Chris
Emo VIPs 
Posts: 424
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Post by Chris on Jul 11, 2015 12:41:48 GMT -5
Hey Chris, I have a whole slew of stuff in the forums for weak bass / harsh highs. The issue I found was that on LE - The calibration file is not true. The official response from Lonnie was that the calibration file and Dirac LE curve were adjusted to work together to come up with what they found to be a pleasing sound. Simple put, the measurements your seeing on Dirac with the emotiva mic are not accurate representation and your end result will not be the +3 to -3 as indicated by the dirac target curve. To correct this, I generated a calibration file from my cross spectrum microphones and this got things much closer. On top of that, Socketman sent his microphone to cross spectrum and shared his calibration. Both can be found in my signature along with instructions on how to apply them to Dirac LE. If you want to customize the curve further, I recommend the full version. (I still use my calibration files with the full version when using the EMM-1). Tony Tony, thanks so much for taking time to respond. You have provided some great information. I just downloaded your calibration files and when I have time I will take another go at Dirac LE using your recommendations. Frankly, I have became so disenchanted with Dirac LE I just went back to my Preset 1 using manual measurements with a Rat Shack meter. Based on your comments, I am even further disappointed that Dirac LE performs so badly. I really had high hopes this time. I stand by original statement that the single biggest problem area for home Hi-Fi and Home Theater is the Bass (100hz down to 20hz) region and that should be the primary focus to get right. I would have been much happier if Dirac LE was range limited to just the lower frequencies and nailed the results. Instead I've got what I consider incorrect bass adjustments that I simply can hear without a computer to tell me and questionable high frequency adjustments I can live without. I've got really good Speakers - Martin Logan Vantages that sound very good in my room without any EQ because I have taken care to locate. I've got them three feet from the wall and they have plenty of room to breath. Even before I ran Dirac, I knew I had some room gain at 50 hz that I again measured manually with the rat shack meter. I also have an adjustment control on my Martin Logans centered at 30 hz which helps tame bass modes. I can do all this manually and get good results. Right now Dirac LE is not working for me. Everyone is saying how good the full Dirac is. That's great but I was sold on the idea that Dirac LE would get me in the ballpark. The money isn't really the issue, it's a drop in the bucket. It's the principle. I really think Emotiva should revisit this and take note of other people like me that are getting poor results. The way I see it Dirac LE should get you 80 to 90 percent the way there and Dirac Full should be the last bit of refinement. Right now Dirac LE is a disappointment and produces worst results than what I can do manually? What's the point of that? Why not add $100 to the price of the XMC-1 and include Full Dirac if that is the true solution. All that's been accomplished in my case is another example of how automated EQ systems do not work, which was my admittedly biased view before I began this exercise. -CB |
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Post by ansat on Jul 11, 2015 13:13:15 GMT -5
Hey Chris, I have a whole slew of stuff in the forums for weak bass / harsh highs. The issue I found was that on LE - The calibration file is not true. The official response from Lonnie was that the calibration file and Dirac LE curve were adjusted to work together to come up with what they found to be a pleasing sound. Simple put, the measurements your seeing on Dirac with the emotiva mic are not accurate representation and your end result will not be the +3 to -3 as indicated by the dirac target curve. To correct this, I generated a calibration file from my cross spectrum microphones and this got things much closer. On top of that, Socketman sent his microphone to cross spectrum and shared his calibration. Both can be found in my signature along with instructions on how to apply them to Dirac LE. If you want to customize the curve further, I recommend the full version. (I still use my calibration files with the full version when using the EMM-1). Tony Tony, thanks so much for taking time to respond. You have provided some great information. I just downloaded your calibration files and when I have time I will take another go at Dirac LE using your recommendations. Frankly, I have became so disenchanted with Dirac LE I just went back to my Preset 1 using manual measurements with a Rat Shack meter. Based on your comments, I am even further disappointed that Dirac LE performs so badly. I really had high hopes this time. I stand by original statement that the single biggest problem area for home Hi-Fi and Home Theater is the Bass (100hz down to 20hz) region and that should be the primary focus to get right. I would have been much happier if Dirac LE was range limited to just the lower frequencies and nailed the results. Instead I've got what I consider incorrect bass adjustments that I simply can hear without a computer to tell me and questionable high frequency adjustments I can live without. I've got really good Speakers - Martin Logan Vantages that sound very good in my room without any EQ because I have taken care to locate. I've got them three feet from the wall and they have plenty of room to breath. Even before I ran Dirac, I knew I had some room gain at 50 hz that I again measured manually with the rat shack meter. I also have an adjustment control on my Martin Logans centered at 30 hz which helps tame bass modes. I can do all this manually and get good results. Right now Dirac LE is not working for me. Everyone is saying how good the full Dirac is. That's great but I was sold on the idea that Dirac LE would get me in the ballpark. The money isn't really the issue, it's a drop in the bucket. It's the principle. I really think Emotiva should revisit this and take note of other people like me that are getting poor results. The way I see it Dirac LE should get you 80 to 90 percent the way there and Dirac Full should be the last bit of refinement. Right now Dirac LE is a disappointment and produces worst results than what I can do manually? What's the point of that? Why not add $100 to the price of the XMC-1 and include Full Dirac if that is the true solution. All that's been accomplished in my case is another example of how automated EQ systems do not work, which was my admittedly biased view before I began this exercise. -CB Hey Chris, I cannot disagree with anything you are saying, but I will chronicle the events looking back in hopes to ease your mind a little. When I first took my measurements and discovered the trouble with the calibration data, I was insistent that since it was wrong that my results were wrong. I spent countless hours digging into the data and determined that the microphone is decent mic and comparable to the ECM8000 and the UMM that I currently own. A member stumbled across the calibration file and I took the comparison and found that the results that I was hearing / measuring were directly in line with the calibration file. After working with emotiva and Dirac, my conclusion was emotiva calibrated the microphone incorrectly and this was causing the my unintended results of inaccurate input into Dirac. Now to emotiva's stance, Their stance was with the calibration file and the microphone, the target curve in Dirac was created to have a pleasing sound, not be accurate to the charts that Dirac produces. They also state that the issues that I brought do not reflect what they have seen in their feedback. I am sure that we are all experiencing the same results, but personal preference will have a high factor in what is right or wrong. This changed my perception a bit to that the results are inaccurate, but not wrong. If you were to take the graphs out of Dirac, then this would be no different then Audyssey's or YPAO's house curve. But given that the charts do exist, I still felt that a calibration file should be offered that gave accurate to the charts results. Thus the existence of the MATH cal that I created. (which is just some corrections to the low end and the expected difference between a 90 degree cal vs a on axis cal.) Now fast forward to today - At this point, I am grateful that emotiva has not asked me to remove the files from my signature and allow me to continue to help those who are chasing the results that I expected dirac to produce. While I do wish they would revisit their calibration and implement a accurate cal file to Dirac LE, I am just satisfied that they did not bake the calibration in and close the hole that we are using to make the corrections. But use either the math cal or the cross-spectrum file in my signature and be sure to follow the instructions and I suspect that the power of Dirac will be easily seen and I suspect, like myself, you will be purchasing the Dirac Full, if not only to support Dirac in their future endeavors. Tony |
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Post by modicen on Jul 11, 2015 18:07:51 GMT -5
Just want to say Tony, your the man! Thanks for all your work.
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Post by tbadalaty on Oct 26, 2015 19:03:39 GMT -5
Where exactly do I get the recalibration file for the mic. I have same subject issues with 2 psa3000se expected great things mainly bass management but am disappointed.
Thanks for the help
Troy
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Post by snafujg on Oct 26, 2015 22:23:39 GMT -5
They're in ansat's signature
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Post by grapeape on Nov 22, 2015 12:33:11 GMT -5
Tony - can you please re-upload your first post images. I am trying to tweak my Dirac settings and this looks like the best resource.
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Post by ansat on Nov 30, 2015 12:42:22 GMT -5
working on it this morning. had an issue with my cloud storage.... Killed all my images.
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Post by ansat on Nov 30, 2015 19:25:11 GMT -5
well, I can see the pictures again. not sure if anyone else can.
Tony
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Post by Thunderduck on Nov 30, 2015 21:41:56 GMT -5
well, I can see the pictures again. not sure if anyone else can. Tony Hi Tony,
Glad to see ya!!
I see X's where the pictures should be but that could be because of my settings I suppose.
Take care,
Steve
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Post by dust770 on Dec 1, 2015 3:34:53 GMT -5
I'm not seeing the pics either Tony. Also the Dirac cal files simply say, This item can't load right now.
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Post by ansat on Dec 1, 2015 9:43:20 GMT -5
I'm not seeing the pics either Tony. Also the Dirac cal files simply say, This item can't load right now. Thanks, i have a support ticket open with mocrosoft. It looks like the permissions are jacked up on my onedrive. Tony |
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Post by jackhammer on Jan 11, 2016 15:01:30 GMT -5
I'm now in the same boat with Chris, my first attempt at Dirac LE was crap plain and simple. Not only did it not sound too swift, but was about 10dB down to boot. I also didn't have good luck with my last system using Audyssey so I just thought it must be my ears that are out of cal.
Recently I upgraded speakers to M&K's S150(3ea)/SS150(4ea) + (Velodyne 15" servo sub) so I thought I'd give it one more shot. I purchased the Dirac full version along with a new mic (UMIK-1). The first thing I noticed was it was no longer 10dB down, but the bass was still anemic. If I pumped the sub channel up about 10-12dB it was close to where I like, but sounded off still. This time I went back into Dirac and pumped up the curtain(?) to give me that same kick in the pants, but was still falling off too soon. I like to feel a car door shut or when a horse runs by, so I guessed I needed to up the curtain up to around 250Hz? Then I realized I'm dinking around with this Dirac preset about the same way I manually do for Preset 1 and Preset 2, only with an auto upload feature. So right now I have the Dirac preset sounding just about as good as Preset 1 lol! Bass is still not as well rounded, and the center channel is too 'in your face' for my liking, but I'm getting there.
At the same time I'm setting up Preset 2 using REW. This one is a real challenge for me but I'm making progress... I've flattened out some peaks and valleys which is cool. Those I probably wouldn't have noticed while making adjustments by ear, but I sure enough noticed the difference after I flattened the section out. Understanding my room curve and my ear curve are also a challenge. I'm hoping after I finish with Preset 2(REW) and Dirac that my manually adjusted Preset 1 sounds bad.
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Post by ansat on Jan 13, 2016 21:59:10 GMT -5
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Post by jackhammer on Jan 14, 2016 23:38:49 GMT -5
I'm making progress... this time the only thing I changed was the sub gain. During the test screen I kept all the levels full right. At this point the sub blasts into full deflection on the meter, this time I pulled the gain down on the sub vs on the dirac live slider. IDK how or why but it sounds better. I kept the center curve alone, but pulled down the brightness to 60 (it was at 100) now it doesn't appear in your face as much. I took the fronts/sides curtains and raised the lowest frequency about 6db while leaving the mid and high alone. It now sounds better than my manually adjusted Preset 1. The only problem is it doesn't get loud enough. At about -5 it gets plenty loud, but not theater loud. Trying to up it a little more gets no result. I don't think it's the amp because 1) I tried putting a Haffler 500 on the fronts (no change) and 2) when I go Direct mode it will go loud enough to wake the dead... but that's 2.0 which is pointless with small fronts. The UPA-7 does pretty good imo... I just wish I could control the input sensitivity a little.
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Post by etc6849 on Feb 7, 2016 11:32:46 GMT -5
Hi Tony, I just made a large Owens Corning 703 bass trap out of 4 pieces wrapped in burlap. Each piece is 8" thick and 4 foot by 2 foot, making a nice 16" x 2' x 8' trap at the front of my room and changed my subs out to be co-located 12" subs each having two 12" drivers. I reran Dirac and got the attached after checking results in REW with a calibrated MiniDSP mic. Where to go from here? I am always chasing better and better performance, but I don't have room for stacked 18" subs as acoustic panels and bass traps take up a majority of my space. I also have everything is calibrated for one seat and have been using the default Dirac Live Full house curve and the calibrated MiniDSP mic. I will work on the house curve post of mine next. that should help get a more tailored result from Dirac. |
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Post by etc6849 on Feb 7, 2016 11:34:37 GMT -5
Attached is what I had before with dual SVS PB13 ultras. Couldn't fit a 16"x2'x8' bass trap up front before so what using poly fill covered by a felt blanket. I lost a little low frequency extension, but gained a lot of improvement in ringing around 30Hz and below (see previous post for new waterfall plot with co-located drivers). I think the co-located drivers helped reduce the ringing; too bad I didn't have space for stacked PB13-ultras. |
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Post by ansat on Feb 7, 2016 12:08:59 GMT -5
Attached is what I had before with dual SVS PB13 ultras. Couldn't fit a 16"x2'x8' bass trap up front before so what using poly fill covered by a felt blanket. I lost a little low frequency extension, but gained a lot of improvement in ringing around 30Hz and below (see previous post for new waterfall plot with co-located drivers). I think the co-located drivers helped reduce the ringing; too bad I didn't have space for stacked PB13-ultras. First of all, awsome job on getting it to where it is. Super impressed. Looking at the impulse, its likely your floor creating that early spike. But on the waterfall, it doesnt seem to be materializing into much. I am afriad I dont have much to suggest, you have a well controlled room with a really good response. Again. Awsome job. Tony |
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Post by etc6849 on Feb 7, 2016 12:42:26 GMT -5
Thanks for taking a look and for your complements. Means a lot coming from someone with your experience! Yeah, going with co-located/stacked drivers like I did was my last big "idea" that I thought would materialize into a real world difference and it did as the reduction in ringing shows. The only other thing I plan to try is adding some 8" thick corning 703 panels to build even more of a reflection free zone around the MLP. Right now about two feet of the side walls have only 4" thick foam (I bought this before I learned about acoustics); looks pretty though. I expect a slight improvement, but no where near the improvement of this last conquest. For $350 in raw materials, I figure I can always move them to the rear of the room if I don't see an improvement at the MLP. I would say my system as it stands sounds world class thanks to all the panels in there now. Probably better than 99% of the studios out there, but I'm not in the audio business to know for sure. Attached is what I had before with dual SVS PB13 ultras. Couldn't fit a 16"x2'x8' bass trap up front before so what using poly fill covered by a felt blanket. I lost a little low frequency extension, but gained a lot of improvement in ringing around 30Hz and below (see previous post for new waterfall plot with co-located drivers). I think the co-located drivers helped reduce the ringing; too bad I didn't have space for stacked PB13-ultras. First of all, awsome job on getting it to where it is. Super impressed. Looking at the impulse, its likely your floor creating that early spike. But on the waterfall, it doesnt seem to be materializing into much. I am afriad I dont have much to suggest, you have a well controlled room with a really good response. Again. Awsome job. Tony |
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bungbu
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 5 
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Post by bungbu on Feb 15, 2016 16:25:42 GMT -5
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Post by wilburthegoose on Feb 15, 2016 17:01:20 GMT -5
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