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Post by brubacca on Aug 22, 2014 7:42:58 GMT -5
I have a Rogue Audio Integrated amp. I have just ordered two different input tubes to try. I ordered a Mullard New Old Stock and a tube brand called Cifte also new old stock. Which should I try first?
The Mullard has a reputation for having for real midrange warmth, while the Cifte seems to be more musical and more extended in the treble.. (All you solid state people can start laughing now)
Which tube would be best for god ole grunge rock type music?
(Please don't lecture on SS accuracy vs tube, I like the fact that I can change the sound a bit. I like the coloration)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 7:56:44 GMT -5
I don't care for the Mullards. Too much warmth and body in the mids. But you might like it. You will not know until you test both and see which one your ears will respond to better. That is the fun part. Tube rolling is fun and you get to experiment with various tubes to find that perfect match for your system, and ears. So far my favorite is the Tesla ECC802S. I'm currently using the Tungsram ECC82 to see how they sound. I have about 75 hours on them. Not bad. In the beginning the mids were kind of recessed and the low end was flabby. Now as they are getting broke in the sound is getting better, and more balanced.
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kazoo
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Post by kazoo on Aug 22, 2014 8:14:43 GMT -5
I would try the Mullard first. But you need to try both of them and see which one you like more. Also I am a fan of the Clear Top RCA 12AU7s, so give that one a shot when you can.
John
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Post by brubacca on Aug 22, 2014 8:22:33 GMT -5
Kazoo- Actually I have a Clear Top RCA in there right now. I did a factory visit/tour at Rogue and they suggested the Clear Tops. In fact, I have them in the pre-amp tube and 12AU7 drivers. I see you are running some Decware Product. Is the DC-1 a good match with the decware tubes?
Warped Mind, I remember you posting about your tubes for the Perseus before. Thanks!
My issue is that rock music just doesn't kick on my system now. I am not feeling it. My whole system sounds great with everything other than rock. When I put in Pearl Jam for example.
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Post by jedinite24 on Aug 22, 2014 8:27:28 GMT -5
Hi Check out the 12AU7 reviews here: www.dougstubes.com/preamp-tubes/12au7-ecc82-5814.htmlDoug sells tubes to the audiophile and to the pro rocker as well. My preference for 12AU7 tubes for rock are: JJ 12AU7 standard pin, Sylvania JAN 6189 and Hewlett Packard labeled 5963 tubes. As for the tubes to try first I would say the Mullard 12AU7s. When you figure things out let me know. I have a bunch of 12AU7s and wouldn't mind trading. |
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Post by yves on Aug 22, 2014 8:42:16 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2014 9:03:47 GMT -5
Another that is my 2nd favorite is the RCA 6189 black plates. The Tesla And RCA are both great for hard rock, and metal. Warped Mind, I remember you posting about your tubes for the Perseus before. Thanks! My issue is that rock music just doesn't kick on my system now. I am not feeling it. My whole system sounds great with everything other than rock. When I put in Pearl Jam for example. |
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kazoo
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Post by kazoo on Aug 22, 2014 10:02:28 GMT -5
Kazoo- Actually I have a Clear Top RCA in there right now. I did a factory visit/tour at Rogue and they suggested the Clear Tops. In fact, I have them in the pre-amp tube and 12AU7 drivers. I see you are running some Decware Product. Is the DC-1 a good match with the decware tubes? The DC-1 is a great match with the Decware amps. I switched a few things around, I was running it at home with my two channel setup but now I am using the DC-1 at work with my headphone setup. Its nice being able to play HD files on my headphones. For the price and sound the DC-1 is hard to beat. Now Emotiva needs to make a DC-2 that does DSD files. The RCA clear top is a nice tube. Perfect, now you can see how it compares to the ones you just ordered. Please let us know what you think between them. John |
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Aug 22, 2014 10:02:56 GMT -5
Genelec Gold Lions or Telefunken gray plates.
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Post by brubacca on Aug 22, 2014 13:54:37 GMT -5
I have had the Clear Tops in for 8 months. Whatever tube I put in next I'll leave in at least six. I am getting ready to change my source so I'll need time to reexamine the system.
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Post by milsap195 on Aug 22, 2014 14:24:38 GMT -5
I have been running PS vane ax7and ux7 for quite a while in my Vincent's and Carvers. They have a nice balanced tone to them. They are a little pricy at $100 a pair but sound great!
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Post by yves on Aug 23, 2014 7:12:54 GMT -5
I have been running PS vane ax7and ux7 for quite a while in my Vincent's and Carvers. They have a nice balanced tone to them. They are a little pricy at $100 a pair but sound great! 99$ for a matched pair with free shipping is chump's change if you consider just how terrific they sound.  |
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emovac
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Post by emovac on Aug 28, 2014 21:29:59 GMT -5
Mullards sound nice in 6DJ8 - I really like Amperex Bugle Boys in 6DJ8 as well. 12AU7 can found in that variant as well.
Look around old junk military and electronics surplus stores. My brother scored me several Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 for $1 each. You have to dig through the bins, but some good finds are to be had.
My 6DJ8s had been cannibalized from oscilloscopes, and had high emissions.
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Post by brubacca on Aug 30, 2014 7:41:28 GMT -5
I put in the Mullard to start. In my reverse psychology I figured that I may not like this as much by the descriptions. First impression is really good. I think I understand why people want this tube. Even rocks out enough so far. Needs time to burn in. I would say this initially I like it more than the RCA Clear Top.
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Post by brubacca on Sept 12, 2014 14:23:59 GMT -5
The Mullards have a glorious midrange, but seemed to have very recessed bass. Just installed the CIFTE tubes and they sound good to start. More bass than the Mullards and a nice balance. Only been two days so need time to sort it out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2014 15:19:12 GMT -5
Nice. Let us know the results after you've put some hours on the tubes. I've wanted to give them a try. Re-branded Mazda tubes that have a nice three dimensional sound stage with clarity. I was going back and forth between the Cifte and Tungsram, and eventually had to flip a coin for my decision. Tube rolling is an addiction as well. The Mullards have a glorious midrange, but seemed to have very recessed bass. Just installed the CIFTE tubes and they sound good to start. More bass than the Mullards and a nice balance. Only been two days so need time to sort it out. |
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Post by Nodscene on Sept 12, 2014 16:11:27 GMT -5
I probably won't be much help in this thread as I use 6DJ8/6922 etc etc and haven't rolled too many tubes just yet. Although I did just place an order today for a 6DJ8 "Butt Ugly" Amperex Bugleboy and a 1970's 6DJ8 Mullard (made in GB) so I can't wait to hear them both. Trying to tame my M-Lore's as they are too bright for me, thankfully only with music (I'm highly sensitive...read headaches.. to highs even with some silk dome tweekers). Vonnie123, if you ever have any extra's or want to trade (I have very limited tubes right now) let me know! If anyone is interested I bought my tubes from Brent at Audiotubes.com. Great guy and was willing to take time and make recommendations etc even though I only planned to buy 1 inexpensive tube. He has tons of tubes as well so highly recommended! Oh yeah, he also gave me a discount for some unknown reason....could be I overpaid but my math looks correct. Cant wait until I have some real spending money haha. Hopefully this thread continues as I find this an interesting topic. Mullards sound nice in 6DJ8 - I really like Amperex Bugle Boys in 6DJ8 as well. 12AU7 can found in that variant as well. Look around old junk military and electronics surplus stores. My brother scored me several Amperex Bugle Boy 6DJ8 for $1 each. You have to dig through the bins, but some good finds are to be had. My 6DJ8s had been cannibalized from oscilloscopes, and had high emissions. |
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emovac
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Post by emovac on Sept 12, 2014 22:58:20 GMT -5
I think you'll like the bugle boys. If you know anyone with a tube tester, check the emissions. In a pre-amp/tube buffer, 6DJ8s will last a few thousand hours. 6922s a bit longer, 7308s longer yet. AH! Njob 4000 mod CD player uses them too. Had an AH! CD player before a power source problem nuked it. My Audio Horizons Tube Buffer eats a set of tubes after about 12-18 months of heavy use. You can also use NOS 7DJ8/PCC88. (Check out the MATSUSHITA / NATIONAL PCC88 / 7DJ8 page) They are far cheaper and suitable for most all 6DJ8 applications. Kevin Deal runs Upscale Audio near Upland, California. Been to his place, and he has about any tube you can think of. Lots of New-Old-Stock (NOS). The guy is a tube hunter. Prices aren't cheap, but he has a great selection of tubes in stock, and provides emissions numbers on how well the tubes tested. Personally, I have a 1950s TV7/A tube tester, so the junk store finds work for me to establish emission strength, gas issues, and matching. www.upscaleaudio.com/6922/ |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 13, 2014 0:32:25 GMT -5
I'm going to stick my nose in here and tell you a few secrets about tube rolling. They'll save some of you a heap of money, let you have a lot more fun (without missing any meals), and undoubtedly piss off a few people. What I'm going to tell you are really simple historical and technical facts about tubes. (They aren't really secrets - it's just that your average discussion about tube rolling these days has an eery resemblance to listening to a couple of kindergarten kids discussing what brand of chickens work better for voodoo spells. And, yes, all the smarmy insinuations you can read into that metaphor were intentional.  ) If you want to check any or all of what I'm telling you, then go on eBay and buy some actual technical information manuals about tubes. You can buy a vintage copy of the RCA Receiving Tube Manual, or the Sylvania equivalent, for about $10 in so/so condition. That's the book, written by the folks who invented and manufactured most of those tubes, which explains how they work, and what parameters are really important, and shows engineers how to design products that use them. Odds are the guys who wrote it know way more about their tubes than the guy trying to get you to pay $100 for a NOS specimen of one that sold for $2.29 at your local hardware store fifty years ago. If you search carefully, you can find all sorts of cool resources, including design and production manuals, which contain real information about tubes - instead of folklore.  Fact #1: Tubes were intended to be identical and interchangeable. The reason you have designations like "12AU7" is because you are supposed to be able to plug any 12AU7 into any socket labelled "12AU7". Back when tubes were current technology they really were considered interchangeable - sort of like 60 watt light bulbs. You asked for "a 12AU7" and the guy gave you whichever brand he happened to have. It you asked for a particular brand, it was probably because you wanted the color of the writing, and the cute little picture, to match the other ones in your unit - nobody much imagined that they sounded different. There were slight differences, and some manufacturers claimed slightly better specs, but the differences were pretty slight - and maybe not even true. The main specifications are spelled out by that designation number. A 12AU7 has a certain gain in a given circuit; if you want more gain you don't look for a 12AU7 that's out of spec - you use a 12AX7; if you want less gain, then you go to a 12AT7. Just like anything else, each manufacturer had some claim to being better - brand xx said they were a dB quieter; brand yy said they were less sensitive to vibration - but most of the differences were very small, and had very little to do with sound quality. (For example, by fiddling with the shape and size of the coating particles on the cathode, you can slightly alter the character of the hiss that the tube produces as background noise - which you shouldn't be able to hear anyway. Whole white papers have been written about which shape of particle can reduce the hiss by one or two dB.... but we are talking one or two dB here....) And, yes, some premium brands cost more - for real or perceived improvements. A cheap RCA 12AU7 was probably $2.50, while an "expensive premium import" Telefunken cost $3.75 . Fact #2: The actual differences between tubes, where they actually exist at all, are limited to a few simple electrical characteristics. And, while a really good design would be totally immune to these slight variations, different tubes may indeed sound noticeably different in certain circuits. The characteristics of the cathode coating can affect life expectancy, and have some slight effect on how much hiss there is and precisely what it sounds like. The spacing between the electrodes inside the tube affects the capacitance between them, which can affect the frequency response of that tube - in some circuits. The geometry of the electrodes could result in slightly better linearity - which means better distortion numbers (although very few manufacturers claimed anything significant there). Better support for the electrodes can reduce microphonics (so you're less likely to hear a twanging noise in your speakers if you tap on your preamp tubes). Remember, though, that the important electrical characteristics are pretty well spelled out for a 12AU7, so no 12AU7 can be very far from the spec and still work in 12AU7 circuits. if it was too different - even better - then it wouldn't be a 12AU7 any more. Fact #3: Most if not all of the differences you hear between tubes are caused by slight differences in interelectrode capacitance and gain interacting with elements of the specific circuit in which the tube is used to produce slight variations in frequency response. The gain and capacitance interact with the rest of the circuit to produce slight variations in frequency response and distortion - and the variations in frequency response are most of what you hear as "warmer" of "smoother". Now... HERE'S THE BIG SECRET.....  In general, there are almost always no such things as "better sounding tubes". HOWEVER, THERE MAY BE CERTAIN BRANDS OR STYLES OF A GIVEN TUBE THAT SOUND BETTER - TO YOUR PERSONAL TASTES - IN A CERTAIN SPECIFIC PIECE OF EQUIPMENT. Now, think about that one for a while...... That tube they're trying to get you to pay $150 for isn't any better than one you can buy on eBay for $5. ( But it might sound better to certain people, when you use it in a specific model of preamp or headphone amp.) My point here is that it ISN'T the tube that's better; it just happens to work a tiny bit better in a certain product. Now, here's where you can save that money I promised. THAT $150 TUBE THAT SUPPOSEDLY SOUNDS WONDERFUL IN THE REVIEWER'S MODEL 1 HEADPHONE AMP JUST MIGHT SOUND LIKE CRAP IN YOUR MODEL 2 AMP, AND THE $5 ONE THAT SOUNDS LIKE CRAP IN HIS MIGHT SOUND WONDERFUL IN YOURS. This is because the whole idea that certain tubes are wondrously better sounding than others is a silly myth. The reality is that the slight differences between different brands and styles of tubes interact with the slight differences in tube circuits to produce slightly different results. Whether a certain brand or style of tube sounds better in a certain amp or preamp is actually pure dumb luck. So, unless your equipment is exactly the same as the reviewer owns, and you know for a fact that you personally like the same things he does - or you really trust his judgment - save your money. Instead of spending $50 or $100 for a tube that cost an extra buck when it was new, go on eBay (or to your local tube supplier) and buy a whole handful of different tubes for $5 or $10 each... and listen to them in YOUR equipment... and decide for yourself which one sounds best with YOUR equipment. (The one he's selling for $150 is NOT "better" than the $5 one; it just sounds better TO HIM - IN HIS PARTICULAR EQUIPMENT.) If you really like tubes, then finding out for yourself should be half the fun. If not, then, by all means, pay someone else a lot of money to do it for you. Odds are finding a $5 treasure for yourself will make you a lot happier than finding a $150 lump of coal the hard way.  In fact, even if you trust that salesman, and he does have the same amp you do, and you're pretty sure that his $150 tube will actually sound good in your amp, wouldn't it still be more fun to find a real treasure in a $50 batch of tubes than it would be to pay full price? Anybody can find a really nice diamond at Tiffany's for $50,000 - but where's the fun in that - even if you can afford it?  Incidentally, 12AU7 was one of the most common and most popular tubes EVER. (They also happen to perform very well.) You can find a huge selection of NOS ones for sale on eBay - for as little as $1 or $2 each (by the handful). You can also buy new ones for as little as $10 to $15. If you avoid falling into the "ridiculously overpriced rare vintage variations trap, you can have a lot of fun with them for a not unreasonable amount of cash. (In fact, if you have a few friends who can also use them, buy a dozen sets cheap and pass 'em around... and don't be too surprised if everyone finds a different treasure in the pile  ) |
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Post by soundofrockets on Sept 13, 2014 1:17:49 GMT -5
Keith this is the best post on emotiva forums so far - In my opinion with my iPad in my home.
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