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Post by smfins on Oct 29, 2014 22:33:32 GMT -5
Boomzilla, for some reason, my question is buried inside your last paragraph of your post I quoted. Its regarding placement of the acoustic panels. Thanks for any input.
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Post by Axis on Oct 29, 2014 23:07:05 GMT -5
bluemeanies, a few years ago there was a Thread over at AVSForum where a guy was on a journey to find his ultimate speaker. It was a huge Thread and he reported his findings of maybe a dozen speakers he went and auditioned. When he got to the Veracity HT3's I started to pay attention and started doing my own research on them. You know Jim Salk builds the speakers and Dennis Murphy designs the crossover. I was impressed with the drivers and the woodwork and just thought they were a great value for the then price of around $3,400. The OP did buy the HT3's and had Jim build the cabinets square because his wife thought they looked like coffins. I think they are beautiful either way. I have never heard them but with all the reviews I have read since I would buy them without hearing them. I know that sounds crazy to some but when I feel I have done enough research on something and I got a very good feeling about something, I have no fear to go with my gut feeling.
I love the Big B&W's. When I was over in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia they had these Audio stores where price was no object. I listen everything and they had a lot of great speakers but they had these I think B&W 801D's (it was 23 yrs ago) that blew me away. I had a friend when I was growing up that had some JBL 300's and just the same they had this presence that you just feel the music. I think I would like the Veracity HT3 for the same reason.
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Post by restless on Oct 30, 2014 5:12:21 GMT -5
I just went through the same process, thinking about upgrading my B&W 704 speakers. Looked at the Golden Ear One for several weekends and almost bought them, and also got a deal on some B&W 803D newest gen floor models.... Had the money in place, ready to purchase... and then listened to my current system, with the XSP1 for 2 channel, and the XMC-1 for multichannel when the neighbors were gone, and just listened to what I had for a couple hours at higher volumes. Found it hard to justify $9K for a speaker upgrade.
May give in to my impulse for the 803D, but trying not to. Also, waiting now until Dirac is available, before jumping to new speakers.
Biggest question, is the difference in speakers worth 7-9K to you??
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Post by bluemeanies on Oct 30, 2014 6:32:32 GMT -5
I just went through the same process, thinking about upgrading my B&W 704 speakers. Looked at the Golden Ear One for several weekends and almost bought them, and also got a deal on some B&W 803D newest gen floor models.... Had the money in place, ready to purchase... and then listened to my current system, with the XSP1 for 2 channel, and the XMC-1 for multichannel when the neighbors were gone, and just listened to what I had for a couple hours at higher volumes. Found it hard to justify $9K for a speaker upgrade. May give in to my impulse for the 803D, but trying not to. Also, waiting now until Dirac is available, before jumping to new speakers. Biggest question, is the difference in speakers worth 7-9K to you?? "Biggest question, is the difference in speakers worth 7-9K to you??" Let's face it listening to a variety of speakers is all subjective to the listener as to how they sound. What I might hear in one you might dislike or not hear at all. I have heard my 804S side by side with Focal and the 804D and there was a significant difference. What I mean by that statement is that my ears heard the difference and at my age that is saying something. However I will admit that I have never listened to my speakers with a quality preamp. I am contemplating that now. Purchasing the XSP1 for a trial run and see what it can do in my system with the 804S speaker. Saying that, I do believe the adage "garbage in garbage out". Filtering sound thru a good to great preamp means nothing if you have sub par speakers. Please do not misunderstand I do not think that the 804S are sub par. I am writing in general terms. In my case would a $10,000 preamp make the difference? Would the under a thousand dollar XSP1gen2 make the grade? I think that is how I will have to handle my situation. Honestly what I am hearing now is NOT terrible but I think I can do better. The search for perfection never ends. |
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Post by bluemeanies on Oct 30, 2014 12:18:05 GMT -5
...Can the XSP1gen2 be a reliable preamp capable of good hi-rez playback. Yes. It won't do multi-channel, but for stereo (regardless of resolution), it will work fine. Boom...as you well know there are hundreds of preamps out there. I never had a preamp and now I find myself in a position where I will need one. Just upgrading my speakers will not be enough if I chose to do so. While the XSP1 has gotten good reviews my gut feeling is that the XSP1GEN2 cannot make silk out of a sows' ear. As I have mentioned I have listened to my 804S beside the 804D and 803D and there was a noticeable difference. All three speakers were connected to the Integra 80.3 and the Integra amp. There was no difference in sound coming from my 804S. I do believe the Integra is a better processor in multi channel and 2channel then my Outlaw990. Saying that (in your opinion) how could the XSP1 DRAMACTICLY improve my 804S speakers? I am not trying to be arguemenitive. I am just relating to you my experience with comparing my speakers and others with a better processor. Realizing a processor is different than a preamp, wouldn't you agree that from my experience noted above that it would take more than just a preamp especially the XSP1 to improve 2channel playback? What in your opinion as far as a preamp is out there that is a lot more costly than the XSP1 but yet the XSP1 outperforms. Thanks |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 30, 2014 14:56:50 GMT -5
Hi bluemeanies - To answer your two questions: 1. No, I don't expect ANY preamp to "dramatically" improve your speakers. That said, some preamps DO sound better than others. For unlimited $$, I have found that I really liked the sound of both Audio Research and McIntosh tube preamplifiers. What I don't like about them is that they don't do bass management. In other words, I have to split the signal either up or down stream of the preamp to get signals to my subwoofer and to limit the low frequencies going to the main speakers. I am assuming a 2.1 stereo system here, by the way. The Emotiva XSP-1, G2 has four things going for it. First, it costs less than half than any Audio Research or McIntosh unit. Second, it does bass management (without any frequency markings, but it does do it). Third, it has tone controls if you need them. And fourth, it comes with a 30-day return period, so if you don't like it, you don't have to keep it. And a word about that return period... The preamp gets better sounding (MUCH better sounding, IMHO) after a few weeks of use, so don't be too eager to return it - USE the whole trial period before you decide. 2. What preamps does the Emotiva XSP-1, G2 outperform? I can't say, because I haven't owned a LOT of preamps in many years. What I might say is that preamps break down into two camps: Tube preamps and solid state preamps. Do you know which you prefer? If not, buy a cheap tube buffer (I recommend the Yaqin SD-CD3 for under $200). Plug it in before your power amps. Like the effect? Then you're probably a tube guy! Condolences - Really good tube preamps are more expensive than really good solid-state ones. I've always been reluctant to use a preamplifier because my theory was that any extra electronics between the source and the power amp were, by definition, bad electronics. Once again DYohn hammered me again and again pointing out the virtues of a preamplifier - It provides input switching - it provides analog volume control - it provides robust output buffer amps capable of driving any length of interconnect or any power amp. Stubborn as I am, I tried a few preamps - the Emotiva USP-1, the XSP-1, G1, and now the XSP-1, G2 (twice). I also tried the Audio Research LS-2B (a tube-solid-state hybrid preamp), and found that, of the bunch, I've preferred the XSP-1, G2 with my system. I profoundly did NOT like it right out of the box, but it has grown on me... Compared to using the outputs (either balanced or un) of my Oppo BDP-105 directly into my power amps, the XSP-1 provides more "tone" to the music. At first, I thought that the XSP was taking away some of the treble, but over time, it has opened up and "bloomed." Either that, or my ears have become accustomed to the sound, focusing on what is right and not noticing what isn't (Mr. Yohn would probably say that the latter is more likely). If there is an audio dealer that will loan you equipment to try out, take some preamps home. See if any are da shizz to your ears. If so, you have your answer. OTOH, you've nothing to lose by trying the XSP-1. If you buy at the sale price, you can't lose. If you buy at full price, you still have 30 days to return it if you don't like it. If you DO like the Emotiva preamp, then you've saved boucoup! Finally, the best advice I can give you is to "don't obsess over it." I've done that myself and it detracts from the joy of the hobby. Real life is important - People live, love, are born, and die every day. In the grand scheme of things, music is a lovely enhancement to life, but its reproduction is less important than opening yourself to the beauty around you (including music). Now the rest of the Loungers can start throwing stale vegetables & fruits at me! LOL I deserve no less, but my advice in this post still stands. Happy hunting! (and I NEVER consider you argumentative) Cordially - Boomzilla |
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Post by garbulky on Oct 30, 2014 15:11:03 GMT -5
Give it a go bluemeanie. The XSP-1 doesn't weigh a whole lot so you won't be out tons of money on return shipping - which I predict you aren't going to have to  I didn't expect pre-amp-s to make a difference but for larger amps, it did. The XSP-1 stregnthens up the sound and increases dynamics and solidifies the soundstage better. I imagine it has an improved analog stage over DAC units. (But I have no factual knowledge to back that up). I figure, the best a pre-amp can do is make it sound exactly the same as DAC direct to power amp. But I have since found it sounds better with a dedicated (good) pre-amp. Maybe it has to do with the interaction with the power amp vs how the DAC does it. Edit: For instance, drum hits sound much closer to drum hits. Ever heard a drum hit on your music and you just know it's a reproduction of it? That's because there isn't enough dynamics. For instance, there is a slight smearing or slowness in the rise of the peak and fall. I just thought that's how it was supposed to be - either recorded or the limits of my speaker. But it wasn't. The system is more capable than I realized. Same goes for things like trumpets, or when things get realyl congested with lots of instruments and the volume rises, instead of a slight mush, the XSP-1 tends to hold things better in general and provide the dynamics, solidity and speed required. Better than DAC/processor direct. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 30, 2014 15:12:25 GMT -5
Boomzilla, for some reason, my question is buried inside your last paragraph of your post I quoted. Its regarding placement of the acoustic panels. Thanks for any input. Hi smfins - The placement varies by room. The scientific answer is that the "first reflection points" between the speakers and you (bouncing off the back, side, and ceiling) are the most important places to use damping. In my room, that wasn't feasible. What I did have, however, was a large sheetrock wall behind the speakers and another immediately behind the listening position. I put my absorbers behind and between the speakers (on the wall behind them) and another behind the listening couch. It isn't textbook, it isn't perfect, but MY what a difference it made! I then got ambitious and bought MORE pads. I put them on the first-reflection ceiling point, on the first-reflection wall points, and you know what? NO DIFFERENCE! Go figure... So based on my experience, I'd say that the first panels you put up are the most important in changing the sound. My first panel set DID cure the slap echo. Before panels, I could clap my hands in that room and REALLY notice echoes. After the first panels, there's little or no echo. So for a small expense, I got a huge improvement. Now, that said, different rooms sound differently. So my experience may not transfer to your room. You'll just have to experiment. Best of luck! Boom |
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FLcanuck
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Post by FLcanuck on Oct 30, 2014 15:30:14 GMT -5
Hey Axis I was looking at the Veracity HT3. An excellent well made speaker. That said I have never listened to it. There are no stores in the area that sell this speaker nor are there any SALK distributors for there speakers. The company is located in the Pontiac Michigan area. Not exactly around the corner for me personally. However I am tempted to fly out there if they would refund me my air fair if I purchased a pair of their speakers. I doubt that will happen. The second option is to wait for an audio show next year that will have the SALK speaker on display. You should check with Jim at Salk - he has (or at least used to) a stable of owners that will allow a potential customer to visit their home for a listen. You might get lucky and have someone fairly close to you. You might also check in at the Salk speaker forum over at AVS - there are also some owners there that might offer up a listen. |
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Post by smfins on Oct 30, 2014 21:07:06 GMT -5
Thanks Boom, What I'm wondering is if the first reflection point on the side walls is effected by towing the speakers in. Ive used the mirror trick to find the spots, but I'm just thinking if the tweeters arent facing straight ahead it would change the location. Any idea? Boomzilla, for some reason, my question is buried inside your last paragraph of your post I quoted. Its regarding placement of the acoustic panels. Thanks for any input. Hi smfins - The placement varies by room. The scientific answer is that the "first reflection points" between the speakers and you (bouncing off the back, side, and ceiling) are the most important places to use damping. In my room, that wasn't feasible. What I did have, however, was a large sheetrock wall behind the speakers and another immediately behind the listening position. I put my absorbers behind and between the speakers (on the wall behind them) and another behind the listening couch. It isn't textbook, it isn't perfect, but MY what a difference it made! I then got ambitious and bought MORE pads. I put them on the first-reflection ceiling point, on the first-reflection wall points, and you know what? NO DIFFERENCE! Go figure... So based on my experience, I'd say that the first panels you put up are the most important in changing the sound. My first panel set DID cure the slap echo. Before panels, I could clap my hands in that room and REALLY notice echoes. After the first panels, there's little or no echo. So for a small expense, I got a huge improvement. Now, that said, different rooms sound differently. So my experience may not transfer to your room. You'll just have to experiment. Best of luck! Boom |
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Post by bluemeanies on Oct 30, 2014 21:36:05 GMT -5
If there is an audio dealer that will loan you equipment to try out, take some preamps home. See if any are da shizz to your ears. If so, you have your answer. OTOH, you've nothing to lose by trying the XSP-1. If you buy at the sale price, you can't lose. If you buy at full price, you still have 30 days to return it if you don't like it. If you DO like the Emotiva preamp, then you've saved boucoup!
Finally, the best advice I can give you is to "don't obsess over it." I've done that myself and it detracts from the joy of the hobby. Real life is important - People live, love, are born, and die every day. In the grand scheme of things, music is a lovely enhancement to life, but its reproduction is less important than opening yourself to the beauty around you (including music).
Now the rest of the Loungers can start throwing stale vegetables & fruits at me! LOL I deserve no less, but my advice in this post still stands.
Happy hunting! (and I NEVER consider you argumentative)
Cordially - Boomzilla[/quote]
Boom....true words you have spoken. I need to take a break I am laboring over this decision about preamps more than I am speakers. In the speaker realm after reading and doing some listening I am sticking with my choices of the B&W 804D and the Focal. I was listening to the Focal this pass Tuesday and I am sorry I forget the series number. I like both speakers and the week before I was able to listen to the B&W803D. All great speakers in my opinion. One speaker I have not heard is the Salk Veracityht3 which I am interested in for music listening. This speaker regrettably I can only hear at audio shows that the owner chooses to display his beautiful handcrafted speakers.
I have to take a breath and realize that it will be a few months before I can make any decision.
Thanks Boom for your take on this and also giving me a reality check.
I probably will not post about this subject until I am sure I have made a firm decision on speakers at the least. Investing in the XSP1 right now at a fantastic price of $888.00 I will have to pass up for the moment. In one of my posts I noted that I will be getting some funds in the near future but it will take a few more months. Not sure exactly when but it is happening and although I do have some money saved IMO I do not want to purchase the XSP1 while I have my 804S speakers.
Thanks again
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 31, 2014 6:13:09 GMT -5
Thanks Boom, What I'm wondering is if the first reflection point on the side walls is effected by towing the speakers in. Ive used the mirror trick to find the spots, but I'm just thinking if the tweeters arent facing straight ahead it would change the location. Any idea? No difference. The "first reflection point" remains the same regardless of toe-in. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 31, 2014 6:19:06 GMT -5
Hi bluemeanies - I agree with you that a "speakers first" approach is more likely to get you a compatible system. I kind of used that approach when stringing together my latest. The Axiom M80 speakers that I chose dictated that I'd want a subwoofer for my 2.1 system. The sub dictated that I either did volume control from the Oppo, which had bass management, or from a preamp that had it. That choice, primarily, drove me toward the XSP-1. For the (ultimately modest) amount of $$ that I have invested, and for my purposes, the system is a joy. Don't obsess, but feel free to keep posting. The rest of us learn from your decisions. Enjoy the upgrade! Boom |
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Post by jackpine on Oct 31, 2014 10:56:40 GMT -5
I've heard the XSP-1 G2 up against a Parasound Halo JC 2 and a Pass Labs X2.5 in the same system. I won't declare a winner but the XSP-1 G2 was competitive against them. The differences were subtle but clearly audible with different songs sometimes changing which I felt was best. The owner of the system kept the Emotiva and sold the others. Price was a factor and the Emotitva was a clear winner based on value. Since the comparison I've bought a XSP-1 G2 for myself to replace my Rotel.
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 31, 2014 19:16:09 GMT -5
Now THAT's useful info, jackpine - Thank you for posting it! The Parasound was the only serious alternative I considered before I bought my (third) XSP-1. At first, I was a bit antsy about it, but the thing has grown on me. Given 30 minutes to warm up, it has most excellent sound. Are there "better" preamps on the market? I'm sure there are. Are they available for less than 5x the price of the XSP-1? I doubt it. Further, were I planning on spending that much $$, I think I'd get better value for my money upgrading the speakers. As of now, every single part of my system hits WAY above its price range. Starting from the front, the Oppo is (to my knowledge) the best at what it does, regardless of price. The XSP-1 and XPA-1Ls are standouts for their performance/price ratio. My Axiom M80s can be bettered, but probably not in my room. Their vertical dispersion is limited, their horizontal dispersion wide, and they have no back wave (which my room does not do well with). My PowerSound Audio XV-15 does what it needs to do in my room with no fuss, no muss. I have friends with far (FAR) more expensive stereos & mine sounds every bit as good (even ignoring price). Of course, what works so well in my room may not be the best for others (speaking of speakers, here), but for the front end - I've got what I like! |
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Post by bluemeanies on Nov 1, 2014 8:34:52 GMT -5
I just went through the same process, thinking about upgrading my B&W 704 speakers. Looked at the Golden Ear One for several weekends and almost bought them, and also got a deal on some B&W 803D newest gen floor models.... Had the money in place, ready to purchase... and then listened to my current system, with the XSP1 for 2 channel, and the XMC-1 for multichannel when the neighbors were gone, and just listened to what I had for a couple hours at higher volumes. Found it hard to justify $9K for a speaker upgrade. May give in to my impulse for the 803D, but trying not to. Also, waiting now until Dirac is available, before jumping to new speakers. Biggest question, is the difference in speakers worth 7-9K to you?? Hey restless I was just re-reading your post. Justifying spending of $7-$9K for speakers to me is inconsequential. Money has been and always will be a relative thing in life. I have a very good friend of mine who in short he and his wife are well preserved financially. He lives in a house that is at least 6x's more valuable than my house. He has three cars. Mercedes, Lexus and a Subaru Outback. Travels literally around the world. He has been to Italy a dozen times since he has retired and currently he and his wife are in Japan visiting ther grandchildren. I could go on. Bottom line is that he will always be able to afford things and goes places that my wife and I cannot do. The big picture is that he is a very good friend whom I trust and have a good relationship. I am not one bit jealous of this guy and I value him as a friend dearly. On the other side there are people that are jealous what this guy has in tangible things. If you have the money to step it up a notch on your system and there is no one hunting you down to pay bills and the kids do not need a new pair of shoes I don't feel that guilt should step into it. Likewise if you as you say are listening to your system and you are satisfied with what you hear there is nothing wrong with being content. In my situation I have a processor that is 13 going on 14 years old with speakers that are 12 years old and I know I can do better in the two channel system arena. My 804S speakers are in pristine condition and they perform very well and would not disappoint someone who is starting out in 2channel or getting involved with Home Theater. I find myself more listening to 2channel as opposed to watching movies and TV on the big screen. I have enjoyed my system now for about 14 years and I absolutely have gotten my monies worth. I myself would eliminate the HT portion of my dedicated room and keep it strictly for 2channel stereo and put a 60" screen HD4K TV in my living room but the Mrs. who is a partner in this and does not want me to make that move just yet. I am not going into debt with this upgrade. Cash will be my tender and at the most I might make a small bill between $1500-$2000 maybe $0. I am considering B&W 804D, Focal (not sure what model I was looking at in store), 803D, and maybe the Salk Veracity HT3. Depending on what speaker I chose I will get a preamp. Funds are limited. I am also interested in used equipment on any of these pieces as long as they are in good working condition an astedicly in good condition. Glad you like your system and I bet it sounds pretty sweet based on your choice of equipment. |
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I didn't expect pre-amp-s to make a difference but for larger amps, it did. The XSP-1 stregnthens up the sound and increases dynamics and solidifies the soundstage better. I imagine it has an improved analog stage over DAC units. (But I have no factual knowledge to back that up). I figure, the best a pre-amp can do is make it sound exactly the same as DAC direct to power amp. But I have since found it sounds better with a dedicated (good) pre-amp. Maybe it has to do with the interaction with the power amp vs how the DAC does it. 
