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Post by Chuck Elliot on Mar 20, 2014 23:39:43 GMT -5
I’ve broached this subject before, but I thought I might try a more complete reasoning and search out other’s opinions.
In the current lineup of Emotiva products, the analog people have the XSP-1 as their front end. The more mixed crowd will soon have the XMC-1 to serve this purpose. For others the current DACs can be used standalone or as a front-end to the other 2.
When used as a standalone direct to a power amplifier there are some missing items. Primarily this is bass management and DRC.
I think the XDA-3 should be a more fully featured pre along with being a DAC. I don’t care about analog input sources. If I wanted that then the XMC-1 would be my desired product as its DAC should be at parity with other products.
This should be a 2-channel product with the Stereo Dirac DRC, independent sub bass management and precision gain control. All DRC is done in the digital domain before the DAC conversion.
I’d sign up for this product sight unseen and I wouldn’t expect it to be cheap.
We’re in a digital domain now, like it or not!
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Post by rocky500 on Mar 20, 2014 23:58:54 GMT -5
I’ve broached this subject before, but I thought I might try a more complete reasoning and search out other’s opinions. We’re in a digital domain now, like it or not! I still have a turntable as I still find it just that little better when I want to sit down and get swept away in my music. What would be nice for the XDA-3 would be to find out if all the huge marketing effort by PS Audio with there Dac has any merit. You just have to read there page on it and sounds wonderful. Hopefully it half lives up to what they say it will be. www.psaudio.com/products/audio/media-players/perfectwave-directstream-dac/ If it does, then a XDA-3 that is able to work like there new directstream would be great. No PCM converter, just upsample all PCM to DSD and output it with a simple low pass filter. I am not interested in DSD files just how they mention that all my Flac and normal PCM files will be greatly improved using there system. Also Chuck, I am not sure I would want all those options you list as it would push up the price of the Dac considerably and if we have a XMC-1 already( or any good preamp), then it could be waisted. |
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Post by garbulky on Mar 21, 2014 3:09:33 GMT -5
I too wouldn't really be interested in those options. Though I can see your reasoning for them. For some people a subwoofer output would be nice.
I would personally like a dual DAC chip like the DC-1. And I think it would be nice if they released a no holds barred DAC only product - no volume control, nothing else. Just a standalone DAC. But honestly I could live with a DC-1 in an XDA form factor.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Mar 21, 2014 5:41:53 GMT -5
I too wouldn't really be interested in those options. Though I can see your reasoning for them. For some people a subwoofer output would be nice. I would personally like a dual DAC chip like the DC-1. And I think it would be nice if they released a no holds barred DAC only product - no volume control, nothing else. Just a standalone DAC. But honestly I could live with a DC-1 in an XDA form factor. You're right that a standalone DAC is still needed by some and what I purpose is probably beyond the XDA-3, but I still think it is a good product idea! |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Mar 21, 2014 9:53:12 GMT -5
I also look forward to the XDA-2's replacement, though I admit a strong possibility the XMC-1 may meet my needs. I'd want the form factor, current features and inputs of the XDA-2, plus the analog and sound quality of the DC-1. I'd also agree with adding bass management similar to the XSP-1 but with a better implementation - preferably controlled via the remote - but at least something exact and repeatable (the 'screw slot' controls are difficult to adjust and setting the controls at a specific frequency is pretty much hit and miss). I'd want to see these improvements in a XSP-2 type product as well.
I think the analog is important for those who want a turntable or HT bypass and possibly an easily accessed unity gain setting could be added. As for room correction I'd prefer to see that in a separate unit, again same form factor. A two channel RC with bypass that could be used in conjuction with this new XDA product, the XSP-1, or really any stereo preamp could be very useful.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Mar 21, 2014 11:16:54 GMT -5
One of the existing DACs (Fig 1) can certainly be used with a couple of modular additions. The digital source can be pre-processed by a DRC system such as the coming miniDSP Dirac product or a possible product from Emotiva. Unless you want to go through a second ADC/DAC the bass management unit must be analog. Even with the XSP-1 the setup of this management is difficult as there is no control of the crossover slope or gain ratio between main and sub. Sometimes this needs to be a dissimilar slope. Fig 2 is the unit I purpose. Both mains and subs have their own DAC. The DSP/DRC section takes over as the crossover processor. The Volume Gain section controls not only the overall volume, but also the man/sub gain ratio. This is all under the control of the DSP and can be configured during the setup operation.  |
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Post by DYohn on Mar 21, 2014 12:02:59 GMT -5
I like the idea of a stereo digital preamp. Give it a built-in headphone amp and you have the heart of a killer office system.
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Mar 22, 2014 11:22:28 GMT -5
Well I guess I will be off to my own experiments. The miniDSP Dirac units are going to be announced next week. Regardless if the more complicated solution is warranted, I want to add this to my 2 channel system. Fig-1 illustrates this units insertion into my existing system. MiniDSP also makes a unit called the NanoDIGI. This unit takes a SPDIF signal and channels it to up to 4 different SPDIF outputs. HP/LP filters may be applied to each directed signals. I would use it to create a low pass and hi pass output and direct it to 2 XDA-2s. The XSP-1 would no longer be needed. I believe I can balance the lo/hi with either the gain control on my subs or setting a different volume level between the two XDA-2s. See Fig-2.  |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Mar 24, 2014 9:51:30 GMT -5
Well I guess I will be off to my own experiments. The miniDSP Dirac units are going to be announced next week. Regardless if the more complicated solution is warranted, I want to add this to my 2 channel system. Fig-1 illustrates this units insertion into my existing system. MiniDSP also makes a unit called the NanoDIGI. This unit takes a SPDIF signal and channels it to up to 4 different SPDIF outputs. HP/LP filters may be applied to each directed signals. I would use it to create a low pass and hi pass output and direct it to 2 XDA-2s. The XSP-1 would no longer be needed. I believe I can balance the lo/hi with either the gain control on my subs or setting a different volume level between the two XDA-2s. See Fig-2. Interesting ideas Chuck, you've thought a lot about the modules and their order, we'll want to hear how it works out. Will you control the volume with a single remote changing both XDA's (which should work)? The idea of adding DRC to a DAC makes me think maybe they should have a digital 'tape loop' where you could send the signal to an external processor while still in the digital domain. |
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Post by Chuck Elliot on Mar 26, 2014 5:48:36 GMT -5
miniDSP Dirac announced: Two versions this is the digital: MiniDSP Dirac |
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Post by eveningsky on Mar 26, 2014 16:32:27 GMT -5
I would also like to join in to this wish list of features for the XDA3:
I love the design of the XDA and its connnectivity and ease of use.
I would like a DC1 in XDA form and connectivity,
with 1/4 headphone jack
with DC1 converting processors
with the more capable preamp.
I find the basic physical design of the XDA simply brilliant and very useful for my needs.
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 26, 2014 19:35:15 GMT -5
In my view the XDA-3 should be a DAC, just a DAC, nothing else. The DC-1 DAC implementation in an XDA-2 box with Gen 2 appearance. All digital inputs supported, toslink, RCA, USB and HDMI. No volume control, no pre amp, no bass management, no headphone jack, etc. It just needs to be the best DAC that Emotiva can make within the target price range. Is someone wants a headphone amp then they can buy one, similarly a pre amp, Emotiva makes some great ones of those, for a volume control use a CF. I understand the temptation to make the XDA-3 into a "processor", but Emotiva has a UMC-200 for that right now and an XMC-1 on the way.
Personally I have no need for anything other than a DAC and if an XDA-3 is just that then I would buy one, but I'll pass on a feaux processor thanks very much.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by tjhenry on Mar 26, 2014 22:21:49 GMT -5
I'll submit my vote for basically a DC-1 in a full size box (XDA-2 size). I compared the XDA-2 and DC-1 directly in my system and really liked the sound of the DC-1. I'm still impressed by the performance of the DC-1, but I'd really like it in a 17" wide chassis. How about the standard black Emotiva chassis but keep the 2 knobs from the DC-1...maybe make them silver.
I love the performance of the DC-1 but wish the chassis was a more standard design. And yes, I would be willing to pay more for the bigger chassis.
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Post by Percussionista on Mar 28, 2014 11:09:58 GMT -5
Personally I have no need for anything other than a DAC and if an XDA-3 is just that then I would buy one, but I'll pass on a feaux processor thanks very much. Gary, I hope Emo comes out with a DAC for you - but not as an XDA-3, that's just not what that line is. Like others I want an XDA-3 that builds on the current XDA-2, by improving the DAC and offering integration into an HT situation, just like their other preamps in the analog domain (USP/XSP). I don't want to have to pay $2K (less discount) for an XMC-1 and get it in one box either  $2K XMC-1 for my home PC system, but UMC-200 for the HT? Just doesn't seem right! I'm still shying away from having to buy an XSP/USP just to get the HT integration too - XDA+XSP+UMC just seems like too many boxes to pepper my PC with. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 28, 2014 15:37:07 GMT -5
Personally I have no need for anything other than a DAC and if an XDA-3 is just that then I would buy one, but I'll pass on a feaux processor thanks very much. Gary, I hope Emo comes out with a DAC for you - but not as an XDA-3, that's just not what that line is. Like others I want an XDA-3 that builds on the current XDA-2, by improving the DAC and offering integration into an HT situation, just like their other preamps in the analog domain (USP/XSP). I don't want to have to pay $2K (less discount) for an XMC-1 and get it in one box either $2K XMC-1 for my home PC system, but UMC-200 for the HT? Just doesn't seem right! I'm still shying away from having to buy an XSP/USP just to get the HT integration too - XDA+XSP+UMC just seems like too many boxes to pepper my PC with. This is fundamentally a marketing decision not a technical one, it's ever so easy to get bogged down in a debate over features when the real decision is one of product positioning. My view is that Emotiva is a "separates" company and a continued push for more and more features to be included in the next edition of the XDA range moves further and further away from that basic philosophy. If I add up all the features that have been requested over the pages (and threads) of what the XDA-3 should be we end up at what is really a 2 channel XMC. If that's what people want then by all means satisfy it, but don't call it a DAC because it isn't. There are far more non DAC features (and hardware) than there are DAC features (and hardware). Hence it plainly wouldn't belong in the DA range, arguably it would fit far better into the MC or SP range. As a side effect to the push for more and more features, the cost of an XDA-3 must ultimately rise to pay for the engineering and hardware those features demand. With a DC-1 at $500 (a reduction on its launch price) I can't see an XDA-3 (with the requested features) for much less than $600. That's quite a cost for a DAC! It would almost definitely rule out the people who want just a DAC and there is no fall back in the Emotiva range (there is no UDA). Hence a loss of sales volume would inevitably follow, I for one don't ever see me needing (or even wanting) that style of DAC. Maybe that's ultimately the answer, split the DAC range, move the XDA-3 up in features (and price) and introduce, say, an XDA-1 Gen 2 or a UDA-1 that is just a DAC, a great DAC, but only a DAC, at a price that recognises that. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Percussionista on Mar 28, 2014 18:15:42 GMT -5
Gary, I hope Emo comes out with a DAC for you - but not as an XDA-3, that's just not what that line is.... This is fundamentally a marketing decision not a technical one, it's ever so easy to get bogged down in a debate over features when the real decision is one of product positioning.... Maybe that's ultimately the answer, split the DAC range, move the XDA-3 up in features (and price) and introduce, say, an XDA-1 Gen 2 or a UDA-1 that is just a DAC, a great DAC, but only a DAC, at a price that recognises that. Gary we are in total agreement. The XDA-1 was never just a DAC and I'm hoping they continue with the line as a digital "preamp". AND, many folks are looking for "just" a great DAC - a different product, which you and those other folks would grab up. Yep, it's marketing. Emo did say they were going to come out with more DAC products, so we wait and see. A 2-channel only version of the XMC-1 might appeal as a high-end version but I wonder if this would be cost competitive vs. the XMC-1. Coming out with too many products in the same product space takes up bandwidth for the manufacturer - so yup - it's a marketing decision about which products to offer. I would expect an XDA-3 that had HT-bypass to cost more than the XDA-2, but then, if I had to buy an XSP-1 or USP-2 just to get that function, I'd be shelling out a whole lotta more bucks, plus having yet another box. I do believe in separates, as does Emo, but there's a limit as to how far I want to see things split out. I really wanted to have the USB-DAC, plus high-end headphone output, so the XDA line was right for me - except for having no HT-bypass style of integration. There are many folks who are pleased as punch to just have a digital preamp, but unlike the USP/XSP lines, the XDA line has no HT-bypass (yet ;-)) So... let's hope the fine folks at Emo will satisfy both of our needs! |
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Post by brubacca on Apr 2, 2014 16:23:23 GMT -5
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Post by kkennally on Apr 3, 2014 10:29:26 GMT -5
I’ve broached this subject before, but I thought I might try a more complete reasoning and search out other’s opinions. We’re in a digital domain now, like it or not! I still have a turntable as I still find it just that little better when I want to sit down and get swept away in my music. What would be nice for the XDA-3 would be to find out if all the huge marketing effort by PS Audio with there Dac has any merit. You just have to read there page on it and sounds wonderful. Hopefully it half lives up to what they say it will be. www.psaudio.com/products/audio/media-players/perfectwave-directstream-dac/ If it does, then a XDA-3 that is able to work like there new directstream would be great. No PCM converter, just upsample all PCM to DSD and output it with a simple low pass filter. Also Chuck, I am not sure I would want all those options you list as it would push up the price of the Dac considerably and if we have a XMC-1 already( or any good preamp), then it could be waisted. You can use the RCA pre-outs to a subwoofer from the XDA-2. I have my XDA-2 running balanced cables direct to my XPA-200 leaving the RCA outs for a subwoofer if needed. All you would have to do is use the bass management in the sub to set the crossover freq. Right now I am going (when not testing the control freak) ERC-3 coax into XDA-2 running balanced to my XPA-200 into a pair of magnepan MMG's. I have been thinking of getting a sub to go with the MMG's and running it from the RCA outs on the XDA-2. |
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Post by Trey on May 22, 2014 11:56:12 GMT -5
I'd like an analog input like the DC-1 so I can connect my turntable. That's the only thing missing from the XDA-2 and preventing me upgrading from my XDA-1.
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Post by Bonzo on May 22, 2014 12:19:21 GMT -5
Maybe that's ultimately the answer, split the DAC range, move the XDA-3 up in features (and price) and introduce, say, an XDA-1 Gen 2 or a UDA-1 that is just a DAC, a great DAC, but only a DAC, at a price that recognises that. I was going to reply to another post above, but this one fits better. I totally agree. I want a standalone unit that is ONLY a DAC. No volume or headphone amp. When there wasn't a DC-1, okay. But now there is the DC-1, which is sized and outfitted for the PC/office system. The XDA series has always be sized for a stereo system rack. In that situation, most people already have some sort of pre-amp, and a separate headphone amp isn't necessary for most. For the people who want one, let them by a separate one. Having those things built in is totally pointless for my needs. They are a big chunk of the reason why I have not bought the XDA-2. Give me a great sounding DAC with lots of digital inputs and I'm good. Oh, almost forgot, one feature I'd personally like a new rack style DAC to have is a digital bypass output. This would help with installation, wiring options, and ergonomic use. Not a must, but it would be nice for flexibility. |
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$2K XMC-1 for my home PC system, but UMC-200 for the HT? Just doesn't seem right! I'm still shying away from having to buy an XSP/USP just to get the HT integration too - XDA+XSP+UMC just seems like too many boxes to pepper my PC with.
