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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 16, 2014 18:47:00 GMT -5
The 7030 was a nice buy. The sound quality I'm sure is great. And yes you can sit back like I will be now and just watch it all unfold before we buy anything. I'll let all the 4K and 2.0 settle ...no need to be hasty. I let all this hoopla get to me and act irrational. Time to be methodical and patient in my upgrades. 2016...with 2.0. Who is all planning on waiting or getting it right away? I'm very happy with my UMC-200, the sound is great, video passes straight through, it's simple to operate and handles everything I want in conjunction with the USP-1 that I use for stereo music. I have no use for 3D whatsoever, to me it's a fad pushed by display manufacturers to get consumers to upgrade, that failed dismally, as it deserved to. In OZ. we are about to get new cable boxes which have zero chance of being HDMI 2.0, so that's 80% of my watching covered without any need for 2.0, that's the next 4 to 5 years done and dusted. The standard for producing 2160 content on discs is still in its infancy with competing manufacturers still pushing their own barrow. After all there's more money to be made in copyrights than in the hardware itself. Streaming 4K is dreaming, it's years away from mass acceptance let alone market affordability. Personally I'm not thinking about a new display or a new processor until the dust settles. There are far to many balls in the air for me to put mine on the line,
My view on the XMC-1 timetable is that its typically symptomatic of the state of the industry for the last 5 years, the development of hardware for retail sale is almost impossible when there is no foundation of stability to build it on. The consumers can see it/feel it and are voting with their wallets, mine is staying right where it is, in my pocket.
Cheers Gary
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Post by Topend on Feb 16, 2014 19:22:33 GMT -5
I'm not interested in 4K for a display. I am interested in a 4K projector but who knows when they will be available and affordable.
The HDMI 2.0 was just a nice addition but not a deal breaker.
Dave.
Dave.
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Post by geebo on Feb 16, 2014 19:24:35 GMT -5
Who is all planning on waiting or getting it right away? As soon as they tell me I can buy one I'll be in my car heading to Franklin. |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 16, 2014 19:28:08 GMT -5
I'm not interested in 4K for a display. I am interested in a 4K projector but who knows when they will be available and affordable. The HDMI 2.0 was just a nice addition but not a deal breaker. Dave. Dave. Hmmm with the two HDMI outputs...I realized one could have a regular 1080 P TV. and then when one wants to get real use the second HDMI output to go directly to a massive 4k projector screen. Very useful! I've been trying to figure out this ocnundrum. As I always use my TV for work and computer work and so things like light etc cannot interfere. But sometimes I get the hankering for a giant screen and am okay with turning out the lights then. So....this would be a perfect solution. |
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Post by wbroshea on Feb 16, 2014 19:33:22 GMT -5
Really? I'm a troll because I think the correct information should be in the thread that is at the top of every single subject rather than some thread that will make its way to the back pages (especially if it is locked)? Again, what's the downside to editing? I don't think you were ever referred to as a troll... Nevermind then if that's the case, but its pretty confusing when two others discuss the merits of ones post then move seamlessly on to a discussion about trolls. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Feb 16, 2014 19:55:35 GMT -5
Who is all planning on waiting or getting it right away? Maybe a good poll topic? |
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Post by 2muchht on Feb 16, 2014 20:22:07 GMT -5
...had a feeling that 4K is at least a couple of years from being mainstream along with agreed upon specs, so until we have 10 or 12 bit 4K video with frame rates of at least 60Hz, then 4K isn't really giving consumers it's full capability, so a 4K flat panel won't be on my list of must haves for quite a while... Just as everyone has their own standards and requirements for audio, so do different people have their own standards and requirements for video. That's to be expected and it's part of what makes these discussions, well, interesting (!?!) OK, how about never a dull moment. The last round of Panasonic PDPs, along with the previous Kuro models that they are built on the bones of, certainly set the bar at a high level for now, but it is worth being on the lookout for the forthcoming Vizio "E" series 4K/UHD sets and their "Reference" models that will be hitting the market in Q3. I saw them at CES, as did some other well respected reviewers I trust and once these hit the stores I think they will cause a major shift in people's take on 4K/UHD. Both are full LED backlit, not edge-lit so that in combination with very well done local dimming you have very good contrast/black level. No, not 100% the equal of OLED or the high-end Panasonics, but REALLY damn close. More importantly, these are 10-bit panels, so they are ready for the 10-bit content that will be coming sooner than you might suspect. The Reference line model was a REAL stunner, particularly thanks to Dolby Vision and assorted HDR/WCG processing techniques. There was a side-by-side demo in their display area with a non HDR/WCG set and the footage knocked everyone's socks off. Pricing for the Reference Series model was not announced, but one of the E Series (a 55" UHD set, as I recall) was $999. THAT will set the majors on their heels as the image quality is 100% there. Add in the on-board HEVC that will allow decoding of 4K streams that will be out later this year from Netflix (House of Cards in 4K, etc.) and via DirecTV and others. As additional external streamer STBs for 4K become available later this year you'll see the requirement for at least HDCP 2.2 and the 2160/60p, 10-bit colour video formats make those who are not interested in the more advanced connectivity solutions change their mind. There are two major industry conferences this week, on for programming and one for the technical side of things and I'll be curious to see what the reports are from them as it impacts our purchase decisions. IN particular, one of the events has half a day devoted to "More Pixels/Better Pixels/Faster Pixels" and we'll be able to sense from that what the near and mid-term direction is for those who produce/shoot/edit/distribute content will b as well as from those who have to montitize it and manage the business side of the distribution chain. |
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Post by creimes on Feb 16, 2014 20:34:15 GMT -5
Who needs reality TV with all the drama when you have another one of these threads, makes for interesting reading  |
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bootman
Emo VIPs 
Typing useless posts on internet forums....
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Post by bootman on Feb 16, 2014 21:00:46 GMT -5
Just as everyone has their own standards and requirements for audio, so do different people have their own standards and requirements for video. That's to be expected and it's part of what makes these discussions, well, interesting (!?!) OK, how about never a dull moment. The last round of Panasonic PDPs, along with the previous Kuro models that they are built on the bones of, certainly set the bar at a high level for now, but it is worth being on the lookout for the forthcoming Vizio "E" series 4K/UHD sets and their "Reference" models that will be hitting the market in Q3. I saw them at CES, as did some other well respected reviewers I trust and once these hit the stores I think they will cause a major shift in people's take on 4K/UHD. Both are full LED backlit, not edge-lit so that in combination with very well done local dimming you have very good contrast/black level. No, not 100% the equal of OLED or the high-end Panasonics, but REALLY damn close. More importantly, these are 10-bit panels, so they are ready for the 10-bit content that will be coming sooner than you might suspect. The Reference line model was a REAL stunner, particularly thanks to Dolby Vision and assorted HDR/WCG processing techniques. There was a side-by-side demo in their display area with a non HDR/WCG set and the footage knocked everyone's socks off. Pricing for the Reference Series model was not announced, but one of the E Series (a 55" UHD set, as I recall) was $999. THAT will set the majors on their heels as the image quality is 100% there. Add in the on-board HEVC that will allow decoding of 4K streams that will be out later this year from Netflix (House of Cards in 4K, etc.) and via DirecTV and others. As additional external streamer STBs for 4K become available later this year you'll see the requirement for at least HDCP 2.2 and the 2160/60p, 10-bit colour video formats make those who are not interested in the more advanced connectivity solutions change their mind. There are two major industry conferences this week, on for programming and one for the technical side of things and I'll be curious to see what the reports are from them as it impacts our purchase decisions. IN particular, one of the events has half a day devoted to "More Pixels/Better Pixels/Faster Pixels" and we'll be able to sense from that what the near and mid-term direction is for those who produce/shoot/edit/distribute content will b as well as from those who have to montitize it and manage the business side of the distribution chain. Thanks for this info. I'm now starting to get excited about 4K again. HEVC is the key here and content will come quicker than disks in the form of streaming using this. I don't need the XMC to decode any streams, just let the bits pass through unmolested to the display. BTW you don't need HDMI 2.0 to do this now..... |
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Post by geebo on Feb 16, 2014 21:18:56 GMT -5
I don't think you were ever referred to as a troll... Nevermind then if that's the case, but its pretty confusing when two others discuss the merits of ones post then move seamlessly on to a discussion about trolls. I wasn't understanding your question. I thought you were looking for an explanation from Dan on the 2.0/1.4b thing which he did but not where you were thinking it should be. I certainly wasn't considering you a troll. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 16, 2014 21:31:35 GMT -5
There is still a debate going on regarding HVEC (higher quality video, licence fees, HDMI) versus VP9 (better streaming, free licencing, DisplayPort). Then there is the newcomer, Daala which is promoted as being superior to both HVEC and VP9. Personally I'm not willing to pick a winner at this time.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by 2muchht on Feb 16, 2014 21:55:51 GMT -5
You are correct, sir. Add to that the eyeIO technology that Sony is using in their current "hatbox" server. There are more than a few of these things out there.
That said, the general consensus amongst programme purveyors at this point in time seems to lead us to HEVC as the current leader. Of course, that may not translate into the "WINNER". On the other hand, discussions at CES with technologists from DirecTV and Netflix seem to point to the fact that since HEVC is already a feature in 4K/UHD sets now, it is the likely method to be used at least for the first phase of this or two.
Mr. Boot is also correct that if the decoding is going to be done in the display, as it will again likely be, you don't need HDMI 2.0 in the processor or AVR, BUT: The signal flow from the IP source to the display and then back out to the AVR or SSP is still TBD. Let's say the IP trail goes directly to the set, as it will for Netflix but not DirecTV. The set does the HEVC decoding and then takes what it needs for the image from there. Where does that leave the sound? If it is 5.1 PCM extracted in the set, it can go out via optical or ARC. Again, no 2.0 or HDCP 2.2 needed.
Where it gets interesting is when you might want bitstream into the SSP or AVR for higher resolution formats or more channels than the TV can extract and output via SP/DIF (doesn't matter if it through an optical output or internal to the ARC stream). How will that be handled? TBD.
On top of that, if the stream is ANYTHING other than the HEVC that the display can handle you'll need an external STB or dongle in some fashion and THAT will require HDMI 2.0 if you are looking for 2160/60p with better colour depth or sampling as many here would like. (Or, just ask Joe Kane...) AND, if the content is 4K from anywhere to anywhere else via HDMI, as opposed to IP, you can bet your boots that the fine, fine folks at the studios will require HDCP 2.2.
No one ever said it would be easy. Time will tell...
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Lsc
Emo VIPs
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Post by Lsc on Feb 16, 2014 22:06:27 GMT -5
The 7030 was a nice buy. The sound quality I'm sure is great. And yes you can sit back like I will be now and just watch it all unfold before we buy anything. I'll let all the 4K and 2.0 settle ...no need to be hasty. I let all this hoopla get to me and act irrational. Time to be methodical and patient in my upgrades. 2016...with 2.0. Who is all planning on waiting or getting it right away? This is a good question. The whole XMC-1 "development" over the past five or so years has driven some customers to other units, while others have waited patiently, and some not so patiently. Once the XMC-1 is ready to ship, some customers will buy right away. However, others will wait to let the inevitable hardware/firmware issues show up and then make a decision. This most recent event and how it unfolded adds to a rather questionable track record concerning the introduction of new audio/video processors going back several years to the UMC-1. A very high bar was set for the XMC-1, and not meeting expectations will inevitably lead to disappointment and discontent from many loyal customers. This will undoubtedly put more disappointed customers on the sidelines as there is now much greater uncertainty about what the XMC-1 will really be. Let's hope the worst is over and we can look forward to a fine product. I'll keep my fingers crossed.  The other big unknown is the upgrade process. Is it going to be a DIY, ship it back and at what cost? Look at the track record of pre/pro upgrades by the various companies. Also, the "upgrade for life" program. Read what that says...but then the XMC-1 is now good for 10-15 years. Which is it? Is that program now obsolete? Do we get 25% off of upgrades? Well, the only ones upgrading are the ones with the product so that makes no sense either. There are still lots of unknowns out there...all the better reason that I woke up and smelled the coffee. I promised to write a detailed review on the XMC-1 with nice comparisons to the UMC-200 and XDA-2 to help others make good informed decisions. Unfortunately, that won't be until April of 2016, when all of these questions are put to bed now. I still have my buddy's Theta Casanova - one he bought in 1999 for $4,500 expecting it to be his last pre/pro as promised by the great Neil Sinclair. It was obsolete in two years and zero upgrades in four before it was discontinued. The main reason he spent that money as a kid fresh out of college is because it was promised to never be obsolete due to its modular design. Just so you guys know where I'm coming from.  "Why do we have this Upgrade For Life program? Due to emerging technologies, home theater processors become quickly outdated. We want to help you stay current with new technologies by making it affordable to upgrade to a new processor when necessary. After all, you are in the family now." |
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Feb 17, 2014 1:03:28 GMT -5
You are correct, sir. Add to that the eyeIO technology that Sony is using in their current "hatbox" server. There are more than a few of these things out there. That said, the general consensus amongst programme purveyors at this point in time seems to lead us to HEVC as the current leader. Of course, that may not translate into the "WINNER". On the other hand, discussions at CES with technologists from DirecTV and Netflix seem to point to the fact that since HEVC is already a feature in 4K/UHD sets now, it is the likely method to be used at least for the first phase of this or two. Mr. Boot is also correct that if the decoding is going to be done in the display, as it will again likely be, you don't need HDMI 2.0 in the processor or AVR, BUT: The signal flow from the IP source to the display and then back out to the AVR or SSP is still TBD. Let's say the IP trail goes directly to the set, as it will for Netflix but not DirecTV. The set does the HEVC decoding and then takes what it needs for the image from there. Where does that leave the sound? If it is 5.1 PCM extracted in the set, it can go out via optical or ARC. Again, no 2.0 or HDCP 2.2 needed. Where it gets interesting is when you might want bitstream into the SSP or AVR for higher resolution formats or more channels than the TV can extract and output via SP/DIF (doesn't matter if it through an optical output or internal to the ARC stream). How will that be handled? TBD. On top of that, if the stream is ANYTHING other than the HEVC that the display can handle you'll need an external STB or dongle in some fashion and THAT will require HDMI 2.0 if you are looking for 2160/60p with better colour depth or sampling as many here would like. (Or, just ask Joe Kane...) AND, if the content is 4K from anywhere to anywhere else via HDMI, as opposed to IP, you can bet your boots that the fine, fine folks at the studios will require HDCP 2.2. No one ever said it would be easy. Time will tell... Exactly why I bought the ST60 so I can sit it out until the dust settles. Products like the Vizio's you mentioned and the LG's OLED mentioned in the link below are promising, but until well after these when the prices settle a bit my ST60 will have to suffice. www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/lg-hevc-201401033549.htm |
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Post by 2muchht on Feb 17, 2014 1:14:39 GMT -5
While the OLEDs are great it is the incedible value proposition of the Vizio E Series that will change things to the point of being so disruptive in the greater acceptance of UHD. For what you now pay for a Seiki you will get a REAL image.
Time will tell...
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Feb 17, 2014 9:18:12 GMT -5
This is very offensive. Read the forum rules. What's offensive? |
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Post by pop on Feb 17, 2014 9:30:06 GMT -5
I'm not interested in 4K for a display. I am interested in a 4K projector but who knows when they will be available and affordable. The HDMI 2.0 was just a nice addition but not a deal breaker. Dave. Dave. Hmmm with the two HDMI outputs...I realized one could have a regular 1080 P TV. and then when one wants to get real use the second HDMI output to go directly to a massive 4k projector screen. Very useful! I've been trying to figure out this ocnundrum. As I always use my TV for work and computer work and so things like light etc cannot interfere. But sometimes I get the hankering for a giant screen and am okay with turning out the lights then. So....this would be a perfect solution. You could have it set on a trigger as well so when you switch to the projector the screen drops in front of your TV. Classy! |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 17, 2014 9:35:47 GMT -5
Hmmm with the two HDMI outputs...I realized one could have a regular 1080 P TV. and then when one wants to get real use the second HDMI output to go directly to a massive 4k projector screen. Very useful! I've been trying to figure out this ocnundrum. As I always use my TV for work and computer work and so things like light etc cannot interfere. But sometimes I get the hankering for a giant screen and am okay with turning out the lights then. So....this would be a perfect solution. You could have it set on a trigger as well so when you switch to the projector the screen drops in front of your TV. Classy! Interesting. So does this attach directly to some part of the HDMI output? How do you set it up? |
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Post by pop on Feb 17, 2014 9:54:22 GMT -5
You could have it set on a trigger as well so when you switch to the projector the screen drops in front of your TV. Classy! Interesting. So does this attach directly to some part of the HDMI output? How do you set it up? Run a trigger from the PJ to the screen. When you switch hdmi output to the PJ this should power on and hence trigger the screen to drop. When you turn the PJ off the screen should roll up. I believe any learning remote of value should be able to trigger the screen, and some screens come with a remote and wireless trigger adapter. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 17, 2014 10:12:51 GMT -5
To quote someone who, if he isn't already, should be famous (but I forget his name): "That's the nice thing about standards; there are so many of them." Much like things were in the days before "standards" - it's in each manufacturer's best interest that "their" version of CEC works well with their products - and not so well with other brands (just like Nikon lenses don't work very well with Canon cameras, and none of the cool automatic features on Nikon flashes work at all on other brands, and vice versa) - because it gives you one more reason to buy "in the family". This reasoning is quite obvious once you realize that virtually every major manufacturer has their own pet name for CEC instead of just calling it "CEC". About the only viable solution (which nobody does) would be to release the signalling standard, then allow you to program or "learn" the codes for a specific device (like it works today with "learning IR remotes"... you can learn the codes, or enter them from a list - which each manufacturer publishes for each device. will the XMC-1 have useful CEC features? I'm batting .000 on success with it from other brands. Its hard to believe in 2014 that there's still no accepted interoperability standard. - Sometimes the terseness of my reply can't be blamed on my phone.  |
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