KeithL
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Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Mar 21, 2014 13:24:47 GMT -5
I would still say that the DC-1 is a little bit better sounding than the DAC in the ERC-3, so, assuming you own both, I would go through the DC-1. Excellent explanation...... (of course I have one or two minor things to add)  . Not only are different people more or less sensitive to hearing the effects of jitter, but it also depends to a huge degree on what you're playing. It's also one of those things that different people tend to describe differently. For example, some people find that jitter makes localization of instruments in the sound stage "more vague" - but I'm not especially sensitive to that. Personally, I am unable to hear any effect from even large amounts of jitter on vocal tracks; but I tend to notice it on tracks with metallic instruments like wire-brushes on cymbals. To me, those sound more like "actual metal" with less jitter, and a lot of jitter can make them sound more like a steam valve going "tsssss tssssss" instead of individual wires hitting metal. The effect is rather subtle, and also depends on the quality of the source recording, and on what you're listening with (I notice it a lot with my Stealth 8's, but not much at all with my AKG K240 or K271's (mid-priced headphones) Also, and important in the context of this discussion, jitter tends to be an issue with "multiple box solutions" (like a separate transport and DAC) - because the signal must be "clocked out" of the source and "clocked in" to the DAC. Single box CD players almost always use a single clock (the signal is clocked once as it passes from the "mech" to the DAC). This actually means that jitter is usually less of a factor for a well designed "all in one" unit than separates. So, in the case of the ERC-3, since the data is clocked directly to the DAC, and doesn't have to pass between boxes on cables, all that really counts is the quality of that one clock - which is quite good on the ERC-3; this is why the ERC-3 doesn't really "need" any other form of jitter reduction. The benefit of the DC-1 is that it applies jitter reduction to all the digital sources connected to it. Should ERC 3 be directly connected to XSP 1 or pass it through DC1 then dc1 to XSP 1? |
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Post by katjith on Mar 21, 2014 14:03:28 GMT -5
There is a very effective simple solution for jitter reduction. Monarchy Audio makes a device called DIP which takes the digital signal from other CD players and corrects the errors and sends that signal to DAC or any other digital input. I own three. It also boosts the outgoing signal to 5V if I am not mistaken. My CDs have never sounded better. DIP received many accolades in audio circles including some reviewers in Stereophile magazine. Check their website www.monarchyaudio.com |
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Post by rod on Mar 23, 2014 9:42:12 GMT -5
I would still say that the DC-1 is a little bit better sounding than the DAC in the ERC-3, so, assuming you own both, I would go through the DC-1. Should ERC 3 be directly connected to XSP 1 or pass it through DC1 then dc1 to XSP 1? I was told to do the same thing too as mentioned above. |
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Post by garbulky on Mar 24, 2014 8:08:11 GMT -5
I would still say that the DC-1 is a little bit better sounding than the DAC in the ERC-3, so, assuming you own both, I would go through the DC-1. I was told to do the same thing too as mentioned above. You can actually try both. Pass the ERC-3 analog output direct to the XSP-1. And take the DC-1 analog output direct to XSP-1. (Have the ERC-3 connected via digital cable to the DC-1). Then switch between the two and see if you can notice any kind of quality difference. Remember to try and match the volume to be about the same or the louder one will make you think it sounds better. |
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Post by rod on Mar 24, 2014 9:54:08 GMT -5
I was told to do the same thing too as mentioned above. You can actually try both. Pass the ERC-3 analog output direct to the XSP-1. And take the DC-1 analog output direct to XSP-1. (Have the ERC-3 connected via digital cable to the DC-1). Then switch between the two and see if you can notice any kind of quality difference. Remember to try and match the volume to be about the same or the louder one will make you think it sounds better. That's another fantastic idea. I will try both ways and choose the one that sounds great to my ears ( If I can...haha) |
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Post by 2123gary on Mar 25, 2014 2:12:35 GMT -5
Rod, Have you tried streaming your music from your computer to the DC-1. I have tried my CD transport and streaming from my computer and i like the computer sound better with the usb input.
Gary
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Post by audiobill on Mar 25, 2014 14:11:42 GMT -5
Or get an Airport Express and stream wirelessly from your computer to the DC1........
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Post by rod on Apr 1, 2014 22:01:46 GMT -5
I just got my new ERC 3 today. It is now connected to my XSP 1 via XLR and to my DC 1 via optical. I notice that they almost sound the same. IMO the ERC is a little bit better than DC 1 only if you are listening to acoustic like guitar or even piano. But they almost really sound the same...
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Post by bennyb on Apr 1, 2014 22:25:12 GMT -5
Neither. Wait for the new ERC-8T. It's going to be EPIC!!!! :-D
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Post by rod on Apr 1, 2014 23:12:53 GMT -5
Oh boy!!! haha
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Post by rod on Apr 1, 2014 23:20:19 GMT -5
How come that ERC 3 and DC1 almost sound the same in sound quality?
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,273
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Post by KeithL on Apr 2, 2014 10:05:41 GMT -5
Indeed; there are LOTS of separate "black box" jitter reduction devices out there. The Monarchy was cutting edge technology in its day; and I have little doubt that it was able to produce a significant improvement from contemporary CD players. Today there are quite a few similar devices available - from $100 to several thousand dollars; the Musical Fidelity V-Link is quite popular today, and costs about what the Monarchy cost. The important thing to note with jitter, however, is that "times change" - and, along with them, what you can reasonably expect from equipment. (One "studio re-sampler and jitter reducer" from about the time when the Monarchy came out, was very proud of the fact that it could "reduce jitter to less than 2 ns". To put that in context, 2 ns is 2000 ps; the Musical Fidelity V-Link has been measured at about 300 ps; and the Audiophilleo 2 - which costs a lot more - delivers jitter performance below 10 ps. Since Monarchy doesn't seem to quote jitter specs, and the only review I could find was done years before Stereophile began doing jitter measurements, it would be interesting to know where the Monarchy falls into that continuum.) I believe the Monarchy also re-samples the audio to a higher sample rate, which can also change the sound - depending on the DAC you're using. Ten or fifteen years ago, very little was "known" about jitter; CD players typically had serious jitter problems, and very few DACs had built-in jitter reduction. Because all the components in a modern "CD player" reside in one box, a well designed modern CD player should already have quite low jitter. When you combine that with a good quality internal DAC, that allows our ERC-3 to deliver audio performance and sound quality quite close to what you would get with a separate DAC (like the XDA-2). (Note that, if you connect that CD player to a separate DAC, in a separate enclosure, using a cable, and going through input and output circuitry, jitter again becomes an issue.) Our XDA-2 and DC-1 include internal jitter-elimination circuitry (the ASRC), which pretty much obviates the need (or benefit) to using external jitter reduction boxes under most circumstances, and so saves you the cost of buying one. In addition, since you can switch it easily on and off, you can compare the sound "with" and "without", or even decide whether you prefer the difference with individual selections. (I do have to count it as a down-side that the Monarchy costs about as much as the entire XDA-2...) There is a very effective simple solution for jitter reduction. Monarchy Audio makes a device called DIP which takes the digital signal from other CD players and corrects the errors and sends that signal to DAC or any other digital input. I own three. It also boosts the outgoing signal to 5V if I am not mistaken. My CDs have never sounded better. DIP received many accolades in audio circles including some reviewers in Stereophile magazine. Check their website www.monarchyaudio.com |
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Post by garbulky on Apr 2, 2014 10:14:19 GMT -5
How come that ERC 3 and DC1 almost sound the same in sound quality? Because they are both pretty good and SOMEWHAT similar in circuitry? Pick one that you would use and send the other one back. For instance if you want to watch movies with it, or connect your computer, keep the DC-1 Another reason is one's setup and room, if it's not resolving enough, placed wrong, too much room interference, wrong listening position, etc can all obscure finer details. Or....they can actually perform in an identical way  Have you tried connecting the DC-1 directly to the amplifier bypassing the XSP-1? Do you notice any difference in sound? |
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Post by repeetavx on Apr 2, 2014 11:13:30 GMT -5
How come that ERC 3 and DC1 almost sound the same in sound quality? The ERC-1 is not internally balanced. The single ended signal is converted to balanced just before the balanced output connectors. The DC-1 converts digital in the DACs to a balanced signal. Then stays balanced internally all the way through to its balanced outputs. If your using the RCA outputs, then your doing the same thing to the signal externally that the ERC-3 is doing internally. To get the full effect of the DC-1, you need to keep the signal balanced all the way through to the amplifiers. Yes, the XSP-1 is balanced all the way through it. Using the RCA outputs of the ERC-3 should yield the same quality as using the converted to balanced outputs, as long as the run is short. |
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Post by rod on Apr 2, 2014 21:14:17 GMT -5
How come that ERC 3 and DC1 almost sound the same in sound quality? Because they are both pretty good and SOMEWHAT similar in circuitry? Pick one that you would use and send the other one back. For instance if you want to watch movies with it, or connect your computer, keep the DC-1 Another reason is one's setup and room, if it's not resolving enough, placed wrong, too much room interference, wrong listening position, etc can all obscure finer details. Or....they can actually perform in an identical way Have you tried connecting the DC-1 directly to the amplifier bypassing the XSP-1? Do you notice any difference in sound? I don't think I like the sound quality of DC 1 when it is directly connected to amps. It seems that there is a need of bass adjustment. Where as if it is connected to XSP 1, you can feel the wonder of its soundstage. I will keep both of them ( DC1 and ERC-3 ) because they are really great and difference makers in my system specially the DC 1... You can only hear the difference DC1 and ERC 3 if you listen to mellow songs or any songs that will make you fall asleep at night. I could say that ERC-3 is a little bit refined or defined than DC1. But DC is fantastic if you love to listen to James Taylor, Jim Croce or any country songs... |
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Post by rod on Apr 2, 2014 21:33:47 GMT -5
How come that ERC 3 and DC1 almost sound the same in sound quality? The ERC-1 is not internally balanced. The single ended signal is converted to balanced just before the balanced output connectors. The DC-1 converts digital in the DACs to a balanced signal. Then stays balanced internally all the way through to its balanced outputs. If your using the RCA outputs, then your doing the same thing to the signal externally that the ERC-3 is doing internally. To get the full effect of the DC-1, you need to keep the signal balanced all the way through to the amplifiers. Yes, the XSP-1 is balanced all the way through it. Using the RCA outputs of the ERC-3 should yield the same quality as using the converted to balanced outputs, as long as the run is short. I guess I will leave that ERC 3 stay connected to XSP 1 since they perfectly sound the same anyway. But I will also keep ERC 3 connected to DC 1 just in case I want to go to that route once in a while... |
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Post by rod on Apr 7, 2014 17:19:56 GMT -5
well I am very much satisfied with the trio ( ERC 3 to DC1 to XSP 1 or ERC 3 to XSP 1 ). I don't regret having ERC 3 although it sounds the same as DC 1. As a matter of fact, ERC 1 is as great as ERC 3 if both of them are directly connected to DC 1. DC 1 is awesome because its sound quality is extremely noticeable then XDA 2. Just to let you know that I have XDA 2 too so I can compare it with DC 1. And DC 1 has a very high volume than XDA 2. But ERC 3 has the same sound quality performance has DC 1... The only thing I don't like in ERC 3 is that it has a little bit noise coming form the right side of the front panel. You can hear the machine spinning up to 2 inches away from the CD opening... But I don't put my ears that closed to ERC 3 every time I want to listen to the music anyway so why bother.... hahaha... For your own info, I got my ERC 3 last week only... On the other hand, DC 1 has a never ending warmness on the right top side that makes me a little bit upset because none of my emo gear has that kind of behavior...
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Post by garbulky on Apr 7, 2014 19:08:05 GMT -5
well I am very much satisfied with the trio ( ERC 3 to DC1 to XSP 1 or ERC 3 to XSP 1 ). I don't regret having ERC 3 although it sounds the same as DC 1. As a matter of fact, ERC 1 is as great as ERC 3 if both of them are directly connected to DC 1. DC 1 is awesome because its sound quality is extremely noticeable then XDA 2. Just to let you know that I have XDA 2 too so I can compare it with DC 1. And DC 1 has a very high volume than XDA 2. But ERC 3 has the same sound quality performance has DC 1... The only thing I don't like in ERC 3 is that it has a little bit noise coming form the right side of the front panel. You can hear the machine spinning up to 2 inches away from the CD opening... But I don't put my ears that closed to ERC 3 every time I want to listen to the music anyway so why bother.... hahaha... For your own info, I got my ERC 3 last week only... On the other hand, DC 1 has a never ending warmness on the right top side that makes me a little bit upset because none of my emo gear has that kind of behavior... Yeah the top right does get hot. It's likely that nice torroidal power supply or capacitors. It's perfectly normal and is designed for that. For instance the XPA-1 L and XPA-1 gen 2 amplifier has a good amount of class A power in it and class A power means HOT so they will get nice and warm. They will get a whole lot hotter than the DC-1.... All perfectly normal behavior (it won't break because of it). BTW it is interesting how you noticed a nice difference with the DC-1 connected to the XSP-1. This is exactly what I was hoping to hear from you. My friend has the XSP-1 and I may get to try it out someday. I remember trying the USP-1 and remembered how nice the sound was so I'm hoping the XSP-1 will be more of that nice sound. |
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Post by rod on Apr 8, 2014 16:45:31 GMT -5
Well to my mind, DC 1 and XSP 1 is a great combo. You will do appreciate the sound quality more if your DC 1 is directly connected to XSP 1. Its soundstage is unbelievable and its sound quality is extremely noticeable. My setup is that I have my XSP 1 connected to my two subs ( L and R ) and connected to XPA 2 and my two emo players ERC 1 and 3 are both connected to XSP 1 and these payers are connected to my DC 1 too... You will love the combo between XSP 1 and DC 1 and wont regret having them in your setup... Give them a try...
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Excellent explanation...... (of course I have one or two minor things to add) 
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