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Post by brubacca on Oct 28, 2014 20:02:01 GMT -5
Can you mess up a room by putting too few treatments into a room? Or not placing them optimally?
My main listening room has a hard wood floor, a large bay window, a brick fireplace and a half wall opposite the fireplace. We really haven't decorated that room and I was going to go with 2 or 3 art panels from Gik Acoustics. They would obviously be dual purpose, pictures for the room and some room treatment. There is limited space for the panels. One panel would go between my speakers, but higher on the wall than the top of the speakers. The others would just be filler space where I could, but wouldn't necessarily be located at any reflection points. Looking at 2' x 4' panels.
Thanks for the input.
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Post by ansat on Oct 28, 2014 20:12:54 GMT -5
Reflection points are really needed. You won't mess anything up, but you will be treating the sound where there is not a listening position.
Tony
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novisnick
EmoPhile
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Post by novisnick on Oct 28, 2014 20:22:48 GMT -5
What he said, but also,,,,,,throw a rug down in fron of each speaker when you turn your gear on. That is a very cheap effect way to treat your room (hard surface floors are a reflection point.)
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Post by repeetavx on Oct 28, 2014 20:28:58 GMT -5
If you put up too many panels, you'll make the room "dead" sounding. Several of the panel manufacturers have a calculator to tell you how many panels you should put up.
Only experimentation will give you the results that are right for you.
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Post by pedrocols on Oct 28, 2014 20:35:55 GMT -5
I would suggest you experiment. I had to move one panel that was directly behind me because was killing high frequencies. I would like my room to be a little more "live" but it is difficult to obtain optimal results when your listening space is not a dedicated listening room.
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Post by brubacca on Oct 28, 2014 20:40:45 GMT -5
There is an area rug in the room, which is in front of the speakers. Unfortunately the main reflection points are the fireplace and half wall. I do have a couple of fabric chairs in front of the half wall.
Thanks for the help so far.
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Post by boomzilla on Oct 28, 2014 21:42:57 GMT -5
My experience is that a few make a HUGE difference. Adding more than a few triggers the law of diminishing returns. My advice is (based on your room size) plan to spend $300 to $400 on absorbers and see what they do for you. The second batch I bought did so little that I took them down.
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Post by deltadube on Oct 28, 2014 21:49:56 GMT -5
My experience is that a few make a HUGE difference. Adding more than a few triggers the law of diminishing returns. My advice is (based on your room size) plan to spend $300 to $400 on absorbers and see what they do for you. The second batch I bought did so little that I took them down. if your want pro results you looking at a dozen to one an half dozen panels and traps.. 1st reflection points are a great spot don't forget the reflection off the ceilings.. bass trapping is right up there as well treating all the corners.. tri corners and bi corners.. there is a ton of corners in a room.. 20 traps should get you there!!!! 4x2 8x2 6x2.. thick traps... really thick traps.. super traps.. lol
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Post by deltadube on Oct 28, 2014 22:20:43 GMT -5
oh yeah don't buy panels ...
make your own its ezzzzzzz and you save a bundle.. you could make a dozen traps for less than 500.00 ez..
4x2 by 6 inch thick..
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,213
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Post by novisnick on Oct 28, 2014 22:23:07 GMT -5
oh yeah don't buy panels ... make your own its ezzzzzzz and you save a bundle.. you could make a dozen traps for less than 500.00 ez.. 4x2 by 6 inch thick.. That be the " TrapMan "
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Post by deltadube on Oct 28, 2014 22:27:08 GMT -5
trap da bass if you love da bass!!!
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Post by ansat on Oct 28, 2014 22:27:19 GMT -5
My experience is that a few make a HUGE difference. Adding more than a few triggers the law of diminishing returns. My advice is (based on your room size) plan to spend $300 to $400 on absorbers and see what they do for you. The second batch I bought did so little that I took them down. Boom, while I agree that a few well placed absorbtion panels can make a huge difference. First reflection points are critical. Based on the hard surfaces, fireplace, bare walls and a half wall, this room opens to another room and the fact that the speakers have not been moved and pillows are not stacked in front of the fireplace. This is a shared room with some one else.
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Post by ansat on Oct 28, 2014 22:28:40 GMT -5
There is an area rug in the room, which is in front of the speakers. Unfortunately the main reflection points are the fireplace and half wall. I do have a couple of fabric chairs in front of the half wall. Thanks for the help so far. what are you trying to correct? How bad is it? And the fabric chairs will absorb alot. Tony
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Post by boomzilla on Oct 29, 2014 5:47:47 GMT -5
Y'all bring up excellent points. Every room is different (and mine more different than most).
The "average" room has huge problems with bass. Therefore, the recommendation to trap the corners (ceiling as well as floor) has great merit. My room may be unique in NOT having serious bass problems.
First-reflection points are the most important (in every room), but sometimes they're just not feasible to damp. With ceilings higher than the speaker-to-listener distance, the damping of ceiling reflections becomes less critical.
And finally, I strongly recommend NOT going for "pro results" with damping. A recording studio may need that level of damping, but a listening room is not a recording studio.
Of course, these are just my opinions, and it goes without saying that I may be wrong. The only statement that I offer as unassailable is that the first damping panels make the most difference.
Cheers - Boom
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Post by brubacca on Oct 29, 2014 6:46:52 GMT -5
It is a shared space, in fact it is our Den.
Definitely my right speaker has it's first reflection point damped by a big fabric chair. The other speaker has the brick fireplace as the first reflection point. The ceiling reflection point has a ceiling fan at the spot. Between the speakers is a fabric love seat.
I will try a panel or two and see how that goes. Sounds like I can't mess it up more that way. Also I think it was recommended to me before to place a pillow behind my head when listening and that actually helps.
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Post by lionear on Oct 29, 2014 10:39:21 GMT -5
You can pick up some ideas from here: www.michaelgreenaudio.com/rt.htmlMy suggestion is to put up non-permanent room treatments, so that you can experiment with different designs in different spots. A lot will depend on your speakers, room, furniture, etc. The biggest lesson I've gained (from experience and the Michael Green site) is to go with small panels in the corners behind the speakers, as well as between the speakers along the floor-wall seam. I also put a small panel at the first reflection point along the floor-wall seam (in front of the speakers). I didn't buy the RoomTune panels - I made my own.
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Post by deltadube on Oct 29, 2014 11:20:16 GMT -5
It is a shared space, in fact it is our Den. Definitely my right speaker has it's first reflection point damped by a big fabric chair. The other speaker has the brick fireplace as the first reflection point. The ceiling reflection point has a ceiling fan at the spot. Between the speakers is a fabric love seat. I will try a panel or two and see how that goes. Sounds like I can't mess it up more that way. Also I think it was recommended to me before to place a pillow behind my head when listening and that actually helps. you need a lot more than 1 or 2 panels boom.. pro results time to read up on some Ethan Winer check out gearsluts.com acoustics 101 ... www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/ here is a great link to acoustic 101 how to set up a room boom cause your statements are way out of line.. realtraps.com/art_room-setup.htm
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Post by deltadube on Oct 29, 2014 11:42:48 GMT -5
here is the front of a well treated room!!!! and the back! also notice the heavy duty bass trapping around whole room at the ceiling wall corners.. this is what you should be looking to do to make your room sound good.. 1 or 2 or 3 panel do very little.. cheers
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Oct 29, 2014 11:46:45 GMT -5
^ delta, I dunno, the flooring looks like it needs some help. I love the money seat!
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Post by deltadube on Oct 29, 2014 11:50:13 GMT -5
^ delta, I dunno, the flooring looks like it needs some help. I love the money seat! well in reality it is only a basic treated room set up there is more to do in there !!! SIDEBAR: HARD FLOOR, SOFT CEILING The following is from an exchange that took place in the rec.audio.pro newsgroup in May, 2003: Bill Ruys asked: Why it is recommended to have bare (un-carpeted) floors in the studio? One web site I visited mentioned that a bare floor was a prerequisite for the room design with diffusors and absorbers on the ceiling, but didn't say why. I'm trying to understand the principal, rather than following blindly. Paul Stamler: Carpet typically absorbs high frequencies and some midrange, but does nothing for bass and lower midrange. Using carpet as an acoustic treatment, in most rooms, results in a room that is dull and boomy. Most of the time you need a thicker absorber such as 4-inch or, better, 6-inch fiberglass, or acoustic tile, and you can't walk around on either of those. Hence the general recommendation that you avoid carpet on the floor and use broadband absorbers elsewhere. Lee Liebner: the human ear is accustomed to determining spatial references from reflections off of side walls and floor, and a low ceiling would only confuse the brain with more early reflections it doesn't need. Everywhere you go, the floor is always the same distance away from you, so it's a reference that your brain can always relate to. Top John Noll: Reasons for having wood floors: they look good, equipment can be rolled easily, spills can be cleaned up easily, provide a bright sound if needed, sound can be deadened with area rugs. Ethan Winer: In a studio room, versus a control room, a reflective floor is a great way to get a nice sense of ambience when recording acoustic instruments. Notice I said reflective, not wood, since linoleum and other materials are less expensive than wood yet sound the same. When you record an acoustic guitar or clarinet or whatever, slight reflections off the floor give the illusion of "being right there in the room" on the recording. It's more difficult to use a ceiling for ambience - especially in a typical home studio with low ceilings - because the mikes are too close to the ceiling when miking from above. And that proximity creates comb filtering which can yield a hollow sound. So with a hard floor surface you can get ambience, and with full absorption on the ceiling you can put the mike above the instrument, very close to the ceiling, without getting comb filtering. Dave Wallingford: I've always preferred wood floors for a few reasons: 1) It's easier to move stuff around, 2) You can always get area rugs if you need them, And the main reason: 3) Pianos sound like crap on carpet. Top "Treating 30 percent of a room's surface area will improve the room far more than treating only 5 percent." vs 1 or 2 panels is max return lol.. ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html
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