|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 11, 2020 13:24:13 GMT -5
May want to consider the Tekton Double Impacts, love mine You know, foggy1956 - That's a DAMN good idea! The Double Impact line has that critical midrange driver whose lack was bedeviling me on the Pendragons. The speakers are high-sensitivity, and image well. Besides, they come in wife-irritating custom colors! They're also less expensive than many of the other speakers I'm considering... Thanks for the shout-out!
|
|
|
Post by mountain on Apr 11, 2020 13:59:43 GMT -5
Since Thiel 5i speakers are rarer than hen's teeth, probably not shippable without damage, and unlikely to have drivers and crossovers intact, I think I should probably eliminate them from consideration. Although they would have been nice... Dahlquist DQ-10a speakers are readily available and not too expensive, but there would still be the cost of custom stands. A Dahlquist DQ-20i speaker might work in my room (with or without subwoofers) and would likely suffice for the volumes I listen at. A Thiel 3.0 speaker with subwoofers would be equivalent to the DQ-20i. But every one of the above speakers are discontinued models with questionable drivers and crossovers. And the availability of replacement parts is on the steady decline. So what contemporary speakers would provide equivalent performance? Off the top of my head... Possibly vertically stacked Emotiva T2s? Golden Ear's top of the line Definitive Technology's Bi-Polar models Magnepan 3.7i speakers Klipsch La Scalas (or Klipschorns) with a tube amp The Emotivas, Klipsches, and Magnepan's would definitely need subwoofers - the Golden Ear and DefTech speakers probably wouldn't. Boom, I have the original def. tech. BP2000’s with built in subs. Great speaker for my ears and room. I ran them as is for many years. About a year and a half ago I added a very nice outlaw sub in my rather large room. I believe I have the cutoff set at 50 hz. A sweet move, worth every penny. Cheers.
|
|
|
Post by brubacca on Apr 11, 2020 14:40:41 GMT -5
Boomzilla,
I am really liking Monitor Audio these days. The Silver Line is stupid good. I also really like the Gold Series. The first time I understood the term Light and airy tweeter was with a pair of Gold 300.
For me anything, but the Bookshelf Gold 100 is very out of budget.
With companies putting ribbon tweeters on their 2-3k line I'm hoping Monitor puts the ribbon tweeter on the next silver series whenever it comes out (possibly 2-3 years??)
I acquired an old pair of Monitor Audio Silver RS8 and love them. I just made the mistake of putting them in the HT, which increased the enjoyment there (I also got the matching center), but I miss them at the stereo.
|
|
|
Post by gsand on Apr 11, 2020 15:04:04 GMT -5
Since Thiel 5i speakers are rarer than hen's teeth, probably not shippable without damage, and unlikely to have drivers and crossovers intact, I think I should probably eliminate them from consideration. Although they would have been nice... Dahlquist DQ-10a speakers are readily available and not too expensive, but there would still be the cost of custom stands. A Dahlquist DQ-20i speaker might work in my room (with or without subwoofers) and would likely suffice for the volumes I listen at. A Thiel 3.0 speaker with subwoofers would be equivalent to the DQ-20i. But every one of the above speakers are discontinued models with questionable drivers and crossovers. And the availability of replacement parts is on the steady decline. So what contemporary speakers would provide equivalent performance? Off the top of my head... Possibly vertically stacked Emotiva T2s? Golden Ear's top of the line Definitive Technology's Bi-Polar models Magnepan 3.7i speakers Klipsch La Scalas (or Klipschorns) with a tube amp The Emotivas, Klipsches, and Magnepan's would definitely need subwoofers - the Golden Ear and DefTech speakers probably wouldn't. May want to consider the Tekton Double Impacts, love mine I agree! I just ordered a second pair of DI's with the upgrades
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 11, 2020 18:08:24 GMT -5
Boom, I have the original def. tech. BP2000’s with built in subs. Great speaker for my ears and room. I ran them as is for many years. About a year and a half ago I added a very nice outlaw sub in my rather large room. I believe I have the cutoff set at 50 hz. A sweet move, worth every penny. Cheers. Thanks, mountain - Valuable information! What kind of bass extension were you getting with the BP-2000's built in powered woofers? ALSO... It's time to consider costs vs. performance ratios: Using list pricing for brand new speaker pairs: Golden Ear Triton Reference R1 = $10,000 / pair - Performance = 10/10 (based on reviews - never heard one) Definitive Technology BP-9080x = $4,000 / pair - Performance = 7.5/10 (based on reviews - never heard one) Magnepan 3.7i = $6,000 / pair - Performance = 9/10 (but also need subwoofers) (based on reviews - never heard one) Klipsch La Scala II = $8,000 / pair - Performance 8/10 (but also need subwoofers) (based on having owned a pair, but rating applies only with a tube power amplifier) Tekton Double Impact SE = $6,500 / pair - Performance = 9/10 (may or may not need subwoofers) (based on reviews - never heard one) Stacked Emotiva T2+ = $2,000 / 2-pairs - Performance = Unknown (but also need subwoofers) (based on speculation - NOBODY's yet heard them) And if we assume that subwoofers ARE going to be needed... Stacked Emotiva T1+ = $1,400 / 2-pairs - Performance = maybe better than T2s when used with subs (based on more speculation...) Actually adding subwoofers costs zero out of pocket since I already have my pair of Airmotiv S-15s. They won't go very high in frequency response, but they WILL go low. Using these (without DSP equalization), a reasonable crossover point is 60-70 Hz.
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Apr 12, 2020 6:46:35 GMT -5
Boom, I have the original def. tech. BP2000’s with built in subs. Great speaker for my ears and room. I ran them as is for many years. About a year and a half ago I added a very nice outlaw sub in my rather large room. I believe I have the cutoff set at 50 hz. A sweet move, worth every penny. Cheers. Thanks, mountain - Valuable information! What kind of bass extension were you getting with the BP-2000's built in powered woofers? ALSO... It's time to consider costs vs. performance ratios: Using list pricing for brand new speaker pairs: Golden Ear Triton Reference R1 = $10,000 / pair - Performance = 10/10 (based on reviews - never heard one) Definitive Technology BP-9080x = $4,000 / pair - Performance = 7.5/10 (based on reviews - never heard one) Magnepan 3.7i = $6,000 / pair - Performance = 9/10 (but also need subwoofers) (based on reviews - never heard one) Klipsch La Scala II = $8,000 / pair - Performance 8/10 (but also need subwoofers) (based on having owned a pair, but rating applies only with a tube power amplifier) Tekton Double Impact SE = $6,500 / pair - Performance = 9/10 (may or may not need subwoofers) (based on reviews - never heard one) Stacked Emotiva T2+ = $2,000 / 2-pairs - Performance = Unknown (but also need subwoofers) (based on speculation - NOBODY's yet heard them) And if we assume that subwoofers ARE going to be needed... Stacked Emotiva T1+ = $1,400 / 2-pairs - Performance = maybe better than T2s when used with subs (based on more speculation...) Actually adding subwoofers costs zero out of pocket since I already have my pair of Airmotiv S-15s. They won't go very high in frequency response, but they WILL go low. Using these (without DSP equalization), a reasonable crossover point is 60-70 Hz. Don't know how low you want to go for music but dirac set the low end at 20hz in my room with the Double Impacts
|
|
|
Post by gsand on Apr 12, 2020 8:35:57 GMT -5
Thanks, mountain - Valuable information! What kind of bass extension were you getting with the BP-2000's built in powered woofers? ALSO... It's time to consider costs vs. performance ratios: Using list pricing for brand new speaker pairs: Golden Ear Triton Reference R1 = $10,000 / pair - Performance = 10/10 (based on reviews - never heard one) Definitive Technology BP-9080x = $4,000 / pair - Performance = 7.5/10 (based on reviews - never heard one) Magnepan 3.7i = $6,000 / pair - Performance = 9/10 (but also need subwoofers) (based on reviews - never heard one) Klipsch La Scala II = $8,000 / pair - Performance 8/10 (but also need subwoofers) (based on having owned a pair, but rating applies only with a tube power amplifier) Tekton Double Impact SE = $6,500 / pair - Performance = 9/10 (may or may not need subwoofers) (based on reviews - never heard one) Stacked Emotiva T2+ = $2,000 / 2-pairs - Performance = Unknown (but also need subwoofers) (based on speculation - NOBODY's yet heard them) And if we assume that subwoofers ARE going to be needed... Stacked Emotiva T1+ = $1,400 / 2-pairs - Performance = maybe better than T2s when used with subs (based on more speculation...) Actually adding subwoofers costs zero out of pocket since I already have my pair of Airmotiv S-15s. They won't go very high in frequency response, but they WILL go low. Using these (without DSP equalization), a reasonable crossover point is 60-70 Hz. Don't know how low you want to go for music but dirac set the low end at 20hz in my room with the Double Impacts The Tekton Double Impact SE are on sale for $4000.00 presently. Eric at Tekton actually recommended the regular DI's with the cap & wire upgrade pkg. for my needs. $3300.00 for the pair + free delv.
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Apr 12, 2020 10:03:49 GMT -5
Don't know how low you want to go for music but dirac set the low end at 20hz in my room with the Double Impacts The Tekton Double Impact SE are on sale for $4000.00 presently. Eric at Tekton actually recommended the regular DI's with the cap & wire upgrade pkg. for my needs. $3300.00 for the pair + free delv. I went with the upgrade pkg as well per Eric's recommendation, not sure if I would've bought the SE at that price, would have been interesting to hear his opinion.
|
|
|
Post by gsand on Apr 12, 2020 12:27:49 GMT -5
deleted
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 14, 2020 15:40:16 GMT -5
The digital volume control in my AURALiC Vega DAC is supposed to be relatively immune to the "truncated word length at lower volumes" phenomenon due to its oversampling functions. The DAC automatically upsamples any incoming signal to the maximum frequency that the DAC can support and THEN attenuates the volume. In theory, this should provide high-quality digital output at virtually any volume level.
But in practice, I think that the DAC sounds better if I run it at a fixed, maximum volume, and perform volume control with a passive, remotely-controlled analog volume pot. The differences between the digital volume control and the analog one are truly minimal; so close that I may be fooling myself. But that's how I hear it as of now.
Boom
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 21, 2020 6:04:20 GMT -5
And the order of sound quality REVERSES itself, depending on the loudspeakers used. With the Magnepan LRS speakers, using a passive volume control sounds better than using the Vega as a digital preamp. But with ATS speakers, Emotiva T2s, or Klipsch RP-600m speakers, the Vega used as a preamp sounds better than the passive volume control. Guess I'll just have to listen every time I change speakers... And I'm beginning to contemplate a "retirement system." What can I live with on a long-term basis? I want several things: Simplicity Deep bass The ability to work in both large and small rooms Relative immunity to room placement Great imaging And the more I think about it, the more the first requirement rules out subwoofers. To have a subwoofer system, one or two additional boxes are needed, additional wires (or wireless transmitters) are needed, an upstream crossover is needed, and lots of experimentation as to room placement is needed. For my existing large living room, the complexity may be justified. But for a future (and more likely much smaller) room, maybe not. The second requirement "deep" bass, is a relative term. I can live with some true low to mid-30 Hz. response, but get close to 40 Hz. and I'm just not going to be happy. If I want that limit without subs, then I'm looking at "full-range" speakers instead of compact ones. The ability to work in both large and small rooms is a tricky one. It's best accomplished with speakers of limited dispersion. This rules out the majority of current speaker models by itself. It also is tentatively at odds with the last requirement "great imaging." With a limited dispersion speaker, you sit on axis if you want imaging... What speakers limit dispersion the most? Horn-loaded speakers. Immunity to room placement is also best accomplished by speakers with limited dispersion. So ultimately, I want a horn-loaded speaker with a low bass response and (preferably) high sensitivity. To get the dispersion narrowed more, a three-way design (using horn midrange and high frequency drivers) will probably work better than a two-way system. Brands that fit this criteria may include JBL (pro series) and Klipsch (Heratige series). There are others, but they slip my mind for the moment. But many of the JBL and Klipsch Heratige series lack the bass response I'm looking for. The JBL pro speakers are (mostly) intended to work with subwoofers, and the Klipsch Heritage models were never intended to go low to start with. The most likely candidate that I see of the two lines is the Klipsch Cornwall IV. It is specified to have a -4 dB point of 34 Hz. and with a touch of EQ, it could probably be solid to 32 Hz. The big boxes would be imposing in a small room, but I've used La Scalas in small rooms before and they worked fine. Further, the Cornwalls would be powered (with room to spare) by my 12-watt Heathkit tube mono blocks. No additional amplifier expense required! All this is paper speculation. I haven't heard the Cornwall IVs and may hate them. But I think they might be worth an audition...
|
|
|
Post by siggie on Apr 21, 2020 9:49:51 GMT -5
And I'm beginning to contemplate a "retirement system." What can I live with on a long-term basis? I'm going to guess "nothing."
siggie
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 21, 2020 10:18:10 GMT -5
Basing all future predictions on past observations precludes the possibility of growth.
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Apr 21, 2020 13:24:41 GMT -5
Boom,I know you have a wide scope of music you enjoy, but please remember that the open low E string of a bass is about 41hz.....
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 21, 2020 13:55:04 GMT -5
Boom,I know you have a wide scope of music you enjoy, but please remember that the open low E string of a bass is about 41hz..... Absolutely true - but I also occasionally enjoy synthesizer and organ music. I can do without the 16 Hz. organ fundamentals, but I want that 32 Hz. doubling. And let's throw one more wish into the retirement system pot - a fully balanced circuitry path from the source to the amps. I'm most of the way there already - The AURALiC Vega DAC/Preamp has balanced outputs, my solid-state Audio-gd preamp is fully balanced (as will be the Vacuum HE-1 preamplifier that they're sending for review), and my Emotiva PA-1 amps, although lacking fully balanced circuitry, do have the noise-cancelling XLR inputs. Might be best to have a balanced tube preamp with the Emotiva PA-1 amps for contemporary speakers AND a balanced solid-state preamp and tube power amp for horn speakers? That offers the flexibility to go fully solid state, fully tube, or mix and match.
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Apr 21, 2020 15:21:46 GMT -5
That's the basic structure of my system, except I have the PBN speakers (92 db efficient) instead of horns.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 22, 2020 16:00:34 GMT -5
Maybe Tekton Double Impacts? - $3,500 / pair Maybe Crites Cornscalas? - $1,737 plus shipping I can't think of anything else that might meet the criteria for less than the $6,000 / pair price of the Klipsch Cornwalls.
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on Apr 22, 2020 16:34:41 GMT -5
Boom,I know you have a wide scope of music you enjoy, but please remember that the open low E string of a bass is about 41hz..... Absolutely true - but I also occasionally enjoy synthesizer and organ music. I can do without the 16 Hz. organ fundamentals, but I want that 32 Hz. doubling. And let's throw one more wish into the retirement system pot - a fully balanced circuitry path from the source to the amps. I'm most of the way there already - The AURALiC Vega DAC/Preamp has balanced outputs, my solid-state Audio-gd preamp is fully balanced (as will be the Vacuum HE-1 preamplifier that they're sending for review), and my Emotiva PA-1 amps, although lacking fully balanced circuitry, do have the noise-cancelling XLR inputs. Your PA-1 amps are fully balanced amps. You currently have a fully balanced chain.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 23, 2020 10:05:52 GMT -5
Tekton double impacts are out. They don't do much below 40 Hz. from what I see on internet frequency response curves. Remaining options: Crites Cornscala & Klipsch Cornwall
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Apr 23, 2020 10:26:21 GMT -5
And although my AURALiC Lightning DS streamer software is adequate for playback, it lacks the stability and user friendliness of Roon. So, I'd like to move toward building a ROCK platform to control playback. Any suggestions as to the best platform to use?
|
|