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Post by codyjenkins on Jul 5, 2020 20:19:48 GMT -5
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 5, 2020 21:14:54 GMT -5
But isn’t the rubber sheet for “vibration elimination” allowing “micro-movements” too? Not of the same type you get with hook and loop...hook and loop will have about zero damping. The rubber-like sheet will damp most vibrations. Think of hook and loop as more of an energy transmitter and compressible rubber-like materials being an energy dissipator. That's simplistic, but...and effective mental model. So, if the outer surfaces of the speaker enclosures are vibrating (and...they will), the vibrations of one will pass to the other with hook and loop. Honestly, this could actually related to your wolf-sound thing from the other thread for when you were using rollers/casters....you might be hearing vibrations between the casters and the hard floor. Mark
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 5, 2020 21:37:09 GMT -5
But isn’t the rubber sheet for “vibration elimination” allowing “micro-movements” too? Not of the same type you get with hook and loop...hook and loop will have about zero damping. The rubber-like sheet will damp most vibrations. Think of hook and loop as more of an energy transmitter and compressible rubber-like materials being an energy dissipator. That's simplistic, but...and effective mental model. So, if the outer surfaces of the speaker enclosures are vibrating (and...they will), the vibrations of one will pass to the other with hook and loop. Honestly, this could actually related to your wolf-sound thing from the other thread for when you were using rollers/casters....you might be hearing vibrations between the casters and the hard floor. Mark Thanks for the transmitter / dissipator analogy - it helps. One more question - were I to use, for example a sheet of sorbothane with adhesives on both sides, would the use of the adhesives affect the sorbothane sheet's dissipative properties? I'm VERY certain that I hear vibrations from the casters with the subwoofer. It's possible that the speaker casters were vibrating also, but probably less because the speaker casters had softer rubber wheels - the subs have hard plastic ones. And despite the fact that my floors are laid directly on the concrete house slab, the slab was never quite level itself.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Jul 6, 2020 5:20:57 GMT -5
Not of the same type you get with hook and loop...hook and loop will have about zero damping. The rubber-like sheet will damp most vibrations. Think of hook and loop as more of an energy transmitter and compressible rubber-like materials being an energy dissipator. That's simplistic, but...and effective mental model. So, if the outer surfaces of the speaker enclosures are vibrating (and...they will), the vibrations of one will pass to the other with hook and loop. Honestly, this could actually related to your wolf-sound thing from the other thread for when you were using rollers/casters....you might be hearing vibrations between the casters and the hard floor. Mark Thanks for the transmitter / dissipator analogy - it helps. One more question - were I to use, for example a sheet of sorbothane with adhesives on both sides, would the use of the adhesives affect the sorbothane sheet's dissipative properties? I'm VERY certain that I hear vibrations from the casters with the subwoofer. It's possible that the speaker casters were vibrating also, but probably less because the speaker casters had softer rubber wheels - the subs have hard plastic ones. And despite the fact that my floors are laid directly on the concrete house slab, the slab was never quite level itself. Adhesives should not interfere if they are a soft/gummy adhesive like typical double-sided tape. Mark
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Post by foggy1956 on Jul 6, 2020 7:29:08 GMT -5
Not of the same type you get with hook and loop...hook and loop will have about zero damping. The rubber-like sheet will damp most vibrations. Think of hook and loop as more of an energy transmitter and compressible rubber-like materials being an energy dissipator. That's simplistic, but...and effective mental model. So, if the outer surfaces of the speaker enclosures are vibrating (and...they will), the vibrations of one will pass to the other with hook and loop. Honestly, this could actually related to your wolf-sound thing from the other thread for when you were using rollers/casters....you might be hearing vibrations between the casters and the hard floor. Mark Thanks for the transmitter / dissipator analogy - it helps. One more question - were I to use, for example a sheet of sorbothane with adhesives on both sides, would the use of the adhesives affect the sorbothane sheet's dissipative properties? I'm VERY certain that I hear vibrations from the casters with the subwoofer. It's possible that the speaker casters were vibrating also, but probably less because the speaker casters had softer rubber wheels - the subs have hard plastic ones. And despite the fact that my floors are laid directly on the concrete house slab, the slab was never quite level itself. Won't adhesive affect the finish?
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 6, 2020 9:44:08 GMT -5
Audio porn from Russell's place: Quicksilver (?) tube amps on custom stands: Dynaco MK IV amps (?) on custom stands: Thiel CS-3.0 speakers on custom stands with stacked Dahlquist DQ-10s in the back - Note the air-filter "sound-absorber" on the wall:
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 6, 2020 9:48:29 GMT -5
Won't adhesive affect the finish? If the finish were real wood, yes, it might. But most speakers these days are vinyl-wrap. Adhesive peels off of vinyl wrap cleanly. Only once have I had any residue, and a paper towel with a few drops of lighter fluid cleaned that off perfectly.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 13, 2020 7:53:26 GMT -5
Yesterday, at the urging of an audio amigo, I replaced the hard rubber feet on my Emotiva T2 speakers with some threaded spikes (that fit into hard "cups" to protect the wood floor). I was told to expect much tighter bass and greater image focus. In fact, I was also told that having the speakers anchored with spikes would also provide significantly more bass as well. So how'd that all work out?
The predicted benefits were conspicuous only in their absence. The bass was NOT tighter, there was NOT any more bass, and the imaging did NOT improve. And to be fair, I used a bubble level on the speakers during setup to make sure that the speakers were both level and without wobble. But I did notice that, unlike the rubber feet, the spike cups (having both a smaller footprint than the rubber feet AND a much harder material of construction) were FAR more likely to slide on the wood floor. This leads to the question of whether the spikes ACTUALLY do any better job of "anchoring" the speakers (at least, when used with the spike cups).
My conclusion is that the spikes MIGHT have benefit if installed on carpet, and pierce all the way through the carpet and underlay to the foundation concrete, but used on hard floors with cups, the spikes seem to just be a whole lot of work (and a far greater chance of damaging your floors) for absolutely no benefit at all. So, long story short, I'm going back to rubber feet today. AMF spikes!
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Post by megash0n on Jul 13, 2020 8:09:49 GMT -5
Yesterday, at the urging of an audio amigo, I replaced the hard rubber feet on my Emotiva T2 speakers with some threaded spikes (that fit into hard "cups" to protect the wood floor). I was told to expect much tighter bass and greater image focus. In fact, I was also told that having the speakers anchored with spikes would also provide significantly more bass as well. So how'd that all work out? The predicted benefits were conspicuous only in their absence. The bass was NOT tighter, there was NOT any more bass, and the imaging did NOT improve. And to be fair, I used a bubble level on the speakers during setup to make sure that the speakers were both level and without wobble. But I did notice that, unlike the rubber feet, the spike cups (having both a smaller footprint than the rubber feet AND a much harder material of construction) were FAR more likely to slide on the wood floor. This leads to the question of whether the spikes ACTUALLY do any better job of "anchoring" the speakers (at least, when used with the spike cups). My conclusion is that the spikes MIGHT have benefit if installed on carpet, and pierce all the way through the carpet and underlay to the foundation concrete, but used on hard floors with cups, the spikes seem to just be a whole lot of work (and a far greater chance of damaging your floors) for absolutely no benefit at all. So, long story short, I'm going back to rubber feet today. AMF spikes! isn't the goal to "decouple" the speakers from the floor or subfloor? I'm not following this thread very closely, so I apologize if I'm missing something or being repetitive. One concept to consider is placing the speaker on a box if you will... Filled with sand. The top of the box, the portion your speaker sits on, floats on the bed of sand. You would still use the rubber feet, and maybe some rubber to keep the top piece from touching the other sides of the box. I've seen many builds where people build the entire front stage like this. It serves the purpose of decoupling and is a bass trap of sorts.
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Post by tchaik on Jul 13, 2020 8:46:05 GMT -5
Yesterday, at the urging of an audio amigo, I replaced the hard rubber feet on my Emotiva T2 speakers with some threaded spikes (that fit into hard "cups" to protect the wood floor). I was told to expect much tighter bass and greater image focus. In fact, I was also told that having the speakers anchored with spikes would also provide significantly more bass as well. So how'd that all work out? The predicted benefits were conspicuous only in their absence. The bass was NOT tighter, there was NOT any more bass, and the imaging did NOT improve. And to be fair, I used a bubble level on the speakers during setup to make sure that the speakers were both level and without wobble. But I did notice that, unlike the rubber feet, the spike cups (having both a smaller footprint than the rubber feet AND a much harder material of construction) were FAR more likely to slide on the wood floor. This leads to the question of whether the spikes ACTUALLY do any better job of "anchoring" the speakers (at least, when used with the spike cups). My conclusion is that the spikes MIGHT have benefit if installed on carpet, and pierce all the way through the carpet and underlay to the foundation concrete, but used on hard floors with cups, the spikes seem to just be a whole lot of work (and a far greater chance of damaging your floors) for absolutely no benefit at all. So, long story short, I'm going back to rubber feet today. AMF spikes! among the golden-eared it is an article of faith that spikes do all that you ventured to find out if true. your conclusions may cause the faithful to break down your doors and system for your heresy.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 13, 2020 9:03:48 GMT -5
among the golden-eared it is an article of faith that spikes do all that you ventured to find out if true. your conclusions may cause the faithful to break down your doors and system for your heresy. Nothing I'm not used to... As to Mr. DYohn's question, it is my experience, in my room, and to my ears, that often loudspeakers originally designed for floor-standing placement deliver better imaging if slightly elevated. This may be because I'm relatively tall, and need slightly higher speaker placement for the speaker designer's intended vertical dispersion to work? But this is speculation. What ISN'T speculation is that I've heard improvements in multiple "tower" speakers with slight elevation in my room. That's why I'm looking for a micro-adjustable stand - so I can tune the speaker to the space.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 13, 2020 9:10:14 GMT -5
Hi @megashon -
There are two schools of thought on speaker coupling. One is that the speakers should be as decoupled as possible, the other that the speakers should be anchored as firmly as possible. Per Sir Isaac Newton's third law, for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore if your woofer springs forward into the room trying to "push air" toward the listener, the speaker cabinet has an equal and opposite thrust in the opposite direction. The (theoretical) goal of spikes is to prevent the cabinet from moving so that ALL the energy developed by the woofer is thrust into the room. This is supposed to tighten bass by preventing cabinet movement from blurring the details in the bass. The theoretical goal of decoupling, I'm not too sure about.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 13, 2020 9:17:54 GMT -5
among the golden-eared it is an article of faith that spikes do all that you ventured to find out if true. your conclusions may cause the faithful to break down your doors and system for your heresy. Nothing I'm not used to... As to Mr. DYohn's question, it is my experience, in my room, and to my ears, that often loudspeakers originally designed for floor-standing placement deliver better imaging if slightly elevated. This may be because I'm relatively tall, and need slightly higher speaker placement for the speaker designer's intended vertical dispersion to work? But this is speculation. What ISN'T speculation is that I've heard improvements in multiple "tower" speakers with slight elevation in my room. That's why I'm looking for a micro-adjustable stand - so I can tune the speaker to the space. I think this is on the wrong thread, but the answer to your comment is if the speakers you use have such a small sweet spot that "micro adjustment" of height is "necessary," then I propose you are either using the speakers that probably sound bad or you are hearing things that no one else can hear. The dispersion pattern of most tweeters is at least 20 degrees (most of them more than that) both vertically and horizontally, and if you are more than a meter away from them then such precise adjustments are moot.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 13, 2020 9:22:04 GMT -5
In theory, you're right. In practice, I've heard clearly differences from as little as two or three inches of vertical height change. And the dispersion of the tweeter may not matter - it's the interference pattern of the drivers.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 13, 2020 9:57:55 GMT -5
There seems to be some confusion about exactly what the goal should be...
The generally accepted goal of spikes is to couple the speaker very solidly to the floor. They are supposed to pierce the carpet, and rest directly on a cement floor underneath, or even penetrate slightly into a rough wooden floor.
One idea is that they prevent the box from vibrating, thus giving the drivers a firmer foundation for their relative motion. Another idea is that, by coupling the box to the floor, they intentionally couple the vibrations in the box to the floor, like a sounding board. Yet another idea, favored by some audiophiles, seems to be that the spikes somehow
"couple the vibrations into the floor - which then somehow carries them away and dissipates them" (presumably in contrast to having them bounce endlessly around inside the speaker - sort of like some sort of "mechanical ground"). You will sometimes see fancy feet claimed to act as diodes... "providing a one-way path for vibrations away from the speaker".
And, in practical terms, if the speakers are tall and narrow, they provide solid support, which makes the speakers less likely to tip.
I've never heard them make a significant improvement in sound either.... Although I suppose that, if the speaker box was very light, coupling it to the floor could be beneficial. (But making the box out of heavier and stronger material would seem like a better solution.)
(The idea of providing ISOLATION is generally reserved for platforms and such intended for subwoofers... and keeping the neighbors happy.)
Yesterday, at the urging of an audio amigo, I replaced the hard rubber feet on my Emotiva T2 speakers with some threaded spikes (that fit into hard "cups" to protect the wood floor). I was told to expect much tighter bass and greater image focus. In fact, I was also told that having the speakers anchored with spikes would also provide significantly more bass as well. So how'd that all work out? The predicted benefits were conspicuous only in their absence. The bass was NOT tighter, there was NOT any more bass, and the imaging did NOT improve. And to be fair, I used a bubble level on the speakers during setup to make sure that the speakers were both level and without wobble. But I did notice that, unlike the rubber feet, the spike cups (having both a smaller footprint than the rubber feet AND a much harder material of construction) were FAR more likely to slide on the wood floor. This leads to the question of whether the spikes ACTUALLY do any better job of "anchoring" the speakers (at least, when used with the spike cups). My conclusion is that the spikes MIGHT have benefit if installed on carpet, and pierce all the way through the carpet and underlay to the foundation concrete, but used on hard floors with cups, the spikes seem to just be a whole lot of work (and a far greater chance of damaging your floors) for absolutely no benefit at all. So, long story short, I'm going back to rubber feet today. AMF spikes! isn't the goal to "decouple" the speakers from the floor or subfloor? I'm not following this thread very closely, so I apologize if I'm missing something or being repetitive. One concept to consider is placing the speaker on a box if you will... Filled with sand. The top of the box, the portion your speaker sits on, floats on the bed of sand. You would still use the rubber feet, and maybe some rubber to keep the top piece from touching the other sides of the box. I've seen many builds where people build the entire front stage like this. It serves the purpose of decoupling and is a bass trap of sorts.
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Post by foggy1956 on Jul 13, 2020 10:22:39 GMT -5
In theory, you're right. In practice, I've heard clearly differences from as little as two or three inches of vertical height change. And the dispersion of the tweeter may not matter - it's the interference pattern of the drivers. Did you ever run a REW sweep to establish a baseline prior to engaging these anti gravity boots you're searching for?
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Jul 13, 2020 10:37:17 GMT -5
In theory, you're right. In practice, I've heard clearly differences from as little as two or three inches of vertical height change. And the dispersion of the tweeter may not matter - it's the interference pattern of the drivers. OK, Don Quixote, you keep tilting. Whatever floats your boat.
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Post by tchaik on Jul 13, 2020 11:23:41 GMT -5
among the golden-eared it is an article of faith that spikes do all that you ventured to find out if true. your conclusions may cause the faithful to break down your doors and system for your heresy. Nothing I'm not used to... As to Mr. DYohn's question, it is my experience, in my room, and to my ears, that often loudspeakers originally designed for floor-standing placement deliver better imaging if slightly elevated. This may be because I'm relatively tall, and need slightly higher speaker placement for the speaker designer's intended vertical dispersion to work? But this is speculation. What ISN'T speculation is that I've heard improvements in multiple "tower" speakers with slight elevation in my room. That's why I'm looking for a micro-adjustable stand - so I can tune the speaker to the space. I used books on chair to elevate my ear height. some positions lock in real well although terribly uncomfortable.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 13, 2020 14:09:59 GMT -5
Did you ever run a REW sweep to establish a baseline prior to engaging these anti gravity boots you're searching for? I'll REW the system as-is with the spikes prior to reverting to rubber feet tomorrow. Based on what I'm hearing, I wouldn't expect much difference between the spikes and the softer feet.
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Post by foggy1956 on Jul 13, 2020 14:40:25 GMT -5
Did you ever run a REW sweep to establish a baseline prior to engaging these anti gravity boots you're searching for? I'll REW the system as-is with the spikes prior to reverting to rubber feet tomorrow. Based on what I'm hearing, I wouldn't expect much difference between the spikes and the softer feet. I'm more interested in your comment that the speakers were playing into the low 30hz range
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