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Post by unsound on Dec 16, 2014 19:22:40 GMT -5
fusioneer, from your opening post I was reading that you were getting the frequencies below 80hz to the front left and right set to Large in All Stereo mode. I was reading that only the center channel was not getting frequencies below 80hz with center speaker set to small and crossover set @ 80hz. After reading recent replies I am a little confused about what is happening in All Stereo mode. Are you saying that in All Stereo mode with front left and right set to Large and center set to small and only center channel crossover set @ 80hz that the front left and right are not getting frequencies below 80hz ? They should if they are set to large regardless of the center set to small. You may need to address the center speaker placement that is causing the bad effects when low frequencies are applied. Do you get the full range of frequencies to the left and right mains and center when all three fronts are set to large with All Stereo mode? If you do, this is the route I would go to overcome the issue. I'm going to try and answer this on fusioneer's behalf. He is saying that content intended for the center channel below 80 Hz gets lost. He expects it to get routed to the LRs. The LRs get frequencies below 80 Hz but from Left and Right channel content and not from center channel content.
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Post by unsound on Dec 16, 2014 19:35:32 GMT -5
Just thinking about a multi channel source played "all stereo" makes my brain hurt. I'm not even sure why I would do it. With a multi channel source I would want the sound coming out of the speaker that it was coded (by the sound mixer/engineer) to come out of. That's not even "stereo", let alone " all stereo". It's more like DD or DTS or DPL etc which in my case is 5.1. Having a centre channel active in "all stereo" seems oxymoronic, I'd want all the left channel coded stuff to come out of all the left speakers and all the right channel coded stuff to come out of all the right speakers. I'm not sure how a centre channel fits in to that regimen. Whenever I use "all stereo", albeit not very often and only for parties, I have all speakers set to large, no centre and no sub woofer. Obviously I'm missing something here. Cheers Gary My understanding is that "All Stereo" is different from "Stereo" when you want output out of more than just the 2 LR channels. For example, a redbook CD will send 2 channel PCM but an SACD can send 5 channel PCM (Multi-PCM). You can play the Multi-PCM through just 2 speakers (Stereo) or you may want to play it through more than 2 speakers (All Stereo). Similarly, movie audio can be sent to the processor in DD+, DTS etc formats or as Multi-PCM. In this situation, a Center channel is definitely not out of place (you may still find fault with the term "All Stereo", but keep in mind that stereo doesn't mean only 2 channels - 2 channels is the minimum for stereophonic sound). If you are using "All Stereo" for parties, you will notice that even a 2 channel CD will cause all available speakers to output sound in this mode.
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Post by fusioneer on Dec 16, 2014 19:39:19 GMT -5
Just thinking about a multi channel source played "all stereo" makes my brain hurt. I'm not even sure why I would do it. With a multi channel source I would want the sound coming out of the speaker that it was coded (by the sound mixer/engineer) to come out of. That's not even "stereo", let alone " all stereo". It's more like DD or DTS or DPL etc which in my case is 5.1. Having a centre channel active in "all stereo" seems oxymoronic, I'd want all the left channel coded stuff to come out of all the left speakers and all the right channel coded stuff to come out of all the right speakers. I'm not sure how a centre channel fits in to that regimen. Whenever I use "all stereo", albeit not very often and only for parties, I have all speakers set to large, no centre and no sub woofer. Obviously I'm missing something here. Cheers Gary Yes. What you're missing is that All Stereo is a misnomer when applied to multi channel PCM signals (those that aren't encoded and displayed at MultiPCM in the info displays). It should more properly be called multi-channel or some such. It is actually the right mode to use for such signals, except for this problem. Nothing gets mixed down if you have all the speakers, but you do have full processing. Except for the LF part, it seems. There are only three alternatives: Direct, Stereo, All Stereo. The latter is the default, and it's the right one. None of the Dolby or DTS modes are available, for good reason. Edit: Remember, I have a signal generator that can hit any channel I want, so I know what I'm talking about here. All Stereo works like I'm describing.
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Post by fusioneer on Dec 16, 2014 19:52:19 GMT -5
After reading recent replies I am a little confused about what is happening in All Stereo mode. Are you saying that in All Stereo mode with front left and right set to Large and center set to small and only center channel crossover set @ 80hz that the front left and right are not getting frequencies below 80hz ? They should if they are set to large regardless of the center set to small. The front and right are not getting frequencies from the center below 80 Hz. They are getting their own LF. In every other mode they are getting the center LF as well, so this is intended functionaiity. Do you get the full range of frequencies to the left and right mains and center when all three fronts are set to large with All Stereo mode? If you do, this is the route I would go to overcome the issue. Yes. However, the center is physically incapable of reproducing good clean bass in its location, so this is not an option. I'll repeat that this is intended to be a bug report more than a discussion, although I'm less cranky about it than I was last night. I'd be a lot more pissed about it if I had a subwoofer and small mains and this problem also manifested there, which I'm willing to bet it does (or rather I'm 51/49 about it). Which is why I'm asking for you guys with subs to check this. On the bright side (for me) it would probably be an incentive for a quicker bug fix since my no-sub config is rare. I do get enough bass from the mains for an apartment, btw, and the room is rather quirky so more low bass would just cause more problems for little gain.
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Post by Axis on Dec 16, 2014 20:29:27 GMT -5
fusioneer, do you think that the HDMI 7.1 PCM Multi Channel signal is still a Multi Channel signal after selecting All Stereo mode. Do you think that there is center speaker content or do you think that the Fusion 8100 simply turns that PCM Multi Channel signal to a Two Channel Stereo signal?
From what I read PCM Multi Channel is a signal that has been decoded in the source player. Once it has been decoded the A/V receiver it is sent to can not decode the signal and can not process that signal. The only way it can remain Multi Channel is to bypass the surround processor and that is what Direct mode is for on all A/V receivers. I am starting to think that the UMC-200 and Fusion 8100 may be doing one better than most A/V receivers with performing Bass Management in Direct Mode.
I do not believe it is a bug that when you select the only other Sound mode possible which is All Stereo, that the signal remains Multi Channel and there is any center channel content. I believe the only way that the now Stereo signal can be used by the Fusion 8100 is in a way that does not allow for different size speaker settings and with crossovers. Just guessing here. Just trying to use some logic. I think you are asking something from the Fusion 8100 it was never designed to do. That is to take a Digital PCM Multi Channel signal that is already decoded and can not be surround processed and then turned into a Stereo signal and then require bass management in a center channel when there is no center channel content to manage.
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Post by yves on Dec 16, 2014 20:46:21 GMT -5
I just tested it with my UMC-200 using latest firmware. I created six 6 ch .wav files in SoX, one file for each channel (i.e. a 50Hz tone in the channel to be tested, silence in each one of the other five channels). Played the files in foobar2000 with WASAPI Event-style via HDMI on my UMC-200. Verified that the files have all been generated correctly, by looking at the Waveform seekbar component in my foobar2000. With my Center channel set to Small @ 80Hz, in All Stereo mode, the 50Hz tone is audible through my Front mains regardless of which file is playing. This is with the Sub set to None, the Front LR set to Large, and the Side LR set to Small. So I am unable to reproduce the problem you describe.
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Post by fusioneer on Dec 16, 2014 21:26:59 GMT -5
Axis, at the limits of my patience, here are my findings with a signal generator: All Stereo almost does what I want. It keeps the center channel separate and does not mix the HF fronts at all. Remember, this is me telling my computer to put frequency X through channel Y (any of the 8 channels) and listening to that speaker. As opposed to "trying to use some logic". All Stereo mixes the surrounds into the proper left or right speaker, in my 3.0 configuration. All Stereo applies EQ. Don't know where "can't process the signal" is coming from, but it seems very capable of the above. What it does then is drop the LF content on the floor. No other mode that I'm aware drops the LF content on the floor. That's one half of bass management. A receiver or processor should NEVER do that. The choices for such inputs are: Direct, Stereo, All Stereo. None of these give me all of: EQ, correct bass management, center channel. Which isn't too much to ask. This is a BUG. The Fusion was designed (or should have been designed) to do this. It's normal. It does pretty much this in every other mode. The LFE channel of a 7.1 signal is not routed to the mains either. I may have been confused about this before, but I've retested it and it's gone as well (but similarly present with Direct). Grrrr. This makes me think you guys with subs would have noticed this and it might be specific to a no-sub config. In the interest of actually advancing the issue, I won't respond to more messages to the effect of "All Stereo is the wrong mode to use" or "LF content from Small speakers should not be mixed to Large mains". These are both, as far as I'm concerned, a given. Now let's focus on exactly WHY the Fusion strips LF frequencies from the center channel and does not send them anywhere, and whether it can be fixed in firmware. Let's also focus on whether this affects people with Small speakers (crossed over) and subwoofer, which would be a much bigger group. And whether it affects the UMC-200.
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Post by fusioneer on Dec 16, 2014 21:32:03 GMT -5
I just tested it with my UMC-200 using latest firmware. I created six 6 ch .wav files in SoX, one file for each channel (i.e. a 50Hz tone in the channel to be tested, silence in each one of the other five channels). Played the files in foobar2000 with WASAPI Event-style via HDMI on my UMC-200. Verified that the files have all been generated correctly, by looking at the Waveform seekbar component in my foobar2000. With my Center channel set to Small @ 80Hz, in All Stereo mode, the 50Hz tone is audible through my Front mains regardless of which file is playing. This is with the Sub set to None, the Front LR set to Large, and the Side LR set to Small. So I am unable to reproduce the problem you describe. Thank you so much for checking yves ! It might be specific to the Fusion then, or my firmware which is a little later on the Fusion than the UMC. If you don't mind one more check, can you make sure that everything is actually being played in separate channels? For example, generate a 500Hz, center, wav, with the same procedure, and make sure you can only hear it from the center. To eliminate the possibility that the signal is stereo-ified somewhere along the way. Then go back and retest the 50hz center to make sure nothing changed since that first 50hz test.
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Post by yves on Dec 16, 2014 23:08:55 GMT -5
With the Center channel set to either Small @ 80Hz or Large, the 500Hz center wav plays back as silence because I do not own a Center channel speaker. If I change it back to None, I hear the 500Hz tone through my front mains. Verified that All Stereo is still selected in the Mode menu. I did not touch any other settings, and the 50Hz test still produces exactly the same results as before.
sox -r 44100 -b 16 -c 6 -n --norm=-3 center500hz.wav synth 1 sine 0 sine 0 sine 500 sine 0 sine 0 sine 0
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Post by fusioneer on Dec 17, 2014 15:38:00 GMT -5
Good news, everyone! (but me, that is) This bug does not affect setups with subwoofer, except insofar as Enhanced Bass is concerned. I connected a little powered speaker I had lying around to the subwoofer out and I was able to test this config. This is what happens: All Stereo does indeed send the missing LF to the subwoofer. If Enhanced Bass is On, All Stereo does NOT duplicate LF from small speakers or LFE track to the Large speakers. Direct mode does this, and so does Dolby D for other inputs. If I were to describe the problem simplified, it's that in All Stereo there's a missing "virtual wire" between LF below crossover and the Large left and right speakers, when the setup warrants it. This wire exists in every other mode. Unfortunately, All Stereo is the only reasonable mode to use for multi-PCM inputs. Also good news, as per yves's testing it seems that the bug does not affect UMC-200. yves, thanks again for the testing. I'd forgotten about your missing center, but the silence above crossover proves to my satisfaction that your output was multichannel all the way. What version UMC-200 do you have? My Fusion is 1.52.02.54, and the two share lineage as far as I know. I will edit the thread starter accordingly. Unfortunately, the fact that the subwoofer configs and the UMC-200 work properly makes me less hopeful that the bug will be fixed soon, because I'm a minority. Meanwhile, it's Direct mode and no EQ for me.
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Post by yves on Dec 17, 2014 16:46:28 GMT -5
Good news, everyone! (but me, that is) This bug does not affect setups with subwoofer, except insofar as Enhanced Bass is concerned. I connected a little powered speaker I had lying around to the subwoofer out and I was able to test this config. This is what happens: All Stereo does indeed send the missing LF to the subwoofer. If Enhanced Bass is On, All Stereo does NOT duplicate LF from small speakers or LFE track to the Large speakers. Direct mode does this, and so does Dolby D for other inputs. If I were to describe the problem simplified, it's that in All Stereo there's a missing "virtual wire" between LF below crossover and the Large left and right speakers, when the setup warrants it. This wire exists in every other mode. Unfortunately, All Stereo is the only reasonable mode to use for multi-PCM inputs. Also good news, as per yves's testing it seems that the bug does not affect UMC-200. yves, thanks again for the testing. I'd forgotten about your missing center, but the silence above crossover proves to my satisfaction that your output was multichannel all the way. What version UMC-200 do you have? My Fusion is 1.52.02.54, and the two share lineage as far as I know. I will edit the thread starter accordingly. Unfortunately, the fact that the subwoofer configs and the UMC-200 work properly makes me less hopeful that the bug will be fixed soon, because I'm a minority. Meanwhile, it's Direct mode and no EQ for me. Well, my UMC-200 is running on V1.52.02.47, which AFAIK is the latest. As for "...makes me less hopeful that the bug will be fixed soon, because I'm a minority." Based on my own, personal, experience, I can tell you that Emotiva tech support are part of what makes the company very proud, and, *righfully* so.
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Post by fusioneer on Dec 17, 2014 16:56:37 GMT -5
As for "...makes me less hopeful that the bug will be fixed soon, because I'm a minority." Based on my own, personal, experience, I can tell you that Emotiva tech support are part of what makes the company very proud, and, *righfully* so. Thank you yves -- I'll drink to that!
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