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Post by rossonero3 on Dec 4, 2016 16:14:31 GMT -5
Hey Boom didn't you used to have the Jolida Glass FX DAC? I recently picked one up on the used market and plugged it in for the first time today. I noticed right away that the volume was much lower than the DAC it replaced, is this normal? Could it be because this DAC has volume control? I had it turned up to max so I could use the Peachtree's volume as I normally would.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 5, 2016 10:37:49 GMT -5
Agree with Boom on the XPA-2, the best sounding Emo amp IMO. Good enough for HT use. Sounds as if you've never had the joy of hearing a set of XPR-1's in your system! Its a shame you haven't, your statement would be very different IMHO. Im sure the XPA-2 praise is earned but you can't miss what you've never had! Well - I've had the XPA-2 AND the XPR-2. They're different amplifiers. Main difference? Treble. The XPA-2 has more treble (and midrange) dynamics than the XPR-2. Now this isn't necessarily the "advantage" that you'd think - It depends on the rest of your system. Many (most?) speakers these days have a slight treble elevation to make them stand out in the showroom. For those speakers (listening, B&W fans?), the XPR is definitely the superior amplifier. But if your speakers are stubbornly neutral, without exaggerated dynamics, sometimes the extra dynamics of the XPA amplifiers can spice things up nicely. Which is more accurate? I don't know. I'm sure that they'd measure equally flat (so much for the measurements uber alles gang...), but they definitely sound differently from one another. I'd guess that with most speakers, the XPR series would be a better match, but I'd also guess that many would actually prefer the more exciting sound of the XPA series. And that's my opinion (that and a buck will buy you a cup of McCoffee). Also, Hi rossonero3 - I have also had a Jolida Glass FX tube DAC. It was every bit as good as my Oppo's DAC, but since it wasn't consistently better, I sold it & kept the Oppo. I don't recall the output being significantly lower than my other DACs. So I can't tell you if yours is defective or not, but maybe... Mine seemed to have plenty of output.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 6, 2016 8:37:17 GMT -5
IMHO, any more, there's about as much difference in DACs as there is in speaker wires. Yes, there ARE differences, and yes, they ARE audible, but they're now so small that they're really not worth spending much money on.
The measurements crowd should, in theory, agree with this whole-heartedly since all DACs measure ruler flat. Yet I see lots of "Measurers" spending big $$$ on DACs. This seems profoundly hypocritical. The Measurers claim that since differences can't be measured in speaker cables (lamp cord vs. wierdo-wire = no difference) that nobody should spend any extra on speaker wires. Yet the same measurers spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on an upscale DAC that measures IDENTICALLY to the least expensive one on the market.
But of course, I'm wasting my keystrokes pointing it out - Measurers are never too logical to begin with.
Even a decade ago, there was a more significant difference between DAC sounds. Some of it may have been the converter chips themselves, but more likely, the differences were in the low-pass filters and the analog output buffers. Today, the filters and the analog output stages can be made relatively inaudible with inexpensive and commonly-available parts. As a result, the "spread" in DAC sounds is tightening. Now, the sonic differences between the least-expensive DACs and the most-expensive ones are becoming smaller and smaller.
Want proof? Listen to the DAC in the new Emotiva BASX components. It's an awesome DAC for less than you'd have paid for an equivalent sound at virtually any price a decade ago. My DAC for the past decade has been the Sabre Reference built into my Oppo BDP-105. It's equalled all competition even at prices up to $3K. Some DACs were "as good," but not demonstrably better. Now, though, I can buy a PT-100 ($299) or a TA-100 ($399) and their DACs are within spitting distance of the best I've heard at any price.
So the good news is manifold:
Inexpensive DACs are now available that rival the best at any cost Expensive DACs will continue to become incrementally (but, apparently, ONLY incrementally) better-sounding The technology in those expensive DACs will rapidly "trickle-down" to inexpensive products
In short, there's NEVER been a better time to be a digital audiophile. And my advice to new audiophiles entering the DAC market would be? Like speaker cables - the sonic differences in DACs are no longer worth spending any significant money on. Buy cheaply - replace frequently - and enjoy!
Boomzilla
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Post by garbulky on Dec 6, 2016 11:09:23 GMT -5
I don't know, my friend. I agree with you on the quality that inexpensive DACs are now able to produce - and it's remarkable. But I am doubtful they can compete with the leaders of the sound quality field in the more pricier units.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 6, 2016 11:11:37 GMT -5
And I'd contend that it depends on the system where the DAC is being used. Apparently, the Gumby has some synergy with your system that it didn't with mine. Does that make it "better" or just "different?"
Boom
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,235
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Post by novisnick on Dec 6, 2016 11:47:51 GMT -5
Seems to be a VERY strong case of diminishing returns! Heres my anti,,,,,
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Post by garbulky on Dec 6, 2016 11:52:24 GMT -5
And I'd contend that it depends on the system where the DAC is being used. Apparently, the Gumby has some synergy with your system that it didn't with mine. Does that make it "better" or just "different?" Boom The Gumby is both. There's no other way to put it. It is the better DAC. In your case, I do believe it's not system synergy but that more experimentation with placement and some patience while it warms up. Most of the best sound I've heard has been at your place. So I have little doubt that it can and will do your place justice!
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 6, 2016 11:58:24 GMT -5
I hear what you're saying, and I know you're sincere, but I'm not yet convinced. Until I hear an audible improvement in my own system, I'll remain skeptical.
I'd readily agree that the Berkeley Alpha DAC Reference (version 2) should sound audibly superior to the Emotiva Stealth 1, for example, but is it 39 times better ($19,500 vs. $500)? Really?
I contend that the point of diminishing returns occurs at a far, far lower price these days, and although higher ultimate performance IS possible, it comes at an absolutely absurd cost.
And I'd also contend that the difference between that Alpha Reference and the Stealth is clearly audible, and in most any system.
But the difference between a $300 DAC (Cambridge Audio DAC-Magic, for example) and a $2,000 one (Schiit Yggdrasil, for example) is too system-dependent to consistently call either "better."
So will the average consumer be better off buying a $2,000 DAC and keeping it for seven years (a virtual LIFETIME in the world of DAC development), or would the consumer be better off to buy a brand new, state of the market $300 DAC for every one of those seven years? I contend that the succession of "cheap" DACs will not only sound better by the halfway period of the "equal-cost term" but also will recover more of their value by being only a year old at the time of resale.
Your money, your choice, but I'm betting on the march of technology to keep putting better and better products into my system at lower and lower prices.
Boom
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Post by garbulky on Dec 6, 2016 12:48:52 GMT -5
Diminishing returns kick in the moment you buy anything more than absolute entry level these days. Being a tightwad myself out of necessity, value is a question I've been contemplating. Where and how does it become worth it? For me, I find that subtle differences end up to a more satisfying musical experience. So for instance in absolute terms, let's say the XDA-2 is a 7 and the DC-1 is an 8.5. Is that 1.5 points worth double the price? You could buy nearly two XDA-2's with that! But as time goes by, and I listen, I think...well I listen to a lot of audio. A loooot of it! And that 1.5 points brings the level of enjoyment up a significant amount especially over time. Then I have to think would I rather spend that money and live with more enjoyment or do without it? What's that worth for me? For me, the answer was simple, I will absolutely not go back to an XDA-2. For me that makes the unit worth the price. Having spent time with some good gear, I think back. What if I didn't have this? Would I be happy that I saved the money? To most of the ones that improved sound quality, the answer was that I'd do it again. While some I do question. The Gungnir comes in at easily double the price of the DC-1. But is it twice the DAC?! Even though it's still warming up, I am willing to say no it's not TWICE as good. But is it worth the enjoyment? Well I don't know yet. At that price level, I have to pause and think about it. For me, I tend to move slowly. When I buy the Ygdrassil, I absolutely plan to stick with it for at least a decade, or until the tech has changed so badly that I can't connect it to anything. The Audio GD HE-1 when I buy it will probably be with me till it or I breaks! My previous investment has lasted me over seven years. And I plan my next one to last me longer. When you get to the higher performance levels, every improvement costs quite a bit of money. So I'd rather jump in as high as I can and stop because it's not sustainable after that to pursue improvements. Same goes for the XPA-1 gen 2 units. So when I buy something I think of the long term. Will that increased level of enjoyment be worthwhile in the future? Not everybody wants something long term though. I think you get more enjoyment out of trying something different often to keep the level of interest and satisfaction high. As always YMMV.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 9, 2016 12:11:34 GMT -5
Well, I had the opportunity to speak with garbulky recently, and we discussed (in some depth) his impressions of the Schiit Gungnir Multibit DAC (aka the Gumby). The biggest surprise that he relayed to me is that even after a full week, he thinks that the sound of the DAC itself is still changing on a daily basis. I just didn't notice that much change myself, but I believe him. And his experience is contrary to what I've always believed about warm-up / break-in times. I have usually been one to "leave solid-state equipment on all the time." Tube gear, I always turn off when not in use. But with the tube gear, it always sounds its best after a mere 15 to 30 minutes of warm-up. Even when I've switched my solid-state gear off between uses, it also seems to sound "as good as it gets" within 15 to 30 minutes of warm-up. So why is the Gumby different? I certainly don't know... (yet another unsolvable mystery among many - How did the universe originate? Is there a God? What's with women?) LOL In any case, once the gar thinks that the Gumby has reached its apogee, I'm invited to make a pass by casa de Garbulky to hear the DAC "in situ." I'll hold off my judgement until then. Cheers - Boomzilla
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,992
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Post by KeithL on Dec 9, 2016 12:30:40 GMT -5
One might also suggest that often "it is the observer who experiences the warmup" - meaning that, when something sounds different than we're used to, we simply get used to it over time, and it comes to sound "normal". This can make things that sound odd come to sound normal over time... and it can also lead to noticing genuine improvements less and less over time because they come to seem normal... Our "audio memory" - about what the previous piece of equipment actually sounded like - tends to be quite short. (There is a proper name for this concept - something like "adaptive accommodation".) And, speaking for myself, I'm not often inclined to drag out a piece of equipment I've already replaced "just to confirm that the new one is really better - like I thought when I first got it". Well, I had the opportunity to speak with garbulky recently, and we discussed (in some depth) his impressions of the Schiit Gungnir Multibit DAC (aka the Gumby). The biggest surprise that he relayed to me is that even after a full week, he thinks that the sound of the DAC itself is still changing on a daily basis. I just didn't notice that much change myself, but I believe him. And his experience is contrary to what I've always believed about warm-up / break-in times. I have usually been one to "leave solid-state equipment on all the time." Tube gear, I always turn off when not in use. But with the tube gear, it always sounds its best after a mere 15 to 30 minutes of warm-up. Even when I've switched my solid-state gear off between uses, it also seems to sound "as good as it gets" within 15 to 30 minutes of warm-up. So why is the Gumby different? I certainly don't know... (yet another unsolvable mystery among many - How did the universe originate? Is there a God? What's with women?) LOL In any case, once the gar thinks that the Gumby has reached its apogee, I'm invited to make a pass by casa de Garbulky to hear the DAC "in situ." I'll hold off my judgement until then. Cheers - Boomzilla
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Post by gzubeck on Dec 9, 2016 13:42:38 GMT -5
I have the schiit 4490 bifrost dac. When I first purchased it sounded a bit bright and analytical. After a couple of weeks leaving it on full time it's now smooth booze. Combine that with the new a300 and it's now sonic nirvana for me. Cheers!
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 9, 2016 14:23:54 GMT -5
I have the schiit 4490 bifrost dac. When I first purchased it sounded a bit bright and analytical. After a couple of weeks leaving it on full time it's now smooth booze. Combine that with the new a300 and it's now sonic nirvana for me. Cheers! My experience is the same as Keith's, at least 50% of the "smooth" is your ears, gradually becoming adjusted to and comfortable with the different sound. If you still can, go back to the previous DAC and compare, my bet is the "bright and analytical" experience will re appear. Cheers Gary
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 9, 2016 14:42:12 GMT -5
Yep - I've definitely experienced this myself. I got an XPR-2, and initially, it sounded like it had a really recessed treble range. But after a couple of weeks, my ears adapted, and it sounded just fine.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 9, 2016 15:35:44 GMT -5
You guys! The Gungnir multibit is NOT just a solid state DAC. There's no mystery to the warming up process. It's a multibit dac that wasn't intended for audio use. It requires a long time to reach thermal equilibrium. Not because of some magic esoteric reason. If you talk to Schiit, they are firmly against bullschiit. You should hear them talk about speaker wires or even SNR. You can see they have their tongue firmly in their cheeks. But by it's nature, the multibit units Schiit uses require warm up time. So the easy explanation why one hasn't heard the warm up thing before...is because you haven't used a multibit dac that was repurposed for audio. Here is Mike Moffat's words (the designer of the first DAC and the Ygdrassil) " As I have previously opined, I believe in the value of burning in any D/A converter I have ever designed, especially multibit ones. Elsewhere I have described physical changes that occur in passive components, which are part and parcel delta-sigma as well as multibit DACs. In addition, there are temperature dependent linearity errors primarily proper to multibit DACs in particular. I can testify that I have heard differences in D/A converter products as they warm-up (that is, without signal). These differences seem to minimize as time accumulates on them."
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Post by gzubeck on Dec 9, 2016 15:46:56 GMT -5
You guys! The Gungnir multibit is NOT just a solid state DAC. There's no mystery to the warming up process. It's a multibit dac that wasn't intended for audio use. It requires a long time to reach thermal equilibrium. Not because of some magic esoteric reason. If you talk to Schiit, they are firmly against bullschiit. You should hear them talk about speaker wires or even SNR. You can see they have their tongue firmly in their cheeks. But by it's nature, the multibit units Schiit uses require warm up time. Don't laugh but I'm using heavy power outdoor lighting cable 10 gauge from home depot for $.95 cent a foot in my system. Ive had the most improvement in good rca cables from parts express.
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Post by rbk123 on Dec 9, 2016 16:09:06 GMT -5
One might also suggest that often "it is the observer who experiences the warmup" - meaning that, when something sounds different than we're used to, we simply get used to it over time, and it comes to sound "normal". This can make things that sound odd come to sound normal over time... and it can also lead to noticing genuine improvements less and less over time because they come to seem normal... Our "audio memory" - about what the previous piece of equipment actually sounded like - tends to be quite short. (There is a proper name for this concept - something like "adaptive accommodation".) Kind of coincides with equipment "break-in" period, Just sayin'.
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Post by qdtjni on Dec 9, 2016 16:27:58 GMT -5
You guys! The Gungnir multibit is NOT just a solid state DAC. There's no mystery to the warming up process. It's a multibit dac that wasn't intended for audio use. It requires a long time to reach thermal equilibrium. Not because of some magic esoteric reason. If you talk to Schiit, they are firmly against bullschiit. You should hear them talk about speaker wires or even SNR. You can see they have their tongue firmly in their cheeks. But by it's nature, the multibit units Schiit uses require warm up time. So the easy explanation why one hasn't heard the warm up thing before...is because you haven't used a multibit dac that was repurposed for audio. Here is Mike Moffat's words (the designer of the first DAC and the Ygdrassil) " As I have previously opined, I believe in the value of burning in any D/A converter I have ever designed, especially multibit ones. Elsewhere I have described physical changes that occur in passive components, which are part and parcel delta-sigma as well as multibit DACs. In addition, there are temperature dependent linearity errors primarily proper to multibit DACs in particular. I can testify that I have heard differences in D/A converter products as they warm-up (that is, without signal). These differences seem to minimize as time accumulates on them." Let's get one thing clear, the DAC is basically processing bits and the way it processes bits are the same as long as the DAC are within the range of it specified operating temperature. The DAC chips used in the multibit Schiit DACs are usually used in medical applications. Do you think they could be used in medical applications If they did miscalculate conversion just because they have not reached normal operating temperature? Having said that, I'm sure there could be other parts of the DAC that are affected from being in intended operating temperature, possibly even change the sound character through break in.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 9, 2016 16:37:02 GMT -5
You guys! The Gungnir multibit is NOT just a solid state DAC. There's no mystery to the warming up process. It's a multibit dac that wasn't intended for audio use. It requires a long time to reach thermal equilibrium. Not because of some magic esoteric reason. If you talk to Schiit, they are firmly against bullschiit. You should hear them talk about speaker wires or even SNR. You can see they have their tongue firmly in their cheeks. But by it's nature, the multibit units Schiit uses require warm up time. So the easy explanation why one hasn't heard the warm up thing before...is because you haven't used a multibit dac that was repurposed for audio. Here is Mike Moffat's words (the designer of the first DAC and the Ygdrassil) " As I have previously opined, I believe in the value of burning in any D/A converter I have ever designed, especially multibit ones. Elsewhere I have described physical changes that occur in passive components, which are part and parcel delta-sigma as well as multibit DACs. In addition, there are temperature dependent linearity errors primarily proper to multibit DACs in particular. I can testify that I have heard differences in D/A converter products as they warm-up (that is, without signal). These differences seem to minimize as time accumulates on them." Let's get one thing clear, the DAC is basically processing bits and the way it processes bits are the same as long as the DAC are within the range of it specified operating temperature. The DAC chips used in the multibit Schiit DACs are usually used in medical applications. Do you think they could be used in medical applications If they did miscalculate conversion just because they have not reached normal operating temperature? I don't know the specifics of the chip. But...in hospital use, if something is specified as needing a certain amount of time before beginning operation, then I assume it's done in such a way. However, the "acceptable time for operation" and optimal functioning time could be two different things.
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Post by qdtjni on Dec 9, 2016 16:45:04 GMT -5
I don't know the specifics of the chip. But...in hospital use, if something is specified as needing a certain amount of time before beginning operation, then I assume it's done in such a way. However, the "acceptable time for operation" and optimal functioning time could be two different things. I don't assume that it is like I said it, a DAC chip will not mis-calculate things based on it's operating temperature as long as it is within the operating range. For the DAC chips used in the multibit Gungnir that is -40 to +125 C.
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