KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 8, 2024 10:07:18 GMT -5
You can check out my much longer post about Windows. Win2k (aka "Windows 2000") is REALLY old... a lot has changed since then... and I'm afraid that most modern software won't run on it (or won't run properly). You also aren't going to find Windows 2000 drivers for ANY modern hardware. You could try... and you might luck out... but I doubt it. The current Windows version would be Windows 10 or Windows 11. (You can pretty well install Windows 10 on most hardware; Windows 11 is picky and won't install on most older hardware.) It's also worth noting that any computer that CAME with Windows 2000 is REALLY old hardware. Windows 10 will actually install, and run, on almost anything, but most programs are going to want more processor power and more memory. (So it probably wouldn't be worth paying to upgrade hardware that old to Windows 10.) only hangup I see is if ROON / Dragonfly require newest version of windows. I've got a bit of SW for my laptop but require I upgrade my Win2k with SP4....... What IS latest version?
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 8, 2024 10:17:43 GMT -5
On the down-side you can add that the Celeron N4000 is a pretty wimpy processor... But, on the up-side, you're getting Windows 11, and it can RUN Windows 11, and it looks like a pretty recent model. And the price was definitely right. It should do fine since you're not asking it to do any fancy gaming graphics. An audio amigo commented on the great price I got on my NUC. There are reasons: The NUC is "refurbished," but DOES have a warranty. No keyboard or monitor were included. Had it lacked the warranty, I wouldn't have bought it. I think that the computer comes with a power supply, but even if it doesn't I've got a closet full of 12VDC power supplies of very high amperage capacities. When on the equipment rack, the NUC can feed the Samsung 65" TV via HDMI. I have a Bluetooth keyboard / trackball combo that I can use from my recliner. I ordered three (3) AC power strips and ten (10) one-foot-long IEC power cables. I'll screw one of the 36-inch-long power strips under each of the equipment rack shelves. Then a one-foot IEC cable should then suffice to reach every component, neatening up the wire clutter significantly. If I then route the interconnects on the top surface of the shelves (power cables will be on the bottom), I can arrange 90-degree crossings for every interconnect / power-cable pair reducing the potential for hum.
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Post by leonski on May 8, 2024 13:09:21 GMT -5
You could write a similar post dealing with apple OS. My original 2009 Imac came with 10.5 and I paid for 10.6 Was that a 3-install disc? I gave one to my nephew who bought a macbook sometime around than....
I don't remember (like who COULD?) all the ins and outs but my '09 won't take past a certain level and my more recent one is also peaked out at OS13.6 or some such.
Apple changed from INTEL to some other CPU.....this after going TO Intel from Motorola a long time ago..... APPLE Branded CPU is not the norm......but no specifics as to who the chip foundry is or ANY detail.....
I lost a LOT of $$$ software when they 'decided' I could no longer run 32 bit code. My copy of PHOTOSHOP (in the hundreds) and my Microshaft Office both became just so many dead bits on my drives...... One version of the OS Would run 32 / 64 but for example? I had to DELETE than reinstall Photoshop to get it to work...
The whole thing is a parasitic Money Grab and counts on the 'Churn' to generate new business.....
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 8, 2024 16:15:34 GMT -5
From Amazon Prime, I ordered an Intel NUC: Windows 11 6GB RAM 128GB SSD (I have 500GB, 1TB, 2TB, & 3TB SSDs in my parts bin if needed) Celeron N4000 CPU 12VDC power supply 2 HDMI ports 2 Rear USB-A ports, 2 Front USB-A ports 1 Gigabit Ethernet port 1 Analog Headphone Jack with Optical TOSLINK in bottom of jack TOTAL COST (after shipping) = $99 Nice little NUC. I almost bought a low cost one like you got, but there were a lot of reviews on that specific one I was considering that were pretty damning. And, from the description, I had some questions that the company took too long to answer. So, I pulled the plug on another. It's only use it as a Roon Core and for when I run Dirac. Occasionally, I do surf the web on it. I've got it running into my XMC-2 and set up an input so the mini-PC can display on my TV. I don't have a HD other than what's built in, and all my music is on a hard drive connected to my office PC but shared with my network. So, I don't really need a big HD for the mini-PC. Also, mine came with a bracket that is intended to mount the NUC on the back of a monitor, but I screwed it onto the wall by my HT gear. That keeps it out of my rack and out of the way. I look forward to seeing how your works out. Mark
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Post by Boomzilla on May 8, 2024 16:39:35 GMT -5
Thanks, Mark - I don't need any significant longevity from this NUC - It has two (and only two) purposes for me:
1. Act as a Roon endpoint until my Nucleus arrives next month and
2. Act as a DSP renderer for a subwoofer I'm about to review.
When those two chores are completed, I'll unplug the NUC, put it on a shelf, and never, ever think about the vile little Windows thing again unless (sometime in the future that I hope never comes) I need to run another &^%&$%#$%^()&*_+ Windows program.
Finis.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 8, 2024 16:39:58 GMT -5
Things in the real world move rather quickly these days... and even faster in the computer world. Apple was very proud of their Motorola PowerPC chips... and continually touted them as being better than Intel... Until Motorola stopped making them... Then they suddenly decided that they really liked Intel after all... Microsoft generally comes out with a new version of Windows about every three years... And they support each version for about five years... (sometimes more)... Also, strictly speaking, they don't FORCE you to upgrade...
You should still be able to run Windows 2000 on the computer it came installed on...
And you should still be able to run the same old copies of Office and Photoshop on Windows 2000 that you used to...
(They're really old, and you won't be getting security updates, but you could still run them offline and they should work fine.) (That's back in "the good old days" when everything used serial numbers and you didn't need to worry about online activation.)
Microsoft is also pretty good about free Windows updates... If you were paying attention you would have had the option to upgrade anything running Windows 7 or later all the way up to Windows 10 for free. The upgrade option still worked for literally years after it was officially discontinued... they WANT you to upgrade. And now you can go from Windows 10 to Windows 11 if you meet the hardware requirements. Also note that you usually don't pay much of anything for Windows. A full license, which be used to update a computer, or can be moved to a different computer, usually costs $100 - $200 or so. However, when you buy a new computer, you're usually only paying $10 - $20 to get Windows on it. Also, just FYI, Windows changes a LOT from version to version... So it's not unreasonable for software vendors to expect you to pay for an upgrade to a new version. (And, incidentally, PhotoShop is now a monthly subscription... but your really old copy will probably still work on a relatively new computer.) Also FYI... You cannot run a 64 bit copy of Windows on 32 bit hardware... But you CAN run a 32 bit copy of Windows on 64 bit hardware... And SOME older programs will run on newer versions of Windows in various "compatibility modes"... And old 32 bit software will run on a 32 bit copy of Windows regardless of the hardware underneath. (So you can install a 32 bit copy of Windows on a 64 bit computer so you can run your old 32 bit programs.) You could write a similar post dealing with apple OS. My original 2009 Imac came with 10.5 and I paid for 10.6 Was that a 3-install disc? I gave one to my nephew who bought a macbook sometime around than.... I don't remember (like who COULD?) all the ins and outs but my '09 won't take past a certain level and my more recent one is also peaked out at OS13.6 or some such. Apple changed from INTEL to some other CPU.....this after going TO Intel from Motorola a long time ago..... APPLE Branded CPU is not the norm......but no specifics as to who the chip foundry is or ANY detail..... I lost a LOT of $$$ software when they 'decided' I could no longer run 32 bit code. My copy of PHOTOSHOP (in the hundreds) and my Microshaft Office both became just so many dead bits on my drives...... One version of the OS Would run 32 / 64 but for example? I had to DELETE than reinstall Photoshop to get it to work... The whole thing is a parasitic Money Grab and counts on the 'Churn' to generate new business.....
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Post by Boomzilla on May 8, 2024 16:59:49 GMT -5
...Microsoft is also pretty good about free Windows updates...Also note that you usually don't pay much of anything for Windows... What you say is true KeithL, BUT... There's no such thing as "free Windows." When I first became an independent consultant, I got a PC laptop with Windows because the (highly specialized) software I earned a living with was Windows-based. I quickly discovered that despite using the most up-to-date anti-virus software available, and even running sequential weekly scans from different AV programs, I never made it past any six-month period without one or more viruses on the machine. The local computer specialty shop had the specialized tools to clean the Windows OS and the data on the drive, so I didn't lose data TOO often - but even occasionally was too much. I swapped to Macs and never again had a virus - period. For those who know and routinely use Windows, power to you. It's your life, and you can use whatever you think best for your purposes. But I have absolutely no use for any Windows computer beyond those uses forced on me. Period.
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Post by leonski on May 8, 2024 18:27:39 GMT -5
Keith? After Moto stopped making CPU......you DID still have a choice.
Intel or AMD.......I have an AMD CPU in my laptop.....but it is 20+ years old....and has a copy of the DREAD Windows (not for) ME...... Worst of a long list of Microcoft offerings. I put Win2k on a partitiion and most ue that.....
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Post by leonski on May 8, 2024 23:34:05 GMT -5
BTW? End of support for Windows 10 is mid-October of 2025.
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Post by oldwood on May 9, 2024 11:09:24 GMT -5
...Microsoft is also pretty good about free Windows updates...Also note that you usually don't pay much of anything for Windows... What you say is true KeithL , BUT... There's no such thing as "free Windows." When I first became an independent consultant, I got a PC laptop with Windows because the (highly specialized) software I earned a living with was Windows-based. I quickly discovered that despite using the most up-to-date anti-virus software available, and even running sequential weekly scans from different AV programs, I never made it past any six-month period without one or more viruses on the machine. The local computer specialty shop had the specialized tools to clean the Windows OS and the data on the drive, so I didn't lose data TOO often - but even occasionally was too much. I swapped to Macs and never again had a virus - period. For those who know and routinely use Windows, power to you. It's your life, and you can use whatever you think best for your purposes. But I have absolutely no use for any Windows computer beyond those uses forced on me. Period. I, too, was stuck with windows because of software that I needed to run my business. I have a win 7 VM I run on a rare occasion, and it just reminds me every time how much I like NOT running windows
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on May 9, 2024 12:34:42 GMT -5
...Microsoft is also pretty good about free Windows updates...Also note that you usually don't pay much of anything for Windows... What you say is true KeithL, BUT... There's no such thing as "free Windows." When I first became an independent consultant, I got a PC laptop with Windows because the (highly specialized) software I earned a living with was Windows-based. I quickly discovered that despite using the most up-to-date anti-virus software available, and even running sequential weekly scans from different AV programs, I never made it past any six-month period without one or more viruses on the machine. The local computer specialty shop had the specialized tools to clean the Windows OS and the data on the drive, so I didn't lose data TOO often - but even occasionally was too much. I swapped to Macs and never again had a virus - period. For those who know and routinely use Windows, power to you. It's your life, and you can use whatever you think best for your purposes. But I have absolutely no use for any Windows computer beyond those uses forced on me. Period. Boom....I did the same and will never go back to a windows machine at home. Been very happy with the Mac...in fact just replaced an aging Macbook Air with an M3 based Macbook Pro.
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Post by Boomzilla on May 9, 2024 12:52:55 GMT -5
Boom....I did the same and will never go back to a windows machine at home. Been very happy with the Mac...in fact just replaced an aging Macbook Air with an M3 based Macbook Pro. I think the reason I had so many virus problems with my work Windows machine was that, by necessity, I had to hook up to unsecured hotel wireless networks everywhere I went. If I had it to do over again, I might have used a VPN on the Windows laptop, but with my Macs, I've never needed one. I'm NOT looking forward to using Windows on the NUC that I'm getting, but I've not much choice. The manufacturer's software works on Windows, and ONLY on Windows. The question I've not yet asked of the manufacturer is whether their software is available to ALL their customers. If not, then there's no value in me reviewing software that the average consumer can't access! If I ** DON'T ** need to review the software package, then I'll just use the NUC to stream to until Roon ships their new Nucleus - then consider whether (or not) I need to keep the NUC at all.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 9, 2024 15:32:48 GMT -5
Hotel networks are notorious for being security risks... If I had to use them I would probably consider just keeping a separate laptop specifically for that purpose... You'll be thrilled to know that Apple's desktop computers have finally grown up enough to start having their own viruses... And, don't worry, Windows 11 has gotten almost as annoying as MacOS... It even has an "App Store"... Always remember that the computer is JUST a way to run the software... So all that really matters is that it will run the software you need... (That's why I never liked Apple... because a lot of the software I actually use won't run on them.) Note that you don't have to install separate antivirus or firewall software on Windows 11. Windows 10, and now Windows 11, have both built-in... It isn't half bad... and it will take over automatically if you don't install anything else. (In fact it's pretty hard to get rid of Windows security unless you install something else to replace it.) Boom....I did the same and will never go back to a windows machine at home. Been very happy with the Mac...in fact just replaced an aging Macbook Air with an M3 based Macbook Pro. I think the reason I had so many virus problems with my work Windows machine was that, by necessity, I had to hook up to unsecured hotel wireless networks everywhere I went. If I had it to do over again, I might have used a VPN on the Windows laptop, but with my Macs, I've never needed one. I'm NOT looking forward to using Windows on the NUC that I'm getting, but I've not much choice. The manufacturer's software works on Windows, and ONLY on Windows. The question I've not yet asked of the manufacturer is whether their software is available to ALL their customers. If not, then there's no value in me reviewing software that the average consumer can't access! If I ** DON'T ** need to review the software package, then I'll just use the NUC to stream to until Roon ships their new Nucleus - then consider whether (or not) I need to keep the NUC at all.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 9, 2024 15:38:55 GMT -5
Thanks, Mark - I don't need any significant longevity from this NUC - It has two (and only two) purposes for me: 1. Act as a Roon endpoint until my Nucleus arrives next month and 2. Act as a DSP renderer for a subwoofer I'm about to review. When those two chores are completed, I'll unplug the NUC, put it on a shelf, and never, ever think about the vile little Windows thing again unless (sometime in the future that I hope never comes) I need to run another &^%&$%#$%^()&*_+ Windows program. Finis. If it had more RAM, I'd consider buying it from you when you are done! Which Windows version is it? Windows 11 Home or Pro? And, your hate of Windows is legendary here. LOL! Oddly enough, I despise Apple stuff as much as you despise Windows. It's interesting the issues you had in the past with viruses on Windows. I've been using Windows since very early versions, and I can't recall the last time I had a virus. I've been using Norton products as long as I can recall. Mark
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 9, 2024 15:45:12 GMT -5
I don't think that AMD was as big of a player back then... So Apple went with "if you can't beat 'em - join 'em " with Intel... (It was just a bit comical to see the abrupt "about face"...) Nobody I know liked Windows Millenium Edition (ME)... Windows 2000 was a lot better... and I used it for a long time. But I did think that Windows XP was a significant improvement... I really liked Windows... Nobody liked Windows 8.0 ... Windows 8.1 was somewhat better... And Windows 10 is actually quite nice - mostly (although finding stuff in Control Panel - or maybe not - can be annoying)... I personally fail to notice much difference between Windows 10 and Windows 11... (But I don't use things like the built-in file manager anyway...) I could happily live with Windows XP or Windows 7... Except that a LOT of what I use now won't run on either of them... Windows 10 seems to rate a solid "Mostly Harmless" rating. (Although I just can't get excited about an operating system.) Keith? After Moto stopped making CPU......you DID still have a choice. Intel or AMD.......I have an AMD CPU in my laptop.....but it is 20+ years old....and has a copy of the DREAD Windows (not for) ME...... Worst of a long list of Microcoft offerings. I put Win2k on a partitiion and most ue that.....
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 9, 2024 15:56:19 GMT -5
That's been my experience as well... I use either Checkpoint or just the built-in Windows Defender and Windows firewall (depending on the computer and what I use it for)... And I can't recall the last time I've actually had a virus infection on any of my computers... I do use a VPN... but mostly to cloak my location and/or my identity. (Most people don't seem to understand that a VPN won't protect them from most of the stuff they're worried about.) It's worth keeping in mind that the solid majority of hacks occur due to user error or carelessness... (running or opening a file or e-mail you don't recognize, clicking-on or replying-to something you shouldn't, or visiting a sketchy website) It's pretty rare these days to see a hacker actually "hack in to someone's computer from the Internet"... The standard NAT function found in almost all home routers these days also makes it rather difficult to do so. Phishing is easier, and more effective; you can do it "wholesale", and there is no really effective way to prevent it - other than being properly careful. ...................... And, your hate of Windows is legendary here. LOL! Oddly enough, I despise Apple stuff as much as you despise Windows. It's interesting the issues you had in the past with viruses on Windows. I've been using Windows since very early versions, and I can't recall the last time I had a virus. I've been using Norton products as long as I can recall. Mark
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 9, 2024 16:20:17 GMT -5
Yeah... they're trying to push everyone over to Windows 11. I don't recall the details but they've also relaxed the hardware requirements for the upgrade. To be quite honest I don't notice much difference between Windows 10 and Windows 11. The main "sticking point" was that a lot of older hardware simply wouldn't run Windows 11 because of those requirements. BTW? End of support for Windows 10 is mid-October of 2025.
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Post by marcl on May 9, 2024 17:01:50 GMT -5
Yeah... they're trying to push everyone over to Windows 11. I don't recall the details but they've also relaxed the hardware requirements for the upgrade. To be quite honest I don't notice much difference between Windows 10 and Windows 11. The main "sticking point" was that a lot of older hardware simply wouldn't run Windows 11 because of those requirements. BTW? End of support for Windows 10 is mid-October of 2025. Yeah I have it on my laptop and it's just a little annoying that they made some UI changes that are pointless ... just change for the sake of change but I have to figure it out each time. When I have to upgrade I will, but for now the desk PC's are staying on 10. Maybe I just wait for 12
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on May 9, 2024 17:05:22 GMT -5
To be quite honest I don't notice much difference between Windows 10 and Windows 11. The main "sticking point" was that a lot of older hardware simply wouldn't run Windows 11 because of those requirements. I like W11 a lot more than W10. Key things I like are: 1) The snap layouts and improved multiple desktops (I use each a lot) 2) Support for Android Apps 3) The new start menu with pinned apps 4) Improved update process. Mark
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Post by leonski on May 9, 2024 18:37:25 GMT -5
Thanks, Mark - I don't need any significant longevity from this NUC - It has two (and only two) purposes for me: 1. Act as a Roon endpoint until my Nucleus arrives next month and 2. Act as a DSP renderer for a subwoofer I'm about to review. When those two chores are completed, I'll unplug the NUC, put it on a shelf, and never, ever think about the vile little Windows thing again unless (sometime in the future that I hope never comes) I need to run another &^%&$%#$%^()&*_+ Windows program. Finis. If it had more RAM, I'd consider buying it from you when you are done! Which Windows version is it? Windows 11 Home or Pro? And, your hate of Windows is legendary here. LOL! Oddly enough, I despise Apple stuff as much as you despise Windows. It's interesting the issues you had in the past with viruses on Windows. I've been using Windows since very early versions, and I can't recall the last time I had a virus. I've been using Norton products as long as I can recall. Mark Norton? I'm choking AND laughing. On my original DIY Win95 box, I installed Norton with 'crash protection'......which CAUSED crashes. Computer stability improved drastically when I removed it..... I think one of the major 'virus' causes is dislike of Bill Gates. Everyone I knew in the past with Windows machines when having problems would curse Bill Gates. The Mac users would blame themselves. Also? Don't forget that at Hacker Conventions? OS systems were traditionally among the easiest to fool with. I think the 'coolness' of Apple helped in that regard and Hackers went to the #1 OS....which was Windows I wonder how prone other systems are? What about Linux based sytems in any of the issues?
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