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Post by pedrocols on Jun 19, 2019 8:09:57 GMT -5
There should be a disclaimer for reviews: "For Entertainment Purposes Only"
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Post by geeqner on Jun 19, 2019 10:15:54 GMT -5
More than welcome! Today, I hooked up the tube DAC and I'm forced to make the following conclusion - The JBL L100 Classics do NOT like tubes. I've now tried them with tube DAC + tube power amp / SS DAC + tube power amp / tube DAC + SS power amp / and SS DAC + SS power amp. The worst sound was with the all-tube combo. The best with the all-SS combo. Put a tube anywhere in the room with the JBLs and they just sound constipated, closed-in, and even glassy. Not what I expect from a $4K pair of speakers! The good news is that with some SS amplification, they can sound pretty spiffy. Review to come. Those JBLs appear to be Bass-Reflex (Tuned Port) - at least, for the Woofer I wonder if THAT is maybe the prime reason why they seem to like SS more than Tube Power Amps Per some stuff that I recently learned from one of Keith's recent enlightening posts regarding "Damping Factor" Boom probably already knows this, but for the sake of the less technically-inclined among us: Bass-Reflex Speakers allow the woofer to move more freely - providing higher efficiency (requires less power to "set them into full motion") However, once the speaker is excited and moving, there is not as much internal force as there would be with Acoustic Suspension (Sealed Enclosures) where the air inside gets compressed and help to better slow / control the motion of the Woofer Cone at the expense of lower efficiency. Counteracting this can be Damping Factor, which is a property of the Power Amp / Power Amp Section - In most Solid-State (Power) Amps - the internal circuits drive the speaker coils in a more DIRECT manner and some push-pull designs provide better "braking" action to STOP the Woofer Cone as the Power Falls (some act as a load that Absorbs energy when the speaker is decelerating - under which circumstances it temporarily acts as a "generator"). Tube (Power) Amps operate on High Internal Voltages - to drive speakers, they use Output Transformers, which convert High Voltage / Low Current into Lower Voltage / Higher current. No matter how Good / High-Quality the transformers are - they at least partially "de-couple" the speaker from circuitry that could help to "brake" the speaker cone's motion So, my "semi-educated" guess is that Bass Reflex speakers generally work better with Lower-Power Amps and/or Solid-State Amps with good Damping Factors.
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 20, 2019 5:23:12 GMT -5
In theory, you're absolutely right, geeqner (as is Mr. Levkof). In practice you're only right most of the time. There are exceptions... My ported Tekton Pendragons kicked booté when powered by my 12-watt, transformer-coupled tube amps that had almost a negative damping factor, they were so wimpy. The example (that I know of) that most illustrates damping factor is the Krell. Not only could you weld with it into dead shorts, but it had CONTROL. Probably one of the highest damping factors EVER.
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Post by geeqner on Jun 20, 2019 8:42:12 GMT -5
Yeah - My background in Engineering had taught me to FIRST trust the numbers and sound technical principles. But OTOH; years of experience also brings the "Realist" part into play = realizing that most situations involve nuances that cannot be fully explained / accurately modeled (at least, without RIDICULOUS amounts of "attention to detail" that almost nobody has the time to spend on such things...) In such cases, I NEXT Trust My EARS...
I think that the Pendragons behaved nicely with a LOW-POWERED Tube Amp (where stuff like the Damping Factor does not enter the picture as strongly and where Bass Reflex designs tend to shine) If you excited them with a higher-power Tube unit, I would expect less than optimal results when compared to an equivalent Wattage Solid-State unit with good Damping Factor.
And in most things technology-related, just like the English language - there are ALWAYS exceptions to the "rules"!
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 20, 2019 9:27:30 GMT -5
The Tekton Pendragons aren't as much of an exception as you may think.
We had a pair here for a while - although I didn't see them taken apart. However, from looking at them, and from listening to them, and tapping on the woofer, they seem to be designed very much like many vintage speakers. (From looking at them I would expect them to work well with low powered amps and amps with relatively little damping.)
A big woofer cone, which feels quite light, with a pleated suspension (which you rarely see nowadays).
A big cabinet, with big ports, and relatively little mechanical damping. And, because the woofer is light, it stores very little energy, but moves quite easily. The result is an overall system which is more tuned than damped...
Because the woofer is light, it moves easily, and delivery high efficiency. And, because it is light, it stores very little energy, so it doesn't need an amplifier that is able to deliver a lot of braking force to stop it after the signal stops. And, because the system is somewhat sharply tuned, the bass response drops off rather sharply below the tuned frequency.
Because the midrange is delivered by a big woofer, which has a large diameter relatively to the wavelengths involved, they are rather directional in the midrange, especially the upper midrange. You often read about using horns to control dispersion at various frequencies.
However, dispersion at a given frequency is inherently a function of the ratio between cone size and the wavelength at the frequency in question. For any cone size, a speaker will become more directional as the frequency gets higher, especially when the wavelength becomes smaller than the cone diameter. This is why, unless you use some sort of horn or other special setup, tweeters that deliver good dispersion at very high frequencies need to be tiny (the wavelength of sound at 10 kHz is about an inch).
If you're a fan of wide dispersion you might see the slightly limited dispersion in the upper midrange as a flaw.
However, by doing so, they also reduce wall, floor, and ceiling reflections at those frequencies... And, especially if you have a relatively live room, this should make for better imaging.
Then, when they cross over to the smaller tweeters, their dispersion then becomes relatively wide at higher frequencies... Leading to a "nice airy sound". From my personal experience... The Pendragons "sound exactly how I would expect them to sound after looking at the way they're designed".
Yeah - My background in Engineering had taught me to FIRST trust the numbers and sound technical principles. But OTOH; years of experience also brings the "Realist" part into play = realizing that most situations involve nuances that cannot be fully explained / accurately modeled (at least, without RIDICULOUS amounts of "attention to detail" that almost nobody has the time to spend on such things...) In such cases, I NEXT Trust My EARS... I think that the Pendragons behaved nicely with a LOW-POWERED Tube Amp (where stuff like the Damping Factor does not enter the picture as strongly and where Bass Reflex designs tend to shine) If you excited them with a higher-power Tube unit, I would expect less than optimal results when compared to an equivalent Wattage Solid-State unit with good Damping Factor. And in most things technology-related, just like the English language - there are ALWAYS exceptions to the "rules"!
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 20, 2019 13:58:36 GMT -5
Makes perfect sense, Keith - thank you !
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 21, 2019 20:59:17 GMT -5
Here's the error list from the latest DB. Poweramp run at converting non-WAV files to WAVs. Not bad at all...
Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Bass Mekanik/Bass Mekanik V5.0_ Essential Audio Software/13 Blufunkin.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Bass Mekanik/Bass Mekanik V5.0_ Essential Audio Software/13 Blufunkin.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open] Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Ben Ali/Chouft/04 Seba.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Ben Ali/Chouft/04 Seba.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open] Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Canned Heat/The Canned Heat Cookbook/02 Let's Work Together.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Canned Heat/The Canned Heat Cookbook/02 Let's Work Together.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open] Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/James Galway & Kazuhito Yamashita/Italian Serenade - J. Galway & K. Yamashita/02 Guiliani, Grand Duo Concertant In A, Op. 85 - Andante Molto Sostenuto.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/James Galway & Kazuhito Yamashita/Italian Serenade - J. Galway & K. Yamashita/02 Guiliani, Grand Duo Concertant In A, Op. 85 - Andante Molto Sostenuto.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open]
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 22, 2019 11:40:09 GMT -5
I WAS WRONG -
i had previously calculated the SPL needed to make four subwoofers output the same volume as two speakers. But I fouled up the formulas. I treated all subs as if they were random, uncorrelated sound sources (such as would be the case if two power saws in a shop, the same distance from the microphone, were simultaneously running). But this is not the case with subwoofers.
Since I'm running my subs in stereo, the two right-channel and the two left-channel subs will be correlated their matching satellite speakers, but not with each other. In other words, I want the two right subs to output the identical SPL as the right speaker, and the two left ones to do the same with the left speaker.
Therefore:
The right and left channels are not correlated - each channel will have its own frequencies. The two right subwoofers will be correlated - They should act as a single sub, in reverse phase from the right satellite speaker at the crossover frequency (since I'm using even-order crossover - either 12 or 24 dB / octavos).
The two left subwoofers will be correlated to match the left satellite (again, with reversed phase at the crossover frequency)
With the new calculations, I'm coming up with ~79 dB per sub to match the 85 dB of that channel's satellite.
After rough level matching, I'll need to phase match all three sources (satellite and two subs) and then do the sub levels again to fine-tune them.
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 22, 2019 16:52:32 GMT -5
Well, I fired up my RAIS (Redundant Array of Inexpensive Subwoofers) this afternoon, and even without positioning, level-matching, or phase adjustment, they sound VERY good. I've got the Klipsch on the floor, with a Martin Logan Dynamo 500 sitting on top of it. On the other side of the room, I have the Velodyne on the floor near the satellite speaker, and the Emotiva X-Ref 10 in a corner, sitting on top of a cabinet. So I've got both lateral and vertical displacement between the subs, and they're already very smooth in frequency response. I still need to phase them to get them singing in unison, and then tweak levels to better match the satellites, but holey moley - this setup has potential!
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 23, 2019 9:11:50 GMT -5
Here's the error list from the latest DB. Poweramp run at converting non-WAV files to WAVs. Not bad at all... Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Bass Mekanik/Bass Mekanik V5.0_ Essential Audio Software/13 Blufunkin.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Bass Mekanik/Bass Mekanik V5.0_ Essential Audio Software/13 Blufunkin.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open] Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Ben Ali/Chouft/04 Seba.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Ben Ali/Chouft/04 Seba.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open] Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Canned Heat/The Canned Heat Cookbook/02 Let's Work Together.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Canned Heat/The Canned Heat Cookbook/02 Let's Work Together.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open] Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/James Galway & Kazuhito Yamashita/Italian Serenade - J. Galway & K. Yamashita/02 Guiliani, Grand Duo Concertant In A, Op. 85 - Andante Molto Sostenuto.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/James Galway & Kazuhito Yamashita/Italian Serenade - J. Galway & K. Yamashita/02 Guiliani, Grand Duo Concertant In A, Op. 85 - Andante Molto Sostenuto.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open] So, with all my camping the last several days, I must have missed something. So, you are now converting non-wav to WAV. What that part of your Roon issue or something different? Mark
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 23, 2019 10:19:44 GMT -5
So, with all my camping the last several days, I must have missed something. So, you are now converting non-wav to WAV. What that part of your Roon issue or something different? Mark I found another spare backup drive with all the music on it. So I decided to see if I could get rid of the older CODECs, and get everything to WAV format. Why? When the new iTunes Music comes out, I may try that software yet again. What I'm finding, in a nutshell, is that there is NO perfect streaming software. Every one has its plusses and minuses. My comments on the trio of contenders so far: iTunes has an easy-to-use interface with a built-in disc ripper, the best import function that I've found, and generally works OK, but in my experience, it has been known to lose music files, will not stream over Ethernet without a "helper program" such as Airfoil, and won't use TIDAL. I"m hoping that the first two of the three negatives will be fixed in the new iTunes-Music release. But as of right now, the program's propensity to turn files into "Flying Dutchmen" is a serious problem. jRiver Media Center has a less intuitive interface, but it does have a built-in disc-ripper. OTOH, it has been proven to down-rez music files from CD-quality to MP3 in the background, and without telling you when streaming over Ethernet, and many of the switches in the program (enabling and disabling features) just do not work at all, despite being in the correct positions. As of right now, the program's tendency to down-rez Ethernet streams is its biggest negative. Roon has an easy-to-use interface, but one of the most problematic import functions of all the softwares. Roon, OTOH, does support TIDAL and streams over Ethernet without changing the music's CODEC. Roon, however, lacks a built-in disc ripper, and this, combined with its problematic import functions (and its cost) make it less than my favorite. As of right now, I'm still trying to use Roon, but am looking for better alternatives. Boomzilla
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 23, 2019 10:53:12 GMT -5
So, with all my camping the last several days, I must have missed something. So, you are now converting non-wav to WAV. What that part of your Roon issue or something different? Mark I found another spare backup drive with all the music on it. So I decided to see if I could get rid of the older CODECs, and get everything to WAV format. Why? When the new iTunes Music comes out, I may try that software yet again. What I'm finding, in a nutshell, is that there is NO perfect streaming software. Every one has its plusses and minuses. My comments on the trio of contenders so far: iTunes has an easy-to-use interface with a built-in disc ripper, the best import function that I've found, and generally works OK, but in my experience, it has been known to lose music files, will not stream over Ethernet without a "helper program" such as Airfoil, and won't use TIDAL. I"m hoping that the first two of the three negatives will be fixed in the new iTunes-Music release. But as of right now, the program's propensity to turn files into "Flying Dutchmen" is a serious problem. jRiver Media Center has a less intuitive interface, but it does have a built-in disc-ripper. OTOH, it has been proven to down-rez music files from CD-quality to MP3 in the background, and without telling you when streaming over Ethernet, and many of the switches in the program (enabling and disabling features) just do not work at all, despite being in the correct positions. As of right now, the program's tendency to down-rez Ethernet streams is its biggest negative. Roon has an easy-to-use interface, but one of the most problematic import functions of all the softwares. Roon, OTOH, does support TIDAL and streams over Ethernet without changing the music's CODEC. Roon, however, lacks a built-in disc ripper, and this, combined with its problematic import functions (and its cost) make it less than my favorite. As of right now, I'm still trying to use Roon, but am looking for better alternatives. Boomzilla Interesting comparison between the 3. I've never used iTunes so I can't speak to that. But, it's interesting that you have the issues you have had with jRiver and Roon. I never have either of those issues. I will add to your comment on jRiver...their customer service is among the worst I have experienced. They say they have features in their upgrades, sometimes do not actually have them, once they get caught with them not working - they say they are fixing that and if you wait past their 30 days while they try to fix it? They will not refund the cost of the upgrade. I had to file a dispute with my CC company to get reimbursed. And, the owner of the company was very rude to me during the whole process. I will never pay for anything else from them. My offer to help try to narrow the issues you are having with Roon stands. Mark
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 23, 2019 11:01:39 GMT -5
Interesting.... It would be interesting to know exactly what's behind that "error opening tag reader" error... I suspect it might mean that the tag reader module of the program crashed from encountering tags in some non-standard format. (But that's just a guess... however it would be interesting to look at those files in a different tag reader and see if they look "odd"). Here's the error list from the latest DB. Poweramp run at converting non-WAV files to WAVs. Not bad at all... Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Bass Mekanik/Bass Mekanik V5.0_ Essential Audio Software/13 Blufunkin.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Bass Mekanik/Bass Mekanik V5.0_ Essential Audio Software/13 Blufunkin.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open] Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Ben Ali/Chouft/04 Seba.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Ben Ali/Chouft/04 Seba.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open] Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Canned Heat/The Canned Heat Cookbook/02 Let's Work Together.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/Canned Heat/The Canned Heat Cookbook/02 Let's Work Together.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open] Error converting to Wave, '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/James Galway & Kazuhito Yamashita/Italian Serenade - J. Galway & K. Yamashita/02 Guiliani, Grand Duo Concertant In A, Op. 85 - Andante Molto Sostenuto.m4a' to '/Volumes/Media2/MUSIC/James Galway & Kazuhito Yamashita/Italian Serenade - J. Galway & K. Yamashita/02 Guiliani, Grand Duo Concertant In A, Op. 85 - Andante Molto Sostenuto.wav' Error opening tag reader. [Open]
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 23, 2019 11:17:05 GMT -5
...My offer to help try to narrow the issues you are having with Roon stands. Mark Thank you, Mark - If we ever meet, I'll owe you a nice dinner, for sure. That said, I don't want to impose on your time UNLESS I'm firmly committed to staying with Roon. And at this point, that decision hasn't yet been made. Being an Apple user, I'm willing to give them one last chance to do with their Apple-iTunes-Music program what they didn't seem to quite accomplish in their iTunes one. If they fix their problems (or even just the worst ones), I'm willing to go that way. OTOH, if their new program is overly Apple-centric, then Roon's definitely my second choice. Thanks again for the generous offer, and I'll definitely keep you in mind should I end up in the Roon camp. Boom
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 23, 2019 11:28:03 GMT -5
I would have to agree - I've never seen a streaming program whose interface I actually liked. (But I've also never seen even a player program whose interface I couldn't find fault with either.) I very much doubt that iTunes will ever support Tidal or QoBuz. Remember that iTunes is a free program whose purpose is to encourage you to get your music from its soponsor - Apple. Apple sells streaming service - but iTunes is free. It would make little sense for them to make it easier in any way to purchase streaming service from their competitors. (The only exception would be if they started charging for iTunes - or charged extra for the option of being able to connect to their competitors.) I've never streamed using jRiver.... However, I very much suspect that it wouldn't down-rez music unless it considered doing so "unavoidable". (But, of course, everyone has their own way of deciding when there's a problem.) Bear in mind that, when you stream music, you are at the mercy of the stream itself. If the stream itself stops for a few seconds, you either have a nasty dropout, or the playback stops entirely. Therefore, most programs are going to fall back to something like MP3 if they see such a failure as being likely or imminent... The only alternative is to use a larger buffer - which means you will encounter a longer delay every time something new starts to play. And, of course, the higher-res the format, the more bandwidth it needs, and the larger buffer it needs. (If you have a really fast, and really solid, Internet connection, you should be able to avoid both.) I have personally never considered the lack of a built-in CD ripper to be a drawback. In fact - quite the opposite. I would much rather choose a separate, and more full featured, CD ripper that does exactly what I want, than trust the one built into any player. Before I switched to dBPowerAmp, I used to use Exact Audio Copy... which was quite powerful... and free... but complicated and annoying to actually use. dBPowerAmp does everything I want it to do (or, let's face it, everything I can even imagine wanting to do). For editing or fixing tags or file names after the fact I would recommend something called Tag & Rename. I don't think it's been updated in several years - and it is quite complicated - but it seems to get the job done. I should note that I've always considered my CD ripper, my music library, and my music player to be different things entirely - with different requirements. I want my music library to be in a standard format that will work with any player I choose. I want my player to support any standard format I might have or run into. And I want my ripper to be able to output both tags, file names, and an actual file structure, that will work with most standard players. I dislike programs that lock me into any specific system or ecosystem. So, with all my camping the last several days, I must have missed something. So, you are now converting non-wav to WAV. What that part of your Roon issue or something different? Mark I found another spare backup drive with all the music on it. So I decided to see if I could get rid of the older CODECs, and get everything to WAV format. Why? When the new iTunes Music comes out, I may try that software yet again. What I'm finding, in a nutshell, is that there is NO perfect streaming software. Every one has its plusses and minuses. My comments on the trio of contenders so far: iTunes has an easy-to-use interface with a built-in disc ripper, the best import function that I've found, and generally works OK, but in my experience, it has been known to lose music files, will not stream over Ethernet without a "helper program" such as Airfoil, and won't use TIDAL. I"m hoping that the first two of the three negatives will be fixed in the new iTunes-Music release. But as of right now, the program's propensity to turn files into "Flying Dutchmen" is a serious problem. jRiver Media Center has a less intuitive interface, but it does have a built-in disc-ripper. OTOH, it has been proven to down-rez music files from CD-quality to MP3 in the background, and without telling you when streaming over Ethernet, and many of the switches in the program (enabling and disabling features) just do not work at all, despite being in the correct positions. As of right now, the program's tendency to down-rez Ethernet streams is its biggest negative. Roon has an easy-to-use interface, but one of the most problematic import functions of all the softwares. Roon, OTOH, does support TIDAL and streams over Ethernet without changing the music's CODEC. Roon, however, lacks a built-in disc ripper, and this, combined with its problematic import functions (and its cost) make it less than my favorite. As of right now, I'm still trying to use Roon, but am looking for better alternatives. Boomzilla
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jun 23, 2019 12:43:21 GMT -5
...OTOH, if their new program is overly Apple-centric... An Apple product being overly Apple-centric? That a new Apple product will be overly Apple-centric is nearly as sure of a bet that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. LOL! (And don't feel like you'd be owing me anything to help...happy to help test. This problem has me quite curious) Mark
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 23, 2019 14:12:17 GMT -5
...I've never streamed using jRiver.... However, I very much suspect that it wouldn't down-rez music unless it considered doing so "unavoidable".... What you say would be reasonable and expected. But that's not what I experienced. This issue was discovered while reviewing a McIntosh DAC that was good at outputting full information about what it was receiving. While listening, I selected a cut from my library, and then noticed that the Mac said it was receiving MP3 from jRiver. Out of curiosity, I shut down jRiver, opened Roon, and played the same cut. The Mac now said it was receiving 44-16 data. To make sure that this wasn't a fluke, I played a bunch more cuts. On ⅔ of them, jRiver sent MP3 while Roon played every one of them at blue book quality. Both programs were using the same destination (the Oppo), and nothing changed at the server other than the software being used. I later did some research and found a switch in jRiver that instructed the program to send files in their original format. I enabled that switch, then checked again. jRiver continued to down-res to MP3 on ⅔ of the tracks. That's when I decided that the switches in jRiver were not trustworthy. So despite the reasonable assumption that no program would deliberately down-res your music without just cause, I'm not convinced that jRiver isn't doing exactly that. So jRiver lies to me by ignoring my user settings and reduces my music resolution without telling me. Roon doesn't. Who am I to blow against the wind? Boom
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Post by drtrey3 on Jun 23, 2019 18:18:39 GMT -5
I am experimenting with using a Plex server. While it is early in the process, the family finds it easy to use.
Trey
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Post by GreenKiwi on Jun 23, 2019 22:26:19 GMT -5
I later did some research and found a switch in jRiver that instructed the program to send files in their original format. I enabled that switch, then checked again. jRiver continued to down-res to MP3 on ⅔ of the tracks. That's when I decided that the switches in jRiver were not trustworthy. So despite the reasonable assumption that no program would deliberately down-res your music without just cause, I'm not convinced that jRiver isn't doing exactly that. Well, I think that I'd be jumping on the Roon ship sine I think that the UI is much nicer. I don't know that I'll be upgrading JRMC in the future, that being said I do enjoy being able to stream to my phone even when I'm out and about. If I remember correctly there were a couple different places where the streaming quality might be settable and they call could override it. I think they are attempting to down res for network issues... but it seems unlikely that would happen in a local network. I have found that their forums are pretty good at getting answers. On a side note, can one stream to one's phone with Roon?
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Post by boomzilla on Jun 24, 2019 11:39:29 GMT -5
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