KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 17, 2014 10:17:37 GMT -5
If 11.2 becomes the standard in five years, then you'll be glad that you aren't still making payments on the XMC-1... Really, because the XMC-1 is modular, even then it probably will be possible to do an upgrade; the only question will be whether the upgrade is economically feasible. If you have to change all the boards, then it isn't going to be worth upgrading the box; but, if that does eventually happen, then your 25% upgrade for life will be your best upgrade path. The problem is the source device at this point... Lots of 4k displays with varying degrees of 4k'ness and essentially no sources... Unless you want to call the Sony HD drive a "player". It is NOT a legitimate source. It is a marketing tool, IMO. The interface to the display is proprietary and can only be used on a companion Sony product. Great for the guy who wants to say he has 4k, but it is not commercially viable. We've got a way to go until we have a real standard and commercial availability of source components and media. No need to get hung up on 2.0, we've got bigger fish to fry! Don't get me started on HDCP 2.2... Another battleground. Us Emovite's can sit back and wait for the dust to settle and then we'll make the switch to whatever wins. If you've got a 4 k display enjoy it and plan to wait a while for 4k sources and content that are meaningful. Cheers, big Dan 2.0 was never an issue. Just the bait and switch  . Although, it really was never a bait for me because I don't care about 2.0 on my 1080P TV. I do hope the XMC-1 won't be like the Theta Casanova. Great intentions but in the end was abandoned with no upgrades due to massive changes in standards. For instance what happens if 11.2 becomes the norm in 5 years? Keep it real homie...you already have us sold, you can take the sales hat off and just talk to us. At least me. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 17, 2014 10:21:52 GMT -5
Hmmmm..... What I'm seeing is that you can buy two XMC-1's - and still have enough money left over for a power amp - for the price of that Theta Casanova..... This is a good question. The whole XMC-1 "development" over the past five or so years has driven some customers to other units, while others have waited patiently, and some not so patiently. Once the XMC-1 is ready to ship, some customers will buy right away. However, others will wait to let the inevitable hardware/firmware issues show up and then make a decision. This most recent event and how it unfolded adds to a rather questionable track record concerning the introduction of new audio/video processors going back several years to the UMC-1. A very high bar was set for the XMC-1, and not meeting expectations will inevitably lead to disappointment and discontent from many loyal customers. This will undoubtedly put more disappointed customers on the sidelines as there is now much greater uncertainty about what the XMC-1 will really be. Let's hope the worst is over and we can look forward to a fine product. I'll keep my fingers crossed.  The other big unknown is the upgrade process. Is it going to be a DIY, ship it back and at what cost? Look at the track record of pre/pro upgrades by the various companies. Also, the "upgrade for life" program. Read what that says...but then the XMC-1 is now good for 10-15 years. Which is it? Is that program now obsolete? Do we get 25% off of upgrades? Well, the only ones upgrading are the ones with the product so that makes no sense either. There are still lots of unknowns out there...all the better reason that I woke up and smelled the coffee. I promised to write a detailed review on the XMC-1 with nice comparisons to the UMC-200 and XDA-2 to help others make good informed decisions. Unfortunately, that won't be until April of 2016, when all of these questions are put to bed now. I still have my buddy's Theta Casanova - one he bought in 1999 for $4,500 expecting it to be his last pre/pro as promised by the great Neil Sinclair. It was obsolete in two years and zero upgrades in four before it was discontinued. The main reason he spent that money as a kid fresh out of college is because it was promised to never be obsolete due to its modular design. Just so you guys know where I'm coming from. "Why do we have this Upgrade For Life program? Due to emerging technologies, home theater processors become quickly outdated. We want to help you stay current with new technologies by making it affordable to upgrade to a new processor when necessary. After all, you are in the family now." |
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Post by PGT on Feb 17, 2014 10:23:29 GMT -5
That's the thing though....the Sony ES receiver I matched with a Sony 70" TV for my parents didn't work properly. Of all companies....Sony used to be the best at making their stuff work together (S-Link anybody?). - Sometimes the terseness of my reply can't be blamed on my phone.  |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 17, 2014 10:32:04 GMT -5
On the subject of Netflix.... I read an interesting article recently - about bandwidth. It seems that, amazingly, not everyone out there even has enough bandwidth on their Internet connection for plain old HD (I believe it was rather less than HALF, actually). In case you were wondering, it's bandwidth that limits the actual "picture quality" you get. Without more bandwidth, you can send a picture with more pixels - but it won't be any sharper. (It's like making a "bigger" JPeG - but using more compression - you end up with a fuzzy picture with lots of pixels.) In fact, you may end up sacrificing frame rate for pixel count - and end up with a sharp picture that jumps and stutters. So Netflix is going to have a real problem delivering "better than HD" to customers any time soon - because they're already having trouble delivering regular HD. (They are working on new CODECs - like h265 - which will hopefully help a bit, but there are limits to how well a CODEC can compress without introducing visible artifacts.) Note that there ARE no physical media with higher capacity on the "near horizon" either. What's there after Blu-Ray for "super HD discs"? That's a VERY good question. A Blu-Ray disc can either hold a really good quality HD picture, or a not-so-good-quality 4k picture; which would you rather have? ...had a feeling that 4K is at least a couple of years from being mainstream along with agreed upon specs, so until we have 10 or 12 bit 4K video with frame rates of at least 60Hz, then 4K isn't really giving consumers it's full capability, so a 4K flat panel won't be on my list of must haves for quite a while... Just as everyone has their own standards and requirements for audio, so do different people have their own standards and requirements for video. That's to be expected and it's part of what makes these discussions, well, interesting (!?!) OK, how about never a dull moment. The last round of Panasonic PDPs, along with the previous Kuro models that they are built on the bones of, certainly set the bar at a high level for now, but it is worth being on the lookout for the forthcoming Vizio "E" series 4K/UHD sets and their "Reference" models that will be hitting the market in Q3. I saw them at CES, as did some other well respected reviewers I trust and once these hit the stores I think they will cause a major shift in people's take on 4K/UHD. Both are full LED backlit, not edge-lit so that in combination with very well done local dimming you have very good contrast/black level. No, not 100% the equal of OLED or the high-end Panasonics, but REALLY damn close. More importantly, these are 10-bit panels, so they are ready for the 10-bit content that will be coming sooner than you might suspect. The Reference line model was a REAL stunner, particularly thanks to Dolby Vision and assorted HDR/WCG processing techniques. There was a side-by-side demo in their display area with a non HDR/WCG set and the footage knocked everyone's socks off. Pricing for the Reference Series model was not announced, but one of the E Series (a 55" UHD set, as I recall) was $999. THAT will set the majors on their heels as the image quality is 100% there. Add in the on-board HEVC that will allow decoding of 4K streams that will be out later this year from Netflix (House of Cards in 4K, etc.) and via DirecTV and others. As additional external streamer STBs for 4K become available later this year you'll see the requirement for at least HDCP 2.2 and the 2160/60p, 10-bit colour video formats make those who are not interested in the more advanced connectivity solutions change their mind. There are two major industry conferences this week, on for programming and one for the technical side of things and I'll be curious to see what the reports are from them as it impacts our purchase decisions. IN particular, one of the events has half a day devoted to "More Pixels/Better Pixels/Faster Pixels" and we'll be able to sense from that what the near and mid-term direction is for those who produce/shoot/edit/distribute content will b as well as from those who have to montitize it and manage the business side of the distribution chain. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 17, 2014 10:36:21 GMT -5
Keith, 4K on BRD is already being done. There are 100Gb and 120Gb Blu Ray discs already developed with both Sony and Samsung (at least) supporting the format.
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Post by Jim on Feb 17, 2014 10:43:55 GMT -5
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Post by Andrew Robinson on Feb 17, 2014 10:48:13 GMT -5
Keith, 4K on BRD is already being done. There are 100Gb and 120Gb Blu Ray discs already developed with both Sony and Samsung (at least) supporting the format. Developed and "real" yes, but largely in the computer/data storage markets for now. Not saying they won't transition to the home, but as of right now they're strictly being employed in the computing markets. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 17, 2014 10:54:58 GMT -5
Who is all planning on waiting or getting it right away? I have an ST60 series Panasonic plasma, their very last manufactured 60 series line. I bought it because I wanted bigger and had a feeling that 4K is at least a couple of years from being mainstream along with agreed upon specs, so until we have 10 or 12 bit 4K video with frame rates of at least 60Hz, then 4K isn't really giving consumers it's full capability, so a 4K flat panel won't be on my list of must haves for quite a while. Given what I just said, your question is an easy one for me. I have always liked Panny Plasmas and I agree this will serve you for a long time. I think HD pictures still look outstanding and the need to get a new TV is not urgent but my next TV has to be a 4K TV. And yes, I look forward to your impressions. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Feb 17, 2014 11:00:28 GMT -5
On the subject of Netflix.... I read an interesting article recently - about bandwidth. It seems that, amazingly, not everyone out there even has enough bandwidth on their Internet connection for plain old HD (I believe it was rather less than HALF, actually). It seems that many of the 'all streaming world' proponents seem to overlook or ignore this fact (Andrew?). At this time we still need a high capacity storage format for many to want or be able to adopt UHD/4K. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 17, 2014 11:06:26 GMT -5
"Developed" is a relative word. This discussion will become useful AFTER the first 500 titles are released on the new format; or after the first 100,000 players compatible with the new discs are sold. I don't doubt that it will happen someday - and probably in the next five to ten years - but I try to avoid being too optimistic ("holographic" storage was demonstrated in the lab years ago, but never got to market). In the mean time, disc media sales are sliding slightly, and Internet video sales are up - but see my other post about the inability of many people to receive even decent quality HD broadcasts let alone 4k. The Blu-Ray format was released in 2006, and it took seven years to get 50% of the market share (it has a little above that now). However, it will indeed be interesting to see what percentage of the market is willing to move from Blu-Ray to another new format - this soon. It is a snake-eating-its-tail situation between content and players. Every TV manufacturer is going to come out with "4k" sets because they need it as a new "must have feature" for next years' models. However, players won't start being sold until there are titles, and titles won't be sold until there are players.... and neither of those will happen until there are standards. (Do you remember Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD? Some people do.) Also, until a few years ago, the "common consensus" was that full HD wasn't even worth the bother for sets under 30 inches (I recall any number of articles proclaiming that "you can't see any difference between a 720p set and a full 1080p set unless it's 30" or larger). It will be interesting to see how many of next year's "4k" sets actually deliver a picture that's physically sharp enough that you can actually see the difference. (Again, remember the pricing sequence. If you buy a middle-to-top line TV next year, it will probably be "4k compatible", but those new "4k players" will be very expensive when they come out, and there won't be many - if any - titles, so they will almost certainly lag far behind the TVs in terms of adoption.) Keith, 4K on BRD is already being done. There are 100Gb and 120Gb Blu Ray discs already developed with both Sony and Samsung (at least) supporting the format. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 17, 2014 11:08:55 GMT -5
Indeed..... and the writer is only $179 (but the blanks are $44 EACH - down from a list of $120!). Perhaps this will eventually be the new standard. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 17, 2014 11:12:11 GMT -5
Keith, of course any new technology is more expensive than the old. But manufacturers are banking on 4K to do what 3D did not do: save their industry. Displays, players, switches and titles will appear quickly, much more quickly than I thought they would, and at reasonable prices. And by the way, UHD and BDXL are not a new format, they are completely compatible with BRD and DVD.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 17, 2014 11:32:48 GMT -5
You bring up an interesting point : So what DID happen to 3D? (And, will they be gun-shy to bet on a new "savior of the industry" after 3D flopped?) As far as I can tell, 3D became a "checkbox" feature ("as long as we're buying a new TV anyway, it ought to do 3D"). A lot of people buying a new TV bought one that did 3D, but very few people bought a new TV BECAUSE it did 3D. Very few people tossed a perfectly good 2D TV and replaced it with a 3D one. And, if the prices of bigger screens weren't dropping like rocks, it would have been even less. (Just like Windows 8 was a failure - because every new PC sells with a copy of Windows on it - and Microsoft makes the same amount whether it's Windows 7 or Windows 8. They only make EXTRA money when someone who already has Windows 7 upgrades to Windows 8 - which almost never happens.) On one side of the question, manufacturers may hope that, unlike 3D, "a better picture" will appeal to a wider audience. But, on the other side, they may see 4k as "another waste of money - like 3D". In theory, the new cheaper/larger screens should justify a need for higher resolution - if 4k really delivers better picture quality a majority of the time. (Yes, it theoretically CAN deliver better picture quality; but whether it will with most sets is still uncertain. If it turns out that you can't tell the difference on a typical $500 forty inch set, people will catch on.) What worries me is that manufacturers will initially be all gung-ho for it, but that the push will run out of steam very quickly. How many folks will buy "4k TVs" only to find that they can't get solid 4k streaming where they live, and there are only a few dozen 4k titles available, and that they'll need to buy a $500 player to play them? (And how many people who "invested" in 3D will be willing to do the same thing all over again with 4k?) And how many studios will press 4k discs until there are a significant number of players out there to play them. HD was a HUGE step up from DVD; will 4k be perceived as an equally large step? Keith, of course any new technology is more expensive than the old. But manufacturers are banking on 4K to do what 3D did not do: save their industry. Displays, players, switches and titles will appear quickly, much more quickly than I thought they would, and at reasonable prices. |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 17, 2014 11:40:46 GMT -5
3D failed largely because it failed to deliver any real value to the average consumer, and because of the need to wear glasses. It is now a joke in the industry: an engineer's "new and improved" idea is derisively called "the next 3D." Display manufacturers are struggling at the moment because of over investment in manufacturing infrastructure with retail prices falling faster than costs could be lowered. The ones I work with are pushing 4K technology for a couple of reasons, one is because existing tools can be used to create the screens (and yields are improving so that very soon they might actually make money on them) and the hope that an improved image might actually be a hit in the marketplace. Lighter and thinner screens drove new sales for a while after 3D flopped, but that bubble is now bursting so they need to create the next one. Either that or they go back to making cell phone displays and memory chips. When you live in a 10% gross margin industry, you need whatever market bubble you can grab onto. |
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Post by rogersch on Feb 17, 2014 11:43:49 GMT -5
Another nice one: Standards are like toothbrushes. Everybody wants one but nobody wants to use anybody else’s.  Or this one:  |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 17, 2014 11:45:52 GMT -5
Keith, 4K on BRD is already being done. There are 100Gb and 120Gb Blu Ray discs already developed with both Sony and Samsung (at least) supporting the format. Developed and "real" yes, but largely in the computer/data storage markets for now. Not saying they won't transition to the home, but as of right now they're strictly being employed in the computing markets. Yes, but as I said, both Sony and Samsung have announced support for the technology and plan to release players this year. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 17, 2014 11:53:30 GMT -5
Yep - I've got a "3-D capable" projector but I've NEVER used that feature (and probably never will). If one wears prescription glasses, then 3-D goggles (particularly the electronic ones used to view home video in 3-D) are a supreme PITA. I actually bought my projector DESPITE it's 3-D capabilities. For my 110" screen size, I truly doubt that 4K will offer much of an improvement over Blu-Ray. If I had 4x the screen real-estate (and a projector with the requisite light output), then yes, maybe 4K would be worth an investment. Until what I've got dies, though, I'm not contemplating any moves.
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Post by rogersch on Feb 17, 2014 12:02:54 GMT -5
On the subject of Netflix.... I read an interesting article recently - about bandwidth. It seems that, amazingly, not everyone out there even has enough bandwidth on their Internet connection for plain old HD Well in the Netherlands the situation is a bit different. There already in January 2013 90% of the Households were able to have an internet connection of 100 Mbits/sec. And 98% could have access to a broadband connection of 30 MBits/sec. This is now even progessed. The cable TV companies and the fixed Glas operators are "fighting" for higher download speeds. 200 MBits/sec, 500 MBits/Sec and even 1 Gbits/sec connections are on the horizon.... |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 17, 2014 12:04:19 GMT -5
4K displays with good up-scaling engines are pretty remarkable. Put one side by side with a 1080HD screen and feed them both the same input and the difference is quite apparent. Once the prices start to fall, I expect 4k will become the default display for HT users and the generic choice for average consumers looking for a new screen. But the real question is will it be enough to drive people to replace perfectly good displays that they already own. That's where 3D really failed: it wasn't good enough to force upgrades. This flat panel display industry is desperate for something that will do for them the same thing that keeps the cell phone industry alive: create the desire for users to upgrade. "Smart TV" is driving some upgrades, but with every other part of the system already internet connected (and with Apple TV or Chrome Cast or Roku devices being so cheap) that is failing as well. If 4K doesn't do it then there will have to be the "next big thing" created or several more manufacturers may abandon the market in 2014.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 17, 2014 12:07:28 GMT -5
Thanks, DYohn - I believe you. I've not yet seen a 4K display, so I can't really say. I do know that at its best my 1080p projector on a good 110" high-contrast screen gives an AMAZING picture.
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The problem is the source device at this point...
. Although, it really was never a bait for me because I don't care about 2.0 on my 1080P TV. 
