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Post by bluescale on Aug 25, 2014 19:37:09 GMT -5
ScudDawg, How do you know it is working? There is no way to measure that it is working, because the test tones when in Dual Mono Subwoofer don't work properly. I have done what you have done, but I can only Hope that it is working properly. Shouldn't the Dual Mono Subwoofer have a combined output test tone to set the level? Most if not all Emotiva competitors have this option, which is logical. It's easy enough to tell if it's working. Get a hold of a subwoofer calibration tone (either from REW or from any calibration disk), turn off one sub and test, turn off the other sub and test, compare results. That's said, I agree 100% with you that there should be a combined signal built in. It seems like an oversight to me that there isn't one. |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 25, 2014 19:58:36 GMT -5
That's said, I agree 100% with you that there should be a combined signal built in. It seems like an oversight to me that there isn't one. I think Lonnie mentioned in the bug thread that they found the problem and it will be fixed with the next firmware rev. |
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Post by bluescale on Aug 31, 2014 22:31:17 GMT -5
That's said, I agree 100% with you that there should be a combined signal built in. It seems like an oversight to me that there isn't one. I think Lonnie mentioned in the bug thread that they found the problem and it will be fixed with the next firmware rev. Based on your most recent post, it sound like this isn't in the works. Is anyone who is following this thread going to be at the next roadshow? We need to find someone willing to champion this for us. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Aug 31, 2014 22:46:30 GMT -5
It is pretty simple.
Dual mono with independent level and distance and one combined EQ.
If they don't feel that is important, then it should be stated why and also how Dirac will handle the EQ with the current config.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Aug 31, 2014 23:29:33 GMT -5
I think Lonnie mentioned in the bug thread that they found the problem and it will be fixed with the next firmware rev. Based on your most recent post, it sound like this isn't in the works. Is anyone who is following this thread going to be at the next roadshow? We need to find someone willing to champion this for us. Some confusion here, my post referred to the new 1.1 bug where there is no test tone in one channel when in dual mono, that's what's being fixed. In any case you're right, someone needs to write down what you want as a request and you all have to agree on it. If Lonnie can just read it then it relieves someone from having to explain it properly (maybe I did, maybe I didn't  ). You have to explain how you expect Dirac will deal with it too. This is probably something better talked about in a more peaceful place than the road show (like back at the office with the team), but Lonnie was very open to discussion, if someone goes knowing what and why he'll talk it out with them. You know the drill, you need to convince your boss this is important to enough people to spend the time doing it - and that it's the right thing to do. |
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Post by bluescale on Sept 1, 2014 2:33:31 GMT -5
Based on your most recent post, it sound like this isn't in the works. Is anyone who is following this thread going to be at the next roadshow? We need to find someone willing to champion this for us. Some confusion here, my post referred to the new 1.1 bug where there is no test tone in one channel when in dual mono, that's what's being fixed. Well, that bug, and what some of us are asking for are related, or at least conflated in some of our minds. It's definitely possible that I'm operating under a false principle. With that in mind, let me see if I can lay out exactly what I want. I'll ask bootman, igorzep and anyone else to chime in if I missed something. Here's what we need an answer to: 1. In dual mono mode, will Dirac issue unique test tones to each subwoofer for the purpose of setting distance and level independently for each sub? 2. In dual mono mode, will Dirac issue a simultaneous test tone from both subs for the sake of EQ/room correction? If these two criteria are met, I don't think it matters how it applies the necessary filters. I realize now that I've hung up on the fact that dual mono mode has independent EQ for each sub. As has been pointed out, independent EQ can be worked around by just copying the same settings into each subs' settings, and is perhaps a red herring. I think that's the point bootman was trying to make earlier in this thread. Again, I'd love to get input from Lonnie or KeithL or flak to see if they either clarify how it will work in the final form, or explain why all this is much ado about nothing. |
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Post by urwi on Sept 1, 2014 2:50:04 GMT -5
If someone has set up a double bass array he probably doesn't want Dirac to mess with delay and levels. Some confusion here, my post referred to the new 1.1 bug where there is no test tone in one channel when in dual mono, that's what's being fixed. Well, that bug, and what some of us are asking for are related, or at least conflated in some of our minds. It's definitely possible that I'm operating under a false principle. With that in mind, let me see if I can lay out exactly what I want. I'll ask bootman, igorzep and anyone else to chime in if I missed something. Here's what we need an answer to: 1. In dual mono mode, will Dirac issue unique test tones to each subwoofer for the purpose of setting distance and level independently for each sub? 2. In dual mono mode, will Dirac issue a simultaneous test tone from both subs for the sake of EQ/room correction? If these two criteria are met, I don't think it matters how it applies the necessary filters. I realize now that I've hung up on the fact that dual mono mode has independent EQ for each sub. As has been pointed out, independent EQ can be worked around by just copying the same settings into each subs' settings, and is perhaps a red herring. I think that's the point bootman was trying to make earlier in this thread. Again, I'd love to get input from Lonnie or KeithL or flak to see if they either clarify how it will work in the final form, or explain why all this is much ado about nothing. |
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Post by bluescale on Sept 1, 2014 7:42:37 GMT -5
If someone has set up a double bass array he probably doesn't want Dirac to mess with delay and levels. I'm not sure why that matters. Almost all of Emotiva's customers won't have a DBA configured. It's probably a good idea to cater to the larger population. |
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Post by flak on Sept 1, 2014 8:47:10 GMT -5
I don't know about the final XMC-1 configuration but as mentioned before Dirac does not do any kind of bass management, we only compensate each of the output channels in the system.
The manufacturers decide what these output channels actually are used for.
The subwoofers used in the system will be more well behaved as they are compensated with Dirac Live which is better than a PEQ for the known reasons.
Measuring 2 or more subwoofers simultaneously could make it hard to correct the impulse response (one speaker per output needed, or the measured impulse responses may look really weird).
Ciao, Flavio
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Sept 1, 2014 10:29:29 GMT -5
I don't know about the final XMC-1 configuration but as mentioned before Dirac does not do any kind of bass management, we only compensate each of the output channels in the system. The manufacturers decide what these output channels actually are used for. The subwoofers used in the system will be more well behaved as they are compensated with Dirac Live which is better than a PEQ for the known reasons. Measuring 2 or more subwoofers simultaneously could make it hard to correct the impulse response (one speaker per output needed, or the measured impulse responses may look really weird). Ciao, Flavio So just to make sure we are all on the same page base management aside, how does Dirac handle a dual sub setup (.2) like what is in the XMC? What can the customer expect from this treatment? Everything else I have seen available from Dirac only mentions a .1 or single mono sub in the literature. Thanks again for your time! |
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Post by urwi on Sept 1, 2014 11:23:59 GMT -5
Setting two subs to the same level and distance doesn't cater to the larger population either. Todd Welti has shown that these parameters can be used to optimize multiple subs. If someone has set up a double bass array he probably doesn't want Dirac to mess with delay and levels. I'm not sure why that matters. Almost all of Emotiva's customers won't have a DBA configured. It's probably a good idea to cater to the larger population. |
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Post by urwi on Sept 1, 2014 11:27:04 GMT -5
Flavio, you've said that Dirac Live doesn't do any kind of bass management. Does this mean it also does NOT set level and delay? I don't know about the final XMC-1 configuration but as mentioned before Dirac does not do any kind of bass management, we only compensate each of the output channels in the system. The manufacturers decide what these output channels actually are used for. The subwoofers used in the system will be more well behaved as they are compensated with Dirac Live which is better than a PEQ for the known reasons. Measuring 2 or more subwoofers simultaneously could make it hard to correct the impulse response (one speaker per output needed, or the measured impulse responses may look really weird). Ciao, Flavio |
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Post by novisnick on Sept 1, 2014 11:34:08 GMT -5
Pop thats a pretty good way to get a good idea...of course if you move one or both of the subs or anything else significant in the room like a sofa etc you will have to start again with the same process. see the subwoofer crawl reference to google for too Yeh wiz, true. But anytime you ( I ) make a change in my ( your) room, you (I) need to recalibrate for the most accurate response and best sound. Always have , even though it can get to be a pain!!, just have to do it!!! |
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Post by bluescale on Sept 1, 2014 12:19:57 GMT -5
Flavio, you've said that Dirac Live doesn't do any kind of bass management. Does this mean it also does NOT set level and delay? Dirac does set level and distance for all speakers. I know this from personal experience, as well as what Flak has said before. |
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Post by bluescale on Sept 1, 2014 13:53:42 GMT -5
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Post by urwi on Sept 1, 2014 15:56:06 GMT -5
So if Dirac isn't setting delay and level what other tool is doing that during the automated setup procedure? Flavio, you've said that Dirac Live doesn't do any kind of bass management. Does this mean it also does NOT set level and delay? Dirac does set level and distance for all speakers. I know this from personal experience, as well as what Flak has said before. |
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Post by bluescale on Sept 1, 2014 16:50:57 GMT -5
So if Dirac isn't setting delay and level what other tool is doing that during the automated setup procedure? I think you misread what I said. Dirac DOES set level and delay. The problem, as I see it, is that for dual subs, these need to be set individually. However, the tone for EQ filters need to be set as a combined signal. I have no idea how Emotiva and Dirac can issue unique tones for one part of the test, and then issue a combined tone for another. The more I think through this, the more I understand why this is so hard for Emotiva and Dirac to get working to our specification. I wonder if this work around will work: 1. Set mode to Stereo subwoofer 2. Have Dirac complete the distance and level calibration 3. Set mode to Dual Mono subwoofer 4. Have Dirac complete the EQ It depends on whether or not mode can be changed in mid calibration. My hope is that since the Dirac measurement and filter generation all happens on the PC, it won't notice what's happening in the unit. |
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Post by smfins on Sept 1, 2014 21:22:05 GMT -5
Setting two subs to the same level and distance doesn't cater to the larger population either. Todd Welti has shown that these parameters can be used to optimize multiple subs. I'm not sure why that matters. Almost all of Emotiva's customers won't have a DBA configured. It's probably a good idea to cater to the larger population. Basically the way the XMC-1 should handle dual subs is the same Way The processors with Audyysey XT32 do. Audyysey XT32 with the dual sub management is absolutely incredible in the job it does. What I'm expecting from my xmc-1 once it arrives is to do a better job with room correction, but if it doesn't handle sual subs properly, thats not going to be possible. |
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Post by urwi on Sept 2, 2014 1:59:31 GMT -5
Yes indeed I've misread your post. Sorry for that. I don't see how Dirac Live could work with dual mono subs. They probably would need to make changes to their software to suport that case, i.e. set level and delay for each sub then EQ as one unit. So if Dirac isn't setting delay and level what other tool is doing that during the automated setup procedure? I think you misread what I said. Dirac DOES set level and delay. The problem, as I see it, is that for dual subs, these need to be set individually. However, the tone for EQ filters need to be set as a combined signal. I have no idea how Emotiva and Dirac can issue unique tones for one part of the test, and then issue a combined tone for another. The more I think through this, the more I understand why this is so hard for Emotiva and Dirac to get working to our specification. I wonder if this work around will work: 1. Set mode to Stereo subwoofer 2. Have Dirac complete the distance and level calibration 3. Set mode to Dual Mono subwoofer 4. Have Dirac complete the EQ It depends on whether or not mode can be changed in mid calibration. My hope is that since the Dirac measurement and filter generation all happens on the PC, it won't notice what's happening in the unit. |
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Post by urwi on Sept 2, 2014 2:02:36 GMT -5
I'd like Dirac to do more than what Audyssey is doing. Todd Welti has shown that better results can be had from the same setup. See SFM as described in www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cfm?ID=13680&name=harmanSetting two subs to the same level and distance doesn't cater to the larger population either. Todd Welti has shown that these parameters can be used to optimize multiple subs. Basically the way the XMC-1 should handle dual subs is the same Way The processors with Audyysey XT32 do. Audyysey XT32 with the dual sub management is absolutely incredible in the job it does. What I'm expecting from my xmc-1 once it arrives is to do a better job with room correction, but if it doesn't handle sual subs properly, thats not going to be possible. |
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). You have to explain how you expect Dirac will deal with it too. This is probably something better talked about in a more peaceful place than the road show (like back at the office with the team), but Lonnie was very open to discussion, if someone goes knowing what and why he'll talk it out with them. You know the drill, you need to convince your boss this is important to enough people to spend the time doing it - and that it's the right thing to do.
