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Post by mfeust on Mar 31, 2020 10:11:24 GMT -5
And just a FYI - Don't bother trying to equalize deeper bass out of the Emotiva T2 speakers. You can pump up the jams all you want - the speakers just DO NOT go any lower than they do sans any equalization at all. And I also think that Emotiva's "-3dB @ 35 Hz." spec is somewhat optimistic. In my room, I'm getting maybe 45 Hz. and certainly no less than 40. And this brings me to a question, please - I'd like to equalize the bass going to the subwoofers only. In other words, I want the full-range preamp output to be split into high and low pass legs, somewhere between 75 and 100 Hz. The high-pass section will go to the Emotiva T2 speakers with no equalization at all. The low-pass leg, I'd like to EQ for flatter response. I see two options - analog or digital EQ. To do digital, I'd need a "Mini-DSP" with an additional A-D and D-A conversion. But since this is bass only, it shouldn't hurt the sound quality. To EQ in the analog domain, I'd need a stereo ⅓ octave analog equalizer. Any suggestions on which would be best? Thanks - Boomzilla Doesn't the XSP-1 do exactly what your looking to do? Mark
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Post by dsonyay on Mar 31, 2020 10:41:43 GMT -5
Paul W. Klipsch firmly believed, based on research done by Bell Telephone Laboratories, that the minimum number of speakers needed to fool the brain into thinking it was hearing a live performance was three. Therefore, way back when (long before the advent of home theater), he designed a box that would take right and left stereo speaker-level inputs, and synthesize a monophonic center channel without significantly damaging the stereo separation of the right and left speakers. The box would output a volume-controlled "line level" signal capable of driving a center power amplifier (and speaker). About a decade ago, I built one of those, and still have it. I never even used it because I found an AVR at a yard sale that made the box academic. However, I have a spare amplifier, a spare center speaker, and a curiosity about how the setup might actually sound, using higher-quality components than an AVR can offer. So, being of inquisitive mind and foolish disposition, I plan to try out the concept and I'll let you know what I think of it. I think the Heresy was designed as the center speaker
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Post by tchaik on Mar 31, 2020 14:47:24 GMT -5
It looks like a nice amplifier... and I have no doubt that it will outlive us all.... However... 450 watts/channel... for $9k... with a spec'ed damping factor of 40... I think I'll pass. (Or, lets say, I think I'd much rather have an XPA-DR2.)
I do agree that it takes excellent engineering to deliver good low THD through a transformer... And, for that matter, it must have incredibly good transformers to deliver a damping factor even as high as 40...
And, likewise, it's cool that they can deliver the same rated power into 2 Ohms, 4 Ohms, or 8 Ohms (although it would impress me more if I had 2 Ohm speakers).
And I'm sure it sounds just fine (probably; as long as your speakers aren't too fussy about damping). But, yes, it is lovely, and I very much like the big blue meters. As for "pride of ownership"... I guess that means different things to different folks... Personally, I buy my audio gear to actually listen to...
So, to me, how it sounds is my only major concern...
And not to impress myself... or anyone else... (But, yeah, I would love to see those big blue meters on an XPA-DR2...)
Sorry, KeithL, read and weep - from a recent McIntosh review in Stereophile: “Summing up the McIntosh MC462's measured performance is easy: It is an extraordinarily well-engineered, exceptionally powerful amplifier.—John Atkinson” As all their products are.....tube as well as ss. To many, pride of ownership counts. Depends on whether you think of your system as appliances or instruments. big blue meters yeah........
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Post by boomzilla on Mar 31, 2020 18:02:48 GMT -5
Doesn't the XSP-1 do exactly what your looking to do? Mark Hi mfeust - No - it doesn't. Why? 1. The XSP-1 will do bass management in the analog domain, but it doesn't sound very good doing it. Why would I want to spend $$$ to get the best sound out of all my other components, and then let a preamp throw away those gains? I've owned the generations 1 and 2 versions of the XSP-1 (the generation two at least twice), and was never pleased with the sound. 2. The XSP-1, despite having tone controls, has no equalization (DSP or analog) that applies only to the bass. I don't want EQ for the frequencies above 100 Hz - only for the subwoofers. The XSP-1's lack of sub-tuning ability keeps it out of consideration for me. 3. I already have a better-sounding preamp, and don't wish to swap it out for one that doesn't sound as good. But thanks anyway...
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Post by boomzilla on Mar 31, 2020 18:04:39 GMT -5
I think the Heresy was designed as the center speaker It was, as was the Belle Klipsch.
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Post by boomzilla on Mar 31, 2020 19:25:05 GMT -5
The MiniDSP is going to give you a LOT more options -... At its price of $1,200, it ought to! I don't think I need that level of expense for 100-hz-and-below info. I can buy a used 31 band/channel graphic EQ for under $100. Since its cheap "pro" circuitry won't be connected to the main speakers' signal path at all, any deleterious effects of its funky op-amps and non-polarized electrolytic caps will be inaudible in the bass. For the order of magnitude price difference, it's worth trying. Signal path will be: Volume-controlled preamp output with a splitter for each channel Leg one of splitter: Full-range signal goes to 100 Hz. high-pass filter via inline Harrison Labs feeding the main power amp Leg two of splitter: Full-range signal goes to graphic equalizer & equalizer output then goes to plate amp on subwoofer where 100 Hz. low-pass filter is applied Crossover region phase and blend to be determined by REW software & calibrated UMIK microphone from the listening position for each individual channel. That way, room correction and crossover smoothing are unique to each individual channel. If the Harrison Labs inline crossovers prove to be audible in any negative way, I'll build my own first order crossover and run the main speakers' signal through that. To create a match with the subwoofer's 12 dB / octave internal crossover, I can use the graphic equalizer to add another 6 dB / octave cutoff for the subs. That will give me a first order crossover with a slope of 6 dB / octave on the main speakers and 18 dB / octave for the subs - And the crossover phase should match and not create dips. Could this be done more elegantly with the Mini-DSP? You betcha - but at 10x the cost...
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Post by tchaik on Apr 1, 2020 9:39:59 GMT -5
Doesn't the XSP-1 do exactly what your looking to do? Mark Hi mfeust - No - it doesn't. Why? 1. The XSP-1 will do bass management in the analog domain, but it doesn't sound very good doing it. Why would I want to spend $$$ to get the best sound out of all my other components, and then let a preamp throw away those gains? I've owned the generations 1 and 2 versions of the XSP-1 (the generation two at least twice), and was never pleased with the sound. 2. The XSP-1, despite having tone controls, has no equalization (DSP or analog) that applies only to the bass. I don't want EQ for the frequencies above 100 Hz - only for the subwoofers. The XSP-1's lack of sub-tuning ability keeps it out of consideration for me. 3. I already have a better-sounding preamp, and don't wish to swap it out for one that doesn't sound as good. But thanks anyway... my experience has been quite different. I am using the xsp-1 with my Statements, and Dayton 15" subs using the xsp-1 xover and the transition is seamless. have compared back and forth to the T-2s and the Statements/dayton subs are a better combination (but much more expensive). I have no complaints about the sound of the XSP-1.
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 1, 2020 10:13:00 GMT -5
Hi tchaik - A LOT of people just love the XSP-1 for its flexibility, its features, and yes, its sound. But that particular preamp has just never struck my ears as being something I wanted to keep. The XSP-1's specs are great - it's features are ideal - and the vast majority who try it seem to be good with its sound. I've tried ( really hard) to love it - and multiple times. But it's just not the preamp for me. I liked the TP-100 better. What can I say? If you like your XSP-1, and you obviously do - along with a BUNCH of other people - I'm very happy that you found a preamp you like for such a great price. Boom
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Post by tchaik on Apr 1, 2020 10:40:10 GMT -5
Hi tchaik - A LOT of people just love the XSP-1 for its flexibility, its features, and yes, its sound. But that particular preamp has just never struck my ears as being something I wanted to keep. The XSP-1's specs are great - it's features are ideal - and the vast majority who try it seem to be good with its sound. I've tried ( really hard) to love it - and multiple times. But it's just not the preamp for me. I liked the TP-100 better. What can I say? If you like your XSP-1, and you obviously do - along with a BUNCH of other people - I'm very happy that you found a preamp you like for such a great price. Boom the greatness of this hobby. multiple choices, multiple opinions. thanks for the response. may the force be with you. btw... if you meant the PT-100, I am very impressed with that preamp too. I own it also. if you meant some other preamp, ignore my last statement.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Apr 1, 2020 10:50:34 GMT -5
Hi tchaik - A LOT of people just love the XSP-1 for its flexibility, its features, and yes, its sound. But that particular preamp has just never struck my ears as being something I wanted to keep. The XSP-1's specs are great - it's features are ideal - and the vast majority who try it seem to be good with its sound. I've tried ( really hard) to love it - and multiple times. But it's just not the preamp for me. I liked the TP-100 better. What can I say? If you like your XSP-1, and you obviously do - along with a BUNCH of other people - I'm very happy that you found a preamp you like for such a great price. Boom the greatness of this hobby. multiple choices, multiple opinions. thanks for the response. may the force be with you. btw... if you meant the PT-100, I am very impressed with that preamp too. I own it also. if you meant some other preamp, ignore my last statement. We are all searching for TP these days!!!
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Post by jackfish on Apr 1, 2020 19:50:42 GMT -5
We are all searching for TP these days!!! The question would be why? People are *bleep* nuts.
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 1, 2020 23:09:54 GMT -5
PT TP XPS XSP I've grumped for years about Emotiva's product naming. Give me a name I can remember! A "rabid raccoon" amp would be memorable, for example...
Apparently why I'm NOT in marketing!
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 2, 2020 4:40:53 GMT -5
The Audio-gd DAC-19 is rich and gorgeous sounding in my system, but a bit too dark for my taste. MY Auralic Vega is currently on loan to a friend, so I may try the Oppo as a DAC again. It won't have the dimensionality of the Audio-gd (or the Vega), but it will be bright and cheerful. The analog balanced outputs of the Oppo still seem to be working (maybe the only ones so), and the Oppo repair group is down indefinitely. So I'll need to make do with what is on hand. My gut feeling is that I'll be much better off using the Oppo's DAC with either the Audio-gd preamplifier or the passive preamp instead of trying to use the internal variable volume of the Oppo itself. The Audio-gd company will be sending their new "Vacuum HE-1" balanced preamplifier for review. I'm looking forward to hearing what their first tube attempt sounds like! NOTE: The image above is for their single-ended preamp, not the balanced one.
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 3, 2020 15:39:09 GMT -5
And my Oppo has finally died. Sic transit gloria mundi.
It will still play discs and videos, but the only live output remaining is the HDMI one. None of my DACs have HDMI inputs and ALL of the Oppo's analog outputs just hum (and fairly loudly) if you try to use them. Whenever it's safe to work again without spreading viroids, I'll get the Oppo fixed. Until then...
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Post by audiobill on Apr 3, 2020 17:06:17 GMT -5
It looks like a nice amplifier... and I have no doubt that it will outlive us all....
However... 450 watts/channel... for $9k... with a spec'ed damping factor of 40... I think I'll pass. (Or, lets say, I think I'd much rather have an XPA-DR2.)
I do agree that it takes excellent engineering to deliver good low THD through a transformer... And, for that matter, it must have incredibly good transformers to deliver a damping factor even as high as 40...
And, likewise, it's cool that they can deliver the same rated power into 2 Ohms, 4 Ohms, or 8 Ohms (although it would impress me more if I had 2 Ohm speakers).
And I'm sure it sounds just fine (probably; as long as your speakers aren't too fussy about damping). But, yes, it is lovely, and I very much like the big blue meters.
As for "pride of ownership"... I guess that means different things to different folks... Personally, I buy my audio gear to actually listen to...
So, to me, how it sounds is my only major concern...
And not to impress myself... or anyone else... (But, yeah, I would love to see those big blue meters on an XPA-DR2...)
Sorry, KeithL, read and weep - from a recent McIntosh review in Stereophile: “Summing up the McIntosh MC462's measured performance is easy: It is an extraordinarily well-engineered, exceptionally powerful amplifier.—John Atkinson” As all their products are.....tube as well as ss. To many, pride of ownership counts. Depends on whether you think of your system as appliances or instruments. Just saw this... Somehow willing to bet, with 70 years' experience under their collective belts, McIntosh has figured out what works and what doesn't. For example, the use of autoformers, while adding cost and shipping weight, protects the output stage, allows consistent amplifier performance into any load, and results in a long, reliable life. And a damping factor of 40 is just fine, and you know it. Shortcuts, like the use of Class H power supplies to reduce build cost and shipping weight and cheap, exploding capacitors to save a buck embraced by some just aren't their deal. Never have been, and never will be, hence market leading life you note and resale as a % of purchase price. The envy of the industry. Bill
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Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Apr 3, 2020 18:06:34 GMT -5
It looks like a nice amplifier... and I have no doubt that it will outlive us all....
However... 450 watts/channel... for $9k... with a spec'ed damping factor of 40... I think I'll pass. (Or, lets say, I think I'd much rather have an XPA-DR2.)
I do agree that it takes excellent engineering to deliver good low THD through a transformer... And, for that matter, it must have incredibly good transformers to deliver a damping factor even as high as 40...
And, likewise, it's cool that they can deliver the same rated power into 2 Ohms, 4 Ohms, or 8 Ohms (although it would impress me more if I had 2 Ohm speakers).
And I'm sure it sounds just fine (probably; as long as your speakers aren't too fussy about damping). But, yes, it is lovely, and I very much like the big blue meters.
As for "pride of ownership"... I guess that means different things to different folks... Personally, I buy my audio gear to actually listen to...
So, to me, how it sounds is my only major concern...
And not to impress myself... or anyone else... (But, yeah, I would love to see those big blue meters on an XPA-DR2...)
Just saw this... Somehow willing to bet, with 70 years' experience under their collective belts, McIntosh has figured out what works and what doesn't. For example, the use of autoformers, while adding cost and shipping weight, protects the output stage, allows consistent amplifier performance into any load, and results in a long, reliable life. And a damping factor of 40 is just fine, and you know it. Shortcuts, like the use of Class H power supplies to reduce build cost and shipping weight and cheap, exploding capacitors to save a buck embraced by some just aren't their deal. Never have been, and never will be, hence market leading life and resale as a % of purchase price. The envy of the industry. An analogy - while a Nissan Versa may get you from A to B in an economical, somewhat pedestrian fashion, the ownership experience, performance, and yes, pride of ownership are in another whole league when compared to any German sports sedan I can think of. Live just a little, @keithl Do you good. Bill I own the MC462 and I bought it blind when it was first released. It is by far the best sounding amp I’ve ever owned by a large margin and I have an MC275 class A tube amp that doesn’t sound nearly as natural and dynamic as the MC462. It’s expensive as hell but it ended my years of Amp shopping and upgrading.
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Post by lehighvalleyjeff on Apr 3, 2020 18:12:14 GMT -5
And my Oppo has finally died. Sic transit gloria mundi. It will still play discs and videos, but the only live output remaining is the HDMI one. None of my DACs have HDMI inputs and ALL of the Oppo's analog outputs just hum (and fairly loudly) if you try to use them. Whenever it's safe to work again without spreading viroids, I'll get the Oppo fixed. Until then... Sounds like a bad ground or something simple. My buddy up here does all my custom mods and rebuilds. PM me and I will ask him to look into fixing it for you. Might cost $40 or so for round trip shipping.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 3, 2020 18:12:28 GMT -5
And my Oppo has finally died. Sic transit gloria mundi. It will still play discs and videos, but the only live output remaining is the HDMI one. None of my DACs have HDMI inputs and ALL of the Oppo's analog outputs just hum (and fairly loudly) if you try to use them. Whenever it's safe to work again without spreading viroids, I'll get the Oppo fixed. Until then... My condolences...will there be a service? I won't be able to attend due to COVID-19, but I would love to attend via video in case you set up a service via Skype or something. Mark
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Post by boomzilla on Apr 3, 2020 19:25:12 GMT -5
If my better half gets her way, it'll be a cremation (and the subs with it)! LOL
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Apr 3, 2020 19:29:55 GMT -5
Perhaps a Viking style funeral...send it on down the river in a funeral pyre. The people downstream will wonder what the heck is happening up in Baton Rouge!?!?!?
Mark
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