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Post by dpohlman on Apr 27, 2014 8:01:12 GMT -5
I have already posted this in the XPA-2 area, but I wanted to also post it here to see if there were any other perspectives:
I just purchased a new pair of Revel Salon 2 speakers. I currently own two XPA-2 Gen 2s, so I am focused on deciding what approach to take regarding powering these hungry beasts.
The manual suggests these speaker can reach a load of 3.7 Ohms, so using the mono-block function on the XPA-2 Gen 2 amps seems risky given the fact that the amps are clearly rated specifically for 8 Ohms when using the mono function, and it seems like use below the 8 Ohm level is discouraged. As a result, I have set them up in a passive vertical bi-amp configuration (one amp per speaker - one channel for the lows, and one channel for the mids / highs). I had balanced Y adapters and I had two sets of high quality 3ft speaker cables for each speaker. These speakers are set up to be bi-amped with the terminal bridge straps removed.
Running these amps with these speakers in the mono-block mode concerns me - given that extreme clipping could cause damage to both the amps and potentially even to these $21,000 speakers. One question I have is related to what other people having experienced with a vertical bi-amp arrangement with speakers that have a difficult load profile? And I would be interested to see if others feel I am thinking about this load issue correctly?
Obviously, another possible option is to just sell my two XPA - 2 Gen-2s, and then purchase either two XPA-1 amps or purchase two XPR-1 amps. For those that have gone the mono-block path, I am also wondering which of the two (XPA or XPR) is most recommended and why?
Thank you for your thoughts in advance!
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Post by jlafrenz on Apr 27, 2014 8:19:10 GMT -5
You would be better off getting the XPA-1's or XPR-1's. A difficult load is a difficult load no matter if it is bi-amped or not. Personally, I wouldn't start off picking an amp and connecting it in a situation that puts it or the speakers at risk. The old saying, "Use the right tool for the job".
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 27, 2014 8:31:04 GMT -5
I must politely disagree with jlafrenz. Although the mono blocks might (might) be better in theory, you already own the XPA-2s, which are absolutely superb amplifiers.
If you vertically bi-amplify the speakers, then the vast majority of power supply capacitance is still available to the channel hooked up to the woofers (which is where all the current draw is). Although you won't have the absolute wattage that would be available with a mono-block, you never listen loudly enough to need that wattage anyway. Most listening is done at one watt or less. Think about that fact for a moment. Yes, you DO need voltage and current reserves for transients, but the XPA-2 is more powerful than its (steady state) ratings anyway.
If you didn't own an amplifier and wanted to choose one, then jlafrenz' advice might be the best. But since you already own two amplifiers that are more than sufficient to your needs, there is absolutely no need to spend any more money. That's my advice, and I'm sticking to it.
Now my advice (or jlafrenz') and a dollar will buy you a cup of McCoffee! LOL As I said in the other thread - I've never heard better than a vertically bi-amplified setup (and at the current time, I own BOTH mono and stereo amplifiers).
Boomzilla
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 8:42:02 GMT -5
Agree 100% - "As I said in the other thread - I've never heard better than a vertically bi-amplified setup (and at the current time, I own BOTH mono and stereo amplifiers)."
After I heard the "vertical bi-amping difference" in my system, there is no other way I will run my mains. Boom is giving the best advice here.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Apr 27, 2014 9:21:33 GMT -5
Even if you eventually decide you want to try one of the monoblocks you have the XPA-2s now, and vertically bi-amped your system must sound great. Why not enjoy it for a while the way it is and get familiar with it's character. We can always imagine what our systems might sound like with a change or tweak here and there, sometimes to the detriment of what we have now. If you setup your amps close to your speakers you could put your monoblocks in the same place should you someday decide to get them, at the most you've bought an extra set of Interconnects and speaker cables.
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 27, 2014 9:33:50 GMT -5
I ran a long (single) interconnect from the preamp to the location of the speaker & then used a splitter to feed that channel to both inputs of my stereo amp. The outputs of the stereo amp fed the bass & treble taps of the speaker using about 1.5 foot long speaker jumpers. WOW! I did like it!!  |
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Post by dpohlman on Apr 27, 2014 9:34:19 GMT -5
Based on the feedback from both threads I had initiated (XPA section and XPR section), I am going to stick with my XPA-2 Gen-2 Amps driving the Revel Salon 2s in a passive vertical bi-amped arrangement. I am extremely impressed with the clarity and imaging this combination is able to deliver. At this point, especially given my dedicated listening room size (14 X 12 foot), I don't really have any need for the additional power that might come from a pair of XPA-1 or XPR-1 amps.
However, I tend to like to try various options, so I could still see a pair of mono-blocks in my future. I could ultimately use either the XPA-2 Gen-2s either vertically bi-amped or in mono-block mode or the XPA-1 or XPR-1 amps to drive the Dali Euphonia MS5 main speakers in our theater. These are currently powered by a Lexicon 7 channel amp today, and I really think the mains need more power and headroom than this 175 watts per channel amp can deliver.
I sincerely appreciated all of the help and wonderful insight everyone provided. Thank you! - David
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Post by jlafrenz on Apr 27, 2014 9:38:45 GMT -5
I must politely disagree with jlafrenz. Although the mono blocks might (might) be better in theory, you already own the XPA-2s, which are absolutely superb amplifiers. If you vertically bi-amplify the speakers, then the vast majority of power supply capacitance is still available to the channel hooked up to the woofers (which is where all the current draw is). Although you won't have the absolute wattage that would be available with a mono-block, you never listen loudly enough to need that wattage anyway. Most listening is done at one watt or less. Think about that fact for a moment. Yes, you DO need voltage and current reserves for transients, but the XPA-2 is more powerful than its (steady state) ratings anyway. If you didn't own an amplifier and wanted to choose one, then jlafrenz' advice might be the best. But since you already own two amplifiers that are more than sufficient to your needs, there is absolutely no need to spend any more money. That's my advice, and I'm sticking to it. Now my advice (or jlafrenz') and a dollar will buy you a cup of McCoffee! LOL As I said in the other thread - I've never heard better than a vertically bi-amplified setup (and at the current time, I own BOTH mono and stereo amplifiers). Boomzilla Boom, you have a valid point here. If the OP is using the XPA-2 in a bi-amp configuration it would be able to handle the load. I see that it is a 6 ohm nominal load. My comment was more in the thought of using the XPA-2 in bridged mode vs. going with monoblocks. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Apr 27, 2014 9:47:05 GMT -5
Stereo amps do NOT do well in bridged mode unless driving speakers of unusually high impedance. Even then, they sometimes sound rough & grainy. If the absolute wattage were needed, then I agree with you jlafrenz - a mono amplifier is a MUCH better option than bridging a stereo one. I know that mono amplifiers have a strong fan base here on the Lounge, and I understand that sometimes (not always, but sometimes) there are imaging improvements to be had. For most, though, those imaging improvements can be had less expensively by buying a second stereo amp and vertically bi-amplifying the speakers. All this is my personal experience, and others should take it with the requisite grain of salt. Going from vertically bi-amplified XPA-2s to ANY pair of mono amplifiers, though, I wouldn't expect any improvement. And at this point, I'm sure that the mono-amp club will strongly disagree!  |
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Post by repeetavx on Apr 27, 2014 9:57:16 GMT -5
The only way I can think of to improve my system would be to change my vertically bi-amped XPA-2s for XPR-2s. Or maybe a pair of XPA-1s on each side or XPR-1s.
How much wattage is required is a function of not only volume preference, but room volume. It wasn't long ago that you could drive an auditorium with a thousand watts (XPR-1 or an XPA-2 bridged). Whether or not you can hear a different between fully balanced and single channel is a function of the other equipment in your system, and the environment.
The question I really want to ask is, are stereo amps used in vertical bi-amped configuration considered MonoBlocks?
So, I propose that since a two channel amp in a single chassis, is being purposed for one speaker. That we coin a new name for the configuration, MagnumBlocks.
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Post by dpohlman on Apr 27, 2014 10:19:01 GMT -5
If you are looking for a great option for custom balanced XLR Y-cables, I have a great option. I had Milian Acoustics custom make the balanced XLR - Y cables for my vertical bi-amp project. I have used them in the past for several other interconnect cables. They offer very fast turnaround, and they do excellent work. I think I paid about $70 per cable for the these XLR - Y cables in silver plated oxygen free high strand copper shielded custom colored sleeving and Neutrik plug ends. It was less than $200 for the pair even with overnight shipping If anyone is interested, their web site is www.milianacoustics.com and I think they are out of Chapel Hill, North Carolina. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2014 10:51:44 GMT -5
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Post by dpohlman on Apr 28, 2014 7:11:07 GMT -5
Has anyone on the forum had experience vertical bi-amping with (2) XPR-2 amps?
Maybe someone (even someone at Emotiva) has compared this approach with (2) XPR-1 amps?
I would welcome any insight.
I will eventually repurpose my XPA-2 Gen2 amps vertical bi-amped to the main (Dali Euphonia MS5 speakers) in my theater room. These seem under powered today being driven by two channels of a Lexicon 7 channel amp (7.1 all Dali Euphonia speaker configuration).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2014 9:26:34 GMT -5
I'm not really sure you would gain anything going to the XPR-1's unless you had a really large room. You could call Harman at 516-682-6438 and ask them directly about it.
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Post by novisnick on Apr 28, 2014 9:48:29 GMT -5
I've got my coffee, now, I can't speak about the XPA-2 or XPR-2 but I have bi-wired everyway from Tuesday. That is why I'm a MONOBLOCKS kind of guy.
These are the type of speaker still open to me because of the XPR-1 s power, dynamics and agility. I haven't stuck my head into this because I think anyone on this board already knows my opinion about multi channel amps being used for two channel music, for me and my ears, room etc, I don't care for it,,,,but ,,,each there own.
Just thought I'd let ya'll know that I'm still kicking and recruiting new members to the MONOBLOCKS Society.
CEO
Nick
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 28, 2014 21:53:09 GMT -5
I've got my coffee, now, I can't speak about the XPA-2 or XPR-2 but I have bi-wired everyway from Tuesday. That is why I'm a MONOBLOCKS kind of guy. These are the type of speaker still open to me because of the XPR-1 s power, dynamics and agility. I haven't stuck my head into this because I think anyone on this board already knows my opinion about multi channel amps being used for two channel music, for me and my ears, room etc, I don't care for it,,,,but ,,,each there own. Just thought I'd let ya'll know that I'm still kicking and recruiting new members to the MONOBLOCKS Society. CEO Nick Seriously Nick the amount of cross talk between channels in a good amp these days is below, way below, inaudible. Not that cross talk matters in a vertical bi amping situation, what inaudible amount there is is rendered even more inaudible by the cross overs. Vertical bi amping also matches the other advantages of mono blocks in proximaty location close to the speakers ie; short speaker cables. In fact with 2 pairs of cables it could be argued that a bi amped XPA-2 is superior. As for a bridged XPA-2, that's a monoblock by any definition. BTW, I'm a member of the Emotiva mono monoblocks club as I have one XPA-100 powering a sub woofer, so I'm more mono than you  Cheers Gary |
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Post by novisnick on Apr 28, 2014 22:55:19 GMT -5
Any definition does not include any speaker outside of 8 ohms, right?. Or did I miss something again?  ? Ya know at times I miss stuff. Did I mention cross talk lately?? I don't think so. : ) Nick |
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Post by deltadube on Apr 28, 2014 23:20:24 GMT -5
I've got my coffee, now, I can't speak about the XPA-2 or XPR-2 but I have bi-wired everyway from Tuesday. That is why I'm a MONOBLOCKS kind of guy. These are the type of speaker still open to me because of the XPR-1 s power, dynamics and agility. I haven't stuck my head into this because I think anyone on this board already knows my opinion about multi channel amps being used for two channel music, for me and my ears, room etc, I don't care for it,,,,but ,,,each there own. Just thought I'd let ya'll know that I'm still kicking and recruiting new members to the MONOBLOCKS Society. CEO Nick Seriously Nick the amount of cross talk between channels in a good amp these days is below, way below, inaudible. Not that cross talk matters in a vertical bi amping situation, what inaudible amount there is is rendered even more inaudible by the cross overs. Vertical bi amping also matches the other advantages of mono blocks in proximaty location close to the speakers ie; short speaker cables. In fact with 2 pairs of cables it could be argued that a bi amped XPA-2 is superior. As for a bridged XPA-2, that's a monoblock by any definition. BTW, I'm a member of the Emotiva mono monoblocks club as I have one XPA-100 powering a sub woofer, so I'm more mono than you Cheers Gary nothing like membership in the monoblock society Gary!!! you can vertical bi amp an xpa 2 but it still wont be a fully balanced quad differential signal!!!!! if you use the xpa 1 with its quad binding post very easy to use 2 sets on speaker cables as well and no rca y adapter needed to save some cash!!! the big power reserves of the xpa 1 and the quad differential signal path is by far superior to the xpa 2 imho.. cheers |
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 28, 2014 23:30:45 GMT -5
Let me start off with I'm having fun with you, laugh along Any definition does not include any speaker outside of 8 ohms, right?. There are plenty of monoblocks that handle only one range of impedance and quite a few that have separate tapping for each impedance range, so we can't really exclude an XPA-2 bridged unless we exclude all of the others. Me too  Did I say you did, or perhaps more accurately did I quote you? There are two main advantages to monoblocks, closely related, absolutely zero cross talk and the ability to physically separate them and locate them close to speakers (ie; facilitate short speaker cables). There may be power supply advantages with monoblocks, but it's far from uncommon for a stereo/multichannel power amp to have a larger power supply than a monoblock (eg; an XPA-2 has a larger power supply than an XPA-100, an XPR-2 has a larger power supply than an XPA-1). To re ask your question, what have I missed? Cheers Gary |
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Post by Gary Cook on Apr 28, 2014 23:44:35 GMT -5
nothing like membership in the monoblock society Gary!!! you can vertical bi amp an xpa 2 but it still wont be a fully balanced quad differential signal!!!!! if you use the xpa 1 with its quad binding post very easy to use 2 sets on speaker cables as well and no rca y adapter needed to save some cash!!! the big power reserves of the xpa 1 and the quad differential signal path is by far superior to the xpa 2 imho.. cheers So in order to be classed as a monoblock it has to be "fully balanced quad differential"? Does that mean that an XPA-100 isn't a monoblock? Or does it mean that an XPA-1 with input via RCA's is no longer a monoblock as it's not using its "fully balanced quad differential" circuitry?
Power reserves I dealt with in the post above, one example was an XPR-2 which arguably has more "power reserves" than an XPA-1, does that make it a "better" monoblock?
As for "saving some cash" an XPR-2 costs less than 2 x XPA-1's
Cheers Gary
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? Ya know at times I miss stuff.
