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Post by rossonero3 on Nov 20, 2014 9:15:15 GMT -5
If 'high speed' HDMI cables under the current spec of 1.4 (a,b,c etc) can pass 3,840x2,160 pixels at up to 30 frames per second and 4,096x2,160 at 24 frames per second, wouldn't that mean that the fusion 8100 can pass thru a 4k signal? in other words, without advertising "4k pass-through" like all the other commercial brands are doing, doesn't it do it by default? Also, does anyone know specifically what spec of HDMI 1.4 the fusion is? 1.4a, b, c, ?
One reason why i ask this question is because i will be purchasing a new TV within the next 3-6 months and see know reason why not to buy a 4k TV since prices have dropped considerably, just look at the new Vizio lineup, whether they are 'great' TV's or not, they start at $999 for a 50".
I'm looking to upgrade my AVR soon and don't really have the cash to go all in for separates, so the fusion at just under $500 is my top choice, as to me the sound quality is the most important first, then everything else.
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Post by Priapulus on Nov 20, 2014 9:39:43 GMT -5
I forget the details, but I seem to remember that the 4k specification, or HDMI 2 spec, or new HDCP spec hadn't solidified. So many of the new 4k TV's and processors might not work correctly in the future. I would hold off buying a new 4k TV, unless you are absolutely certain it's specifications are to up to date, be leery of their claims.
sincerely
/b
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Post by rossonero3 on Nov 20, 2014 9:46:04 GMT -5
I forget the details, but I seem to remember that the 4k specification, or HDMI 2 spec, or new HDCP spec hadn't solidified. So many of the new 4k TV's and processors might not work correctly in the future. I would hold off buying a new 4k TV, unless you are absolutely certain it's specifications are to up to date, be leery of their claims. sincerely /b Ok, so lets say i wait another year to buy a TV and 4k TV's are the norm, just like 1080p Tv's are now…i still need to know how the Fusion 8100 and it's HDMI 1.4 spec will handle this now and in years from now. |
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Post by rossonero3 on Nov 20, 2014 10:59:26 GMT -5
Ok…so Emotiva tech says that this receiver will NOT pass a 4k signal….that blows.
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Post by broncsrule21 on Nov 20, 2014 11:17:25 GMT -5
If it did, I'm sure they would be advertising it to did so. No expert here, but I think that is part of the HDMI 2 spec.
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Post by jmilton on Nov 20, 2014 11:41:36 GMT -5
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Post by rossonero3 on Nov 20, 2014 13:50:12 GMT -5
Thanks…this is super frustrating right now as i really want to buy some new equipment this year, especially a new AVR…not sure what to do at this point.
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Post by fusioneer on Nov 20, 2014 13:58:28 GMT -5
I saw this when I bought mine, but gave it a big shrug. 1080p is good enough for me for a long time; by the time I get a new TV *and* content, I'll likely want something else. Sometimes it's worth paying smaller prices twice than trying to stay at the forefront of the curve.
If 4K does happen for you, an interim solution is to use a splitter to run HDMI to your TV separately. 4K watching will be rare enough (blu-ray only?) that this shouldn't be a big deal.
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Post by rossonero3 on Nov 20, 2014 14:30:43 GMT -5
I saw this when I bought mine, but gave it a big shrug. 1080p is good enough for me for a long time; by the time I get a new TV *and* content, I'll likely want something else. Sometimes it's worth paying smaller prices twice than trying to stay at the forefront of the curve. If 4K does happen for you, an interim solution is to use a splitter to run HDMI to your TV separately. 4K watching will be rare enough (blu-ray only?) that this shouldn't be a big deal. Thanks, i pretty much agree with what you are saying, and yes just the audio could be sent separately to the Fusion i guess. The funny thing is that i don't expect to be watching 4k anytime soon, i just feel like the prices warrant buying a 4k TV this year (Black Friday?) over a 1080p set, even if it's only used for 1080p content for the time being...i just feel strange about buying a new AVR that is not fully 4k compatible. What i'd like to know is also, even if i bought say a new sony, denon, yamaha etc, that say they are 4k pass through or even 4k upscaling, as far as i know, none of these brands have HDCP 2.2 anyways, so if the industry adopts that standard these current AVR's won't be able to process the content anyways, true? |
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Post by fusioneer on Nov 20, 2014 14:42:19 GMT -5
No idea, but it sounds like another episode in the giant HDCP clusterfk is upon us.
Btw, by "good enough" I also mean that I can't see how it would measurably improve quality even if the ecosystem does catch up. 1080p is pretty much perfect as far as I can tell even with really good contacts, and I can't / don't want to get a much bigger TV in my current place. Or a bigger place.
Just tell yourself that the prices "warranted" (i.e. were reasonable) buying a 4k TV, but on the receiver side things aren't there yet.
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Post by Gary Cook on Nov 20, 2014 15:08:10 GMT -5
Not all 4K is equal, my understanding is that there are processors that will pass 4K @ 30 fps but not 4K @ 60 fps. It's to do with bandwidth, from memory HDMI 1.4 can pass 30 fps but HDMI 2 is required for 60 fps. So it's a question of how many blurays you are going to be able to buy, actually that should be want to buy, that are 4K 60 fps?
BTW, you would probably get a better response to the question if you described it better in the topic "just wanted to clear this up" is not very descriptive. Perhaps something like "Fusion 8100 & 4K" would attract the video experts.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by rossonero3 on Nov 20, 2014 15:42:55 GMT -5
Edited thread title
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Post by 2muchht on Dec 1, 2014 23:39:38 GMT -5
I forgot what HDMI chips the Fusion is using, but if it is the same ADI set from the UMC-200 (and, if I recall the XMC) it may pass 2160/30p with 8-bit color. That is doable with most HDMI 1.4 products. HOWEVER, once you go to anything with 2160/60p, as will be the case for sports (e.g. "ESPN-UHD" when it comes) you'll need at least HDMI 2.0 to pass it through. THEN, layer on HDCP 2.2. Any 4K/UHD capability the Fusion might have is quite limited.
Virtually every current (2015 model year) display will have at least one HDMI 2.0 input as well as at least one with HDCP 2.2. Even the rather impressive Vizio "P-Series" have them. The question becomes one of the HDMI 2.0's bandwidth and clock speed. At ~9Gbps you can do 2160/60p with 4:2:0 sampling and 8-bit color. That is what the Sony and Onkyo AVRs do along with HDCP 2.2 on some inputs. Denon, Marantz, Pioneer and Yamahahaha go all the way to 18Gbps which means that you can pass 2160/60P with 4:4:4 sampling using 8-bit, 4:2:0 up to 16-bit or 4:2:2 up to 12-bit. Great, but the downside is that since they use Panasonic's HDMI chips there is no HDCP 2.2, which the Silicon Image chips in the Sony and Onkyo do have.
It ain't fun if you're looking at an AVR or SSP right now.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 1, 2014 23:44:47 GMT -5
I forgot what HDMI chips the Fusion is using, but if it is the same ADI set from the UMC-200 (and, if I recall the XMC) it may pass 2160/30p with 8-bit color. That is doable with most HDMI 1.4 products. HOWEVER, once you go to anything with 2160/60p, as will be the case for sports (e.g. "ESPN-UHD" when it comes) you'll need at least HDMI 2.0 to pass it through. THEN, layer on HDCP 2.2. Any 4K/UHD capability the Fusion might have is quite limited. Virtually every current (2015 model year) display will have at least one HDMI 2.0 input as well as at least one with HDCP 2.2. Even the rather impressive Vizio "P-Series" have them. The question becomes one of the HDMI 2.0's bandwidth and clock speed. At ~9Gbps you can do 2160/60p with 4:2:0 sampling and 8-bit color. That is what the Sony and Onkyo AVRs do along with HDCP 2.2 on some inputs. Denon, Marantz, Pioneer and Yamahahaha go all the way to 18Gbps which means that you can pass 2160/60P with 4:4:4 sampling using 8-bit, 4:2:0 up to 16-bit or 4:2:2 up to 12-bit. Great, but the downside is that since they use Panasonic's HDMI chips there is no HDCP 2.2, which the Silicon Image chips in the Sony and Onkyo do have. It ain't fun if you're looking at an AVR or SSP right now. Tell me about it! Currently my PC is a bottleneck, offering somewhat jerky performance at 1080p video. It would probably faint trying to even process 4k video. It wold require both a video and processor upgrade. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Dec 2, 2014 3:44:16 GMT -5
I've found that every 4 to 5 years I have had to update the AVR's, well the audio and/or video processor part anyway. It's the main reason why I went to separates, that and superior sound of course. With the standards, 4K, HDCP, compression, Atmos, Auro, DTS-UHD etc in a state of change, not yet determined or locked in. Plus the time lag in source material volume my guess is my UMC-200, which is almost 2 years old, will be just about due for updating in the 2 or 3 years that it's going to take.
Cheers
Gary
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Dec 2, 2014 7:39:11 GMT -5
So what that it doesn't pass 4k. What 4k native sources are out now? The 4k sets are only taking 1080p and upscaling anyway. When 4k players come out they will have dual outs anyway just like 3D did when it first came out. Last I checked sound is still not "4K" so anything current can still be used.  |
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Post by rossonero3 on Dec 2, 2014 10:35:05 GMT -5
How many of you, whether or not you have a Fusion or other processor, run all your HDMI components into the AVR vs TV?
Years ago (about 7 i think) when i wired my system, i decided to run the cable box HDMI to the TV and digital optical out to the AVR so we would have the option of having just the TV audio or full surround sound for normal everyday broadcast TV. The other components like Apple TV, DVD or BRP etc all run into the AVR only.
So why not continue to bypass the AVR's video processing for years to come? What would be the downside to this if any just using digital coax or optical?
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Post by garbulky on Dec 2, 2014 10:42:36 GMT -5
So what that it doesn't pass 4k. What 4k native sources are out now? The 4k sets are only taking 1080p and upscaling anyway. When 4k players come out they will have dual outs anyway just like 3D did when it first came out. Last I checked sound is still not "4K" so anything current can still be used. PC's can output 4k and imo that's the biggest draw to 4k units out now like the VIzio 50 inch for a grand. However most units out now max out 30hz. There is a user here that uses a player that upsamples 1080p video to 4k. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Dec 2, 2014 11:47:11 GMT -5
So what that it doesn't pass 4k. What 4k native sources are out now? The 4k sets are only taking 1080p and upscaling anyway. When 4k players come out they will have dual outs anyway just like 3D did when it first came out. Last I checked sound is still not "4K" so anything current can still be used. PC's can output 4k and imo that's the biggest draw to 4k units out now like the VIzio 50 inch for a grand. However most units out now max out 30hz. There is a user here that uses a player that upsamples 1080p video to 4k. The player upscaling to 4k is no different than the display doing it. As far as PC content can you do dual HDMI out? |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Dec 2, 2014 11:49:10 GMT -5
How many of you, whether or not you have a Fusion or other processor, run all your HDMI components into the AVR vs TV? Years ago (about 7 i think) when i wired my system, i decided to run the cable box HDMI to the TV and digital optical out to the AVR so we would have the option of having just the TV audio or full surround sound for normal everyday broadcast TV. The other components like Apple TV, DVD or BRP etc all run into the AVR only. So why not continue to bypass the AVR's video processing for years to come? What would be the downside to this if any just using digital coax or optical? For everything but blurays, no downside. Since blurays have HD audio tracks you will still need to connect them to the AVR, but a dual HDMI out player gives you both options. This is all just a conspiracy of the OEMs to make you buy new gear every 6 months. |
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