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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 29, 2020 16:28:19 GMT -5
For the price, they’d BETTER sound good!
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 3, 2020 4:34:58 GMT -5
My audio amigo loaned me a pair of KEF iQ10 speakers with tall stands so I could check them out in my room. First impressions: - The KEFs sound significantly brighter than my Emotiva T2 speakers. From what I've read, this is typical of the KEF Q series speakers, so no surprise there. Maybe when my Schiit Loki equalizer arrives this morning, I'll be able to tame the treble a bit? Time will tell...
- Imaging is, as would be expected from a point-source-radiator, exceptional. Within the limits of my room, these image like champs.
- The Dahlquist DQ-LP1 crossover is set to roll off the KEFs at 70 Hz. (at a rate of 6dB per octave) and to roll in the two Emotiva Airmotiv S15 subs at the same frequency (at a rate of 18dB per octave). This doesn't work for two reasons - first, the KEFs are already a bit down in their response by 70 Hz. and the crossover isn't helping them there and second, the S15 subs just don't go up to 70 Hz. gracefully. I've tried bypassing the crossover for the subs, and although it helps slightly, these are HT subs and aren't making up enough for a smooth blend. Today, I'll try getting the crossover out of the signal path for the KEFs and see how the blend works then.
Another thing that I might try is to put the KEFs on shorter stands. Being closer to the floor might improve their bass response. So ultimately, in spite of their imaging capabilities, the KEF iQ-10 speakers probably aren't for my room. The KEF R series is supposed to both be smoother in the treble and to go lower in the bass. The Reference series is also supposed to do those things. But at those prices, I might just be better off with a tower speaker that has its own bass capabilities (Tekton Double Impact?). But the KEF imaging will be hard to walk away from.
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Post by audiobill on Aug 3, 2020 5:15:28 GMT -5
Extended highs are emphasized by metallic tweeters.
But, with most us favoring a downward sloping target curve for in-room response, what's the point?
Flat measured response that needs to be equalized or dampened?
Soft domes for me!
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 3, 2020 18:07:17 GMT -5
OK - KEFs round two -
I got the crossover sorted & now there is not dip between the KEFs and the subs.
I put the KEFs on lower stands, and now they have kept their excellent imaging, but lost their treble edge.
I put my Schiit Loki into the system and added a click of lower midrange and now voices sound FAR more natural.
In short, the little KEFs are contenders for my dual Emotiva T2 rig in every way. Who would have thought?
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 4, 2020 5:16:00 GMT -5
Today I plan to listen to the KEFs in near-field mode to see if they're suitable for use in smaller rooms. The "metal tweeter edge" will be dealt with in two ways:
1. By substituting a tube power amplifier for the SS unit I've been running, some relief may be achieved 2. If the treble edge remains, I'll use the Schiit Loki to further tame the treble
And the Loki, by the way, I am finding to be totally transparent when bypassed, and to also have virtually no degradation on the audio even when in use. I've not been satisfied with some of my previous Schiit purchases, but the Loki is definitely a happy exception. Bravo Schiit!
If I must criticize the Loki, and I must, the pilot LED is too bright and disturbs my better half when she's trying to watch TV. I still have some adhesive filters, and will apply one today to drop the LED intensity by half.
I'm running the Dahlquist DQ-LP1 phase-coherent crossover with the KEFs and it seems to bring out the very best in the Airmotiv S15 subs. I think that the 18dB / octave roll-off on the subwoofers prevents the worst of the subs from interfering with the music. In fact, when I try the KEFs in near-field mode, I'm also thinking of rolling the S15s over to the listening couch and trying them in near-field mode also. I suspect that I'll have to add the Dayton DSP-LF units to the subs again to flatten their response, but after doing so, maybe the subs will be clean enough to use without the need to replace them. I need a flat 30 to 70 Hz. response from the subs, and although they will happily run flat on the LF end down to 20Hz. getting the subs to perform above about 50Hz. without massive distortion, peaks, and dips will be an uphill battle. These were intended as HT subs - not music ones, and their shortcomings become woefully apparent if you want HF extension from them.
Nevertheless, if the Daytons can smooth the subs just enough, I'll keep them rather than replacing them at further expense. I sure hope the Daytons can upgrade the S15s enough for me to be satisfied with them!
But some additional expense will still be required. Due to the nature of my room, I'll eventually need some Emotiva wireless transmitters & receivers to avoid tripping hazards from power cords and wires. I can dress the power cords without problem, but the signal wires will need to either run across the room or else be eliminated. The latter is probably the best option, and also does away with hum, since the subs will be plugged into a different outlet than the source system. So the layout will be - crossover output to the Emotiva wireless transmitter - Emotiva wireless receiver to the Dayton DSP module - DSP module to the sub. I plan to Velcro both the Emotiva receiver and the Dayton DSP unit to the back of the subs.
If all this near-field stuff works, I may again post some measurements.
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Post by garbulky on Aug 4, 2020 9:23:35 GMT -5
You may be over-analyzing the bass problem to your subs while missing the larger problem. Your bass integration woes may be due to room issues, not sub issues. If you have uneven room peaks and nulls in that region, having a nice even response in subwoofers is not going to help. Your airmotivs have a 4 d swing withing the 70-90 hz and stays between +/-2.5 db throughout this range. Which is only slgihtly audible. Much more audible is the 10-20db peaks and dips in your room. Fix that, and you have it. Otherwise, it will stay there through your other attempts to fix it in different ways. Closer, but never quite there. In your room frequency response, on the left it goes from high 10 db peak at 70hz to a swinging -10 db dip at 80hz. Then rises back up to a -3 db at 90hz and then down to -18 db swinging dip at 120 hz. The mild gradual downward slope on the airmotivs at those frequencies have little effect compared to those kind of sharp swings.
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 4, 2020 13:02:31 GMT -5
As my system grows more complex, I'm needing to do some hum reduction. Obviously, avoiding proximity to transformers with analog signal cables, using XLR connectors wherever feasible, and keeping interconnects as short as possible are the "textbook cures" for hum. But I need more. Does anyone make a double-shielded, single-ended interconnect? I'd imagine the signal wires, wrapped in a grounding sleeve (connected at both ends) and then a secondary grounding sleeve (connected at but one end)? But this is speculation on my part. Does anyone know of "hum proof interconnects?" And where could I get some?
Thanks - Boomzilla
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klinemj
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Posts: 14,744
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Post by klinemj on Aug 4, 2020 13:54:00 GMT -5
As my system grows more complex, I'm needing to do some hum reduction. Obviously, avoiding proximity to transformers with analog signal cables, using XLR connectors wherever feasible, and keeping interconnects as short as possible are the "textbook cures" for hum. But I need more. Does anyone make a double-shielded, single-ended interconnect? I'd imagine the signal wires, wrapped in a grounding sleeve (connected at both ends) and then a secondary grounding sleeve (connected at but one end)? But this is speculation on my part. Does anyone know of "hum proof interconnects?" And where could I get some? Thanks - Boomzilla Generally, I have found that when I plug interconnects in, I shouldn't hum. If you want proof of humming, hum along. (But seriously...I've not have any issues with hum on an interconnect since I had a TT grounding issue many years ago) Mark
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novisnick
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Post by novisnick on Aug 4, 2020 15:04:54 GMT -5
As my system grows more complex, I'm needing to do some hum reduction. Obviously, avoiding proximity to transformers with analog signal cables, using XLR connectors wherever feasible, and keeping interconnects as short as possible are the "textbook cures" for hum. But I need more. Does anyone make a double-shielded, single-ended interconnect? I'd imagine the signal wires, wrapped in a grounding sleeve (connected at both ends) and then a secondary grounding sleeve (connected at but one end)? But this is speculation on my part. Does anyone know of "hum proof interconnects?" And where could I get some? Thanks - Boomzilla Generally, I have found that when I plug interconnects in, I shouldn't hum. If you want proof of humming, hum along. (But seriously...I've not have any issues with hum on an interconnect since I had a TT grounding issue many years ago) Mark Doesn’t that hum along belong in the “ear worm” thread? 🤔😁
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Post by audiobill on Aug 4, 2020 16:11:04 GMT -5
You may be over-analyzing the bass problem to your subs while missing the larger problem. Your bass integration woes may be due to room issues, not sub issues. If you have uneven room peaks and nulls in that region, having a nice even response in subwoofers is not going to help. Your airmotivs have a 4 d swing withing the 70-90 hz and stays between +/-2.5 db throughout this range. Which is only slgihtly audible. Much more audible is the 10-20db peaks and dips in your room. Fix that, and you have it. Otherwise, it will stay there through your other attempts to fix it in different ways. Closer, but never quite there. In your room frequency response, on the left it goes from high 10 db peak at 70hz to a swinging -10 db dip at 80hz. Then rises back up to a -3 db at 90hz and then down to -18 db swinging dip at 120 hz. The mild gradual downward slope on the airmotivs at those frequencies have little effect compared to those kind of sharp swings. Gar, where is this REW graph from?
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Post by garbulky on Aug 4, 2020 16:27:56 GMT -5
audiobill it was from one of his T2 measurement threads I forgot which one but it wasn't part 3
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Post by foggy1956 on Aug 4, 2020 16:28:41 GMT -5
You may be over-analyzing the bass problem to your subs while missing the larger problem. Your bass integration woes may be due to room issues, not sub issues. If you have uneven room peaks and nulls in that region, having a nice even response in subwoofers is not going to help. Your airmotivs have a 4 d swing withing the 70-90 hz and stays between +/-2.5 db throughout this range. Which is only slgihtly audible. Much more audible is the 10-20db peaks and dips in your room. Fix that, and you have it. Otherwise, it will stay there through your other attempts to fix it in different ways. Closer, but never quite there. In your room frequency response, on the left it goes from high 10 db peak at 70hz to a swinging -10 db dip at 80hz. Then rises back up to a -3 db at 90hz and then down to -18 db swinging dip at 120 hz. The mild gradual downward slope on the airmotivs at those frequencies have little effect compared to those kind of sharp swings. Gar, where is this REW graph from? Another anechoic sweep😂
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Post by garbulky on Aug 4, 2020 16:40:21 GMT -5
I have no idea if the top one is or isn't. That's Emotivas...
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Post by audiobill on Aug 4, 2020 17:15:54 GMT -5
Please send me the .mdt REW files, I can design good filters for Boom. @ Boomzilla
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 5, 2020 5:16:25 GMT -5
Hi audiobill - Thank you most kindly! Do you want the subwoofer curves only (where the need for filters is greatest)? I'm hesitant to give you the files for the main speakers because as of right now, they're changing so frequently. At this moment, I have in house: 2 pairs of Emotiva T2 speakers 1 pair of KEF iQ10 speakers 1 pair of B&W DM-630 speakers and arriving soon are a pair of Alta Audio Alec speakers for review. Thanks again - Glenn PS: For the subs, do you want the raw curves or the curves after correction by the Dayton DSP-LF?
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Post by audiobill on Aug 5, 2020 5:31:18 GMT -5
Glenn, send me both for starters to my email.
BTW, Gar's advice regarding filling narrow dips is not consistent with best practice - Your ear doesn't hear them and it loads an amp a lot to fill them.
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Post by garbulky on Aug 5, 2020 11:58:08 GMT -5
Glenn, send me both for starters to my email. BTW, Gar's advice regarding filling narrow dips is not consistent with best practice - Your ear doesn't hear them and it loads an amp a lot to fill them. I am not reccomending he fills narrow dips with eq if that's what you are saying. Not saying he can't, but I didn't advice that.
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 5, 2020 14:56:21 GMT -5
Spending the day rewiring and making sure that all the gear is hum-free. Haven't tested the B&W speakers yet - maybe this evening...
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klinemj
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Posts: 14,744
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Post by klinemj on Aug 5, 2020 15:40:56 GMT -5
Spending the day rewiring and making sure that all the gear is hum-free. Haven't tested the B&W speakers yet - maybe this evening... I am fairly certain you spend more time taking your system apart and re-doing it than I do listening. How many hours are there in a day down there in Cajun Country? Mark
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Post by Boomzilla on Aug 5, 2020 17:01:57 GMT -5
Never enough...
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