and outputs of the XSP-1 will still be fully balanced - with ALL of the benefits of a true balanced connection. (With the Tone Trims engaged, the actual signal path INSIDE the XSP-1 will not be fully differential - which means that the balanced signal is converted to single-ended inside the XSP-1, processed by the Tone Trim circuitry, and then converted back to fully balanced on the way out, but the inputs and outputs remain fully balanced. And, of course, all the signal paths inside the XSP-1 are really, really good quality. Generally, the reason for Fully Differential operation is to avoid even the slightest alteration of the signal; since you're using the Tone Trims to alter the signal, maintaining a fully differential signal path is simply less important when you're using them.) Keith, if I use the trim controls to mod. the HF & LF ,IS IT STILL in balance mode with the main 0utputs sending a balanced signal ? also thank-you with your quick response, I am going to try using the TRIM CONTROLS TO SMOOTH THAT HIGH END BITE |
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 3, 2014 11:46:13 GMT -5
The more I read the more glad I am I listen with my ears and not a oscilloscope....  |
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smokey
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Post by smokey on Jan 3, 2014 11:51:43 GMT -5
I try not to rush and buy something that will not be cost effective, the balanced audio horizons tube buffer is expensive over $2600.00 with cables ,but there is- DECWARE- they have
their ZBOX TUBER BUFFER, that is not balanced at a cost of about $600.00 that has got some good reviews, this is the unit that I was thinking about in the XPS-1 PROCESSOR LOOP !!!
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 3, 2014 12:26:53 GMT -5
I would not spend that kind of money for a tube buffer. You can get a nice Real Tube preamp with HT bypass for that kind of money.
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 3, 2014 12:34:04 GMT -5
I was looking at a tube buffer for my two channel and after looking at their prices I changed my mind real quick. Do your research because that is a lot of cash to throw at a buffer. If you are patient you be able to find a nice tube preamp. That is what I did and I scored a very nice used tube preamp.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jan 3, 2014 14:23:24 GMT -5
If you really want to experiment with tube sound on the cheap, there are tube buffers to be had on eBay for $100 and under - some sound good, many not so good, but it doesn't cost much to find out. (Note that many small headphone amps also have a line level output - and so can be used as a buffer.) If you want something that sounds "very tubey", but quite nice, then check out the Schiit Lyr for $449 (it's a hybrid headphone amp, but has a line out and so can be used as a preamp/buffer). I was looking at a tube buffer for my two channel and after looking at their prices I changed my mind real quick. Do your research because that is a lot of cash to throw at a buffer. If you are patient you be able to find a nice tube preamp. That is what I did and I scored a very nice used tube preamp. |
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emovac
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Post by emovac on Jan 6, 2014 1:59:46 GMT -5
KEITH, I have the XSP-1 PREAMP, I was thinking about buying the audio horizons 5.1 tube buffer,what would be the best way to connect the buffer ,it also would have balanced XLR input & output, if I connect the buffer to the main XLR output of the XSP-1 would the volume cause a problem with the tube buffer? ALSO if I were to use the Frequency Trim Control to drop down I db ? would this have the same effect as adding the tube buffer, my system has just a little high end harshness that I am trying to smooth down! what your opinion THANK-YOU HAPPY NEW YEAR I happen to own a Audio Horizons 5.1 Tube Buffer (Model TB 5.1Sn). It is a sweet device. It's nothing fancy; simple on-off, and blue indicator light to show it's on. My model buffer has both XLR and RCA input/outputs. It is expensive, but it is a well built custom device. I run my unit between the DAC, and my Integrated Amplifier. It uses one pair of 6DJ8 family tubes (6922, 7308). It will also operate with the less expensive 7DJ8. Most of my devices filter through the DAC. My configuration allows me to operate with or without the buffer in the chain, since I use both DAC outputs (one through the buffer, and one direct to the Integrated Amp). Shorter listening sessions are usually solid state only due to tube warm up time. They had a try and buy program for awhile, not sure if that's still in place. After using mine, I didn't want to send it back. Simply put, it adds a small degree of warmth to the music which is pleasing. If you have any specific questions about the tube buffer, feel free to PM me, and I will do my best to help. Good luck. |
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(To be perfectly clear here: If you want to add "tube sound" to your system, then this looks like a good - but expensive - way to do it, so by all means go for it; but don't buy it to fix a "problem".)
